General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them? Rss Feed  
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2012-01-18 12:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

I would caution any first timer to weight the benefits of such a mega session vs. injury & recovery. It is the run part that is of concern. Perhaps for the first time you might want to dial back on the run portion (i.e. 1h swim/5 hr bike/1h run).


2012-01-18 4:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
Fred D - 2012-01-17 9:32 PM

I would change the run as I have found at my age long runs take a toll on my body. I prefer consistency in the run over a big run.

I would probably aim for a 1 hour swim with a 5 hour ride and perhaps 8-10 mile run which would be 1-1.25 hours range.

The reason I'm interested in this is that I really do think our ability to take in nutrition and perform on the bike is more affected by the swim than we think. I have struggled through this personally at IM despite having a high fitness level.

Lastly I aim for consistency but do like to try some new things each year and this sort of interests me.

ETA: I think I would not take long breaks between the swim and bike and run. I wouldn't race it, but rather get my fluids, change outfits etc. so maybe 15' or so?

Making this up as I type.


That's pretty much what I was thinking; shorter breaks and a shorter run. Fort most athletes who were looking at this, I would go with a much shorter run - max of about an hour.

Shane
2012-01-18 4:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
AtlantaBill - 2012-01-17 8:54 PM

Shane, I agree consistency over a long time is key.  But if someone has never done more than 5 or 6 hours of anything in one day, I think doing a Big Day will benefit them mentally, build their patience.  And if their pace is reasonable it will benefit them physically.



But where do you stop? What is an 8 hour day going to teach an athlete about a >12 hour race? Not to mention that many people who try this type of workout are likely to be new to the distance and very likely would have the fitness background or weekly volume to support this type of workout.

As I said, I think that this workout would work for some athletes - however, this would be a very limited group IMO.

Shane
2012-01-18 5:17 AM
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2012-01-18 6:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

No, I don't.  I agree with everyone else's comments re: recovery cost.  The closest I've done was during the larger volume weeks of my IM training, I did several Saturdays that were a 1 hour swim / 5+ hour bike brick.  The purpose was twofold:  I had a busy schedule, and it was the only time I could squeeze in another swim workout those weeks, and to test how I felt on a long bike after a swim similar to what I planned for the race.

I haven't coached anyone at the IM distance yet, but even for HIM training, I try to avoid scheduling a long bike and long run on adjacent days, much less in the same day.  It will just compromise the quality of training sessions in the next couple days too much.

2012-01-18 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
As already stated, the big knock on these workouts is the recovery time from them. At the very least, you're going to be shot for a few days afterwards, probably will feel sluggish for the next week. Picture doing a half-ironman - would you take recovery time afterwards? This is almost like doing 2 half-ironman's. Curious as to what his workouts call for in the week after these workouts? So do you want to take a week away from your normal training so you can do active recovery?

Definitely see the value in doing longish days and as for the idea of learning about nutrition, race-day execution, saddle sores, etc., isnt' that why you put in a race or two during your training?



Edited by runnerx 2012-01-18 11:02 AM


2012-01-18 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

I think that the workout as written is too much. For a faster athlete that is pretty close to Iron distance and what would be the point of doing your race in training? The recovery cost is huge as well. This is most certainly NOT a beginner workout by any stretch of the imagination.

IMO the swim is the most neglected and overlooked part of any triathlete's training. For sprint and olympic (and even HIM distance if you come from a swim background) you can "fake" your way through the swim and still have a good race. I am a huge advocate of the swim/bike brick especially for those athletes that don't come from a swim background. As much as people want to say "the swim is just a warm up" or "if you go easy you will be ok" the fact of the matter is 4400 yds is a long way to swim and it is going to deplete your energy reserves. You have to know how your body is going to react post swim on the bike in order to accurately design a nutritional strategy that will work. If you get out of the water and your HR is elevated 10-15 bpm over your normal cycling HR you are going to have a tough time taking in as many calories. This leads to getting behind nutritionally which doesn't end well, not to mention that you are essentially overpacing the bike to start which also never ends well.

A great race day simulation that I like to give my IM athletes is:

1 hour swim (preferably OWS) @ race pace

4.5/5 hour bike @ race pace/wattage/hr

30-45 min run off @ race pace/race HR

You are going to know in the first 30-45 min if you overpaced the bike, screwed up nutrition or both. The biggest cost for recovery is in the run so we'll limit that to the minimum time in order to test.

You can use the bigger bike/run bricks to test run nutrition/pacing over the 30-45 min mark as well as the stand alone long runs.

