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2012-01-21 4:56 PM

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Subject: HR spiking during running question

OK, I'm actually asking this for my wife.

Little background.  My wife has lost over 60 lbs. in the last year and is down to around 165 currently.  She is 5'7" so she still wants to lose another 25-30 lbs.  She has been doing Swim/Bike/Run training for the last year and obviously due to the weight loss she's been having a lot of success.

When she first