2012-01-18 11:54 AM
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2012-01-18 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
Rocket Man - 2012-01-18 9:52 AM

I think that the workout as written is too much. For a faster athlete that is pretty close to Iron distance and what would be the point of doing your race in training? The recovery cost is huge as well. This is most certainly NOT a beginner workout by any stretch of the imagination.

IMO the swim is the most neglected and overlooked part of any triathlete's training. For sprint and olympic (and even HIM distance if you come from a swim background) you can "fake" your way through the swim and still have a good race. I am a huge advocate of the swim/bike brick especially for those athletes that don't come from a swim background. As much as people want to say "the swim is just a warm up" or "if you go easy you will be ok" the fact of the matter is 4400 yds is a long way to swim and it is going to deplete your energy reserves. You have to know how your body is going to react post swim on the bike in order to accurately design a nutritional strategy that will work. If you get out of the water and your HR is elevated 10-15 bpm over your normal cycling HR you are going to have a tough time taking in as many calories. This leads to getting behind nutritionally which doesn't end well, not to mention that you are essentially overpacing the bike to start which also never ends well.

A great race day simulation that I like to give my IM athletes is:

1 hour swim (preferably OWS) @ race pace

4.5/5 hour bike @ race pace/wattage/hr

30-45 min run off @ race pace/race HR

You are going to know in the first 30-45 min if you overpaced the bike, screwed up nutrition or both. The biggest cost for recovery is in the run so we'll limit that to the minimum time in order to test.

You can use the bigger bike/run bricks to test run nutrition/pacing over the 30-45 min mark as well as the stand alone long runs.

 

I have a question about the 30-45 minute run, based on pacing/nutrition issues showing up during that time.  In my HIMs, its the second half of the run where those issues show up, so for me, the second hour.  I am not sure that they would show up in a 30-45 minute run.  Based on that, I think I see some value in a longer run for the Big Day.  But I definitely want to be conscious  of the injury risk/recovery cost.

2012-01-18 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

gsmacleod - 2012-01-18 2:34 AM
AtlantaBill - 2012-01-17 8:54 PM Shane, I agree consistency over a long time is key.  But if someone has never done more than 5 or 6 hours of anything in one day, I think doing a Big Day will benefit them mentally, build their patience.  And if their pace is reasonable it will benefit them physically.
But where do you stop? What is an 8 hour day going to teach an athlete about a >12 hour race? Not to mention that many people who try this type of workout are likely to be new to the distance and very likely would have the fitness background or weekly volume to support this type of workout. As I said, I think that this workout would work for some athletes - however, this would be a very limited group IMO. Shane

I also think the 90 minute "transition" breaks can defeat the goal of testing out your nutrition plan.

2012-01-18 12:15 PM
in reply to: #3997420

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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
kmac1346 - 2012-01-18 1:12 PM
Rocket Man - 2012-01-18 9:52 AM

I think that the workout as written is too much. For a faster athlete that is pretty close to Iron distance and what would be the point of doing your race in training? The recovery cost is huge as well. This is most certainly NOT a beginner workout by any stretch of the imagination.

IMO the swim is the most neglected and overlooked part of any triathlete's training. For sprint and olympic (and even HIM distance if you come from a swim background) you can "fake" your way through the swim and still have a good race. I am a huge advocate of the swim/bike brick especially for those athletes that don't come from a swim background. As much as people want to say "the swim is just a warm up" or "if you go easy you will be ok" the fact of the matter is 4400 yds is a long way to swim and it is going to deplete your energy reserves. You have to know how your body is going to react post swim on the bike in order to accurately design a nutritional strategy that will work. If you get out of the water and your HR is elevated 10-15 bpm over your normal cycling HR you are going to have a tough time taking in as many calories. This leads to getting behind nutritionally which doesn't end well, not to mention that you are essentially overpacing the bike to start which also never ends well.

A great race day simulation that I like to give my IM athletes is:

1 hour swim (preferably OWS) @ race pace

4.5/5 hour bike @ race pace/wattage/hr

30-45 min run off @ race pace/race HR

You are going to know in the first 30-45 min if you overpaced the bike, screwed up nutrition or both. The biggest cost for recovery is in the run so we'll limit that to the minimum time in order to test.

You can use the bigger bike/run bricks to test run nutrition/pacing over the 30-45 min mark as well as the stand alone long runs.

 

I have a question about the 30-45 minute run, based on pacing/nutrition issues showing up during that time.  In my HIMs, its the second half of the run where those issues show up, so for me, the second hour.  I am not sure that they would show up in a 30-45 minute run.  Based on that, I think I see some value in a longer run for the Big Day.  But I definitely want to be conscious  of the injury risk/recovery cost.

 

More than likely you can solve those problems in your second hour during stand alone runs or longer bike/run bricks. Once you get past the first hour it's just running on tired legs with a glycogen depleted body. What kind of issues are you having during the second hour of your HIM runs?



2012-01-18 12:37 PM
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2012-01-18 4:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
TriDiesel - 2012-01-17 3:37 PM

Gordo Byrn also recommends a couple of these workouts. Hearing it from 2 well respected coaches has me believing in it.


Wait a sec...

Gordo and Friel wrote "Going Long." I don't have that book in front of me right now, but that's the one that recommends separating long rides and long runs by a few days so you can get in quality runs. And I picture them explicitly saying they are dead-set against putting in these monster weekends.

So, now I'm confused. Is Friel for or against the big days??? I gotta go re-read my book.
2012-01-18 4:38 PM
in reply to: #3997431

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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
Rocket Man - 2012-01-18 10:15 AM
kmac1346 - 2012-01-18 1:12 PM
Rocket Man - 2012-01-18 9:52 AM

I think that the workout as written is too much. For a faster athlete that is pretty close to Iron distance and what would be the point of doing your race in training? The recovery cost is huge as well. This is most certainly NOT a beginner workout by any stretch of the imagination.

IMO the swim is the most neglected and overlooked part of any triathlete's training. For sprint and olympic (and even HIM distance if you come from a swim background) you can "fake" your way through the swim and still have a good race. I am a huge advocate of the swim/bike brick especially for those athletes that don't come from a swim background. As much as people want to say "the swim is just a warm up" or "if you go easy you will be ok" the fact of the matter is 4400 yds is a long way to swim and it is going to deplete your energy reserves. You have to know how your body is going to react post swim on the bike in order to accurately design a nutritional strategy that will work. If you get out of the water and your HR is elevated 10-15 bpm over your normal cycling HR you are going to have a tough time taking in as many calories. This leads to getting behind nutritionally which doesn't end well, not to mention that you are essentially overpacing the bike to start which also never ends well.

A great race day simulation that I like to give my IM athletes is:

1 hour swim (preferably OWS) @ race pace

4.5/5 hour bike @ race pace/wattage/hr

30-45 min run off @ race pace/race HR

You are going to know in the first 30-45 min if you overpaced the bike, screwed up nutrition or both. The biggest cost for recovery is in the run so we'll limit that to the minimum time in order to test.

You can use the bigger bike/run bricks to test run nutrition/pacing over the 30-45 min mark as well as the stand alone long runs.

 

I have a question about the 30-45 minute run, based on pacing/nutrition issues showing up during that time.  In my HIMs, its the second half of the run where those issues show up, so for me, the second hour.  I am not sure that they would show up in a 30-45 minute run.  Based on that, I think I see some value in a longer run for the Big Day.  But I definitely want to be conscious  of the injury risk/recovery cost.

 

More than likely you can solve those problems in your second hour during stand alone runs or longer bike/run bricks. Once you get past the first hour it's just running on tired legs with a glycogen depleted body. What kind of issues are you having during the second hour of your HIM runs?

 

I run out of energy on the second half.  Part of it has been bike pacing, I know.  In at least one race, I know I went way too hard on the bike, and that bit me on the run.  But, I also think I haven't mastered my nutrition, too, because its like I can feel the energy leaving my body about mile 9.  I've looked at my logs, and realize I didn't have as much of a base as I thought, and I know I've got pacing issues, but I think nutrition is in there, too.  Or, I just really answered my own question about what the issue is.

2012-01-19 7:13 AM
in reply to: #3995014

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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 

Rocket Man - 2012-01-18 11:52 AM

I think that the workout as written is too much. For a faster athlete that is pretty close to Iron distance and what would be the point of doing your race in training? The recovery cost is huge as well. This is most certainly NOT a beginner workout by any stretch of the imagination.

IMO the swim is the most neglected and overlooked part of any triathlete's training. For sprint and olympic (and even HIM distance if you come from a swim background) you can "fake" your way through the swim and still have a good race. I am a huge advocate of the swim/bike brick especially for those athletes that don't come from a swim background. As much as people want to say "the swim is just a warm up" or "if you go easy you will be ok" the fact of the matter is 4400 yds is a long way to swim and it is going to deplete your energy reserves. You have to know how your body is going to react post swim on the bike in order to accurately design a nutritional strategy that will work. If you get out of the water and your HR is elevated 10-15 bpm over your normal cycling HR you are going to have a tough time taking in as many calories. This leads to getting behind nutritionally which doesn't end well, not to mention that you are essentially overpacing the bike to start which also never ends well.

A great race day simulation that I like to give my IM athletes is:

1 hour swim (preferably OWS) @ race pace

4.5/5 hour bike @ race pace/wattage/hr

30-45 min run off @ race pace/race HR

You are going to know in the first 30-45 min if you overpaced the bike, screwed up nutrition or both. The biggest cost for recovery is in the run so we'll limit that to the minimum time in order to test.

You can use the bigger bike/run bricks to test run nutrition/pacing over the 30-45 min mark as well as the stand alone long runs.


I agree that the Friel workout is for a more experienced IM athlete. its certainly not for the first-time-I-just-want-to-finish athlete. 

The comment about it being pretty close as to what faster triathletes do is true if you're a pro.  Those who can swim, bike and run the IM race distances in his times for this workout would be pros and uber-elites; not most any of us.

I like the change here to limit the run but I am probably going to limit to 1 - 1 1/4 hours instead.

 

TriMyBest - 2012-01-18 6:45 AM

No, I don't.  I agree with everyone else's comments re: recovery cost. 

(snip)

I haven't coached anyone at the IM distance yet, but even for HIM training, I try to avoid scheduling a long bike and long run on adjacent days, much less in the same day.  It will just compromise the quality of training sessions in the next couple days too much.

Some people recover well and others don't for a variety of reasons (e.g., lack of sleep, poor nutrition, trying to make all workouts hard, etc).  That's stressed heavily in this "build" period of Friel's so its a real concern.  I've done other long days, although not as long as this.  The concept then, as it is with these, is to take two days of rest on Sunday and Monday with the following week being a recovery week. It seems like enough balance, but I think it really depends on the athlete.  If I, for example, don't find myself recovering well during the earlier weeks, then this workout might be an issue.  Its personal.

 

spudone - 2012-01-18 12:12 PM I also think the 90 minute "transition" breaks can defeat the goal of testing out your nutrition plan.

I am not sure why the 90-minute rest and I also questioned the length.

 

runnerx - 2012-01-18 4:06 PM
TriDiesel - 2012-01-17 3:37 PM Gordo Byrn also recommends a couple of these workouts. Hearing it from 2 well respected coaches has me believing in it.
Wait a sec... Gordo and Friel wrote "Going Long." I don't have that book in front of me right now, but that's the one that recommends separating long rides and long runs by a few days so you can get in quality runs. And I picture them explicitly saying they are dead-set against putting in these monster weekends. So, now I'm confused. Is Friel for or against the big days??? I gotta go re-read my book.

I am following his plan this year that is written in his book "Your Best Triathlon".  Unlike "Going Long" that he wrote with Gordo this one details the periods and workouts.

 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.



Edited by Gritty 2012-01-19 7:15 AM
2012-01-19 7:58 AM
in reply to: #3995014

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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
I checked Going Long....it does seem inconsistent to me. One of his first points is to keep away from these "death" weekends and workouts as he calls it, yet in the appendix he does offer up these type of workouts as suggestions.

But as Gritty just stated, try it out and see how you feel afterwards. Everyone is different. For me, I would need alot of recovery time after this so I have no plans to do these.


2012-01-19 4:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?

I think the idea is that if you have built a decent run and bike base (and that is a really big "if"), and pace the s/b/r appropriately, the big day is just "big" and not "epic" so it won't require huge recovery time. 

My "big day" last year consisted of 1 hr on the trainer before the sun came up (approx 14 mi) to take advantage of cooler temperatures plus an almost 6 hr ride (88.5 miles) on the road and a 1.5 hour run (9 miles).

Because I paced appropriately on the bike (actually right at my actual IM bike pace at IMWI) and took it easy on the run, and I had the run base to support a 1.5 hour run as a medium-distance run, I was able to continue training as usual afterwards.  If I had executed my workout poorly (see Rich's items 1-3 in the bike pacing thread) or had not have that run base, I would probably have needed more recovery.  So, I think the question is more complicated than just "is this a valuable workout" because for some people it is more valuable or more injury-inducing than others.

2012-01-20 12:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Joe Friel's "Big Days". Do you do them?
I've done something similar to this to test my nutrition more than anything.  The only thing i don't understand about this is the breaks in-between.  I've done 1:10 swim, 80 mile bike and 15 mile run with just 10 min inbetween.  I feel like you need to get over the 1/2 mark on the run to make sure your nutrition is working.  If you stop for 90min then this doesn't say anything about your nutrition.  It allows your HR to come down and your body to digest all your food/drink where if you kept going without rest you may be able to pinpoint some problems and fix them before the IM.
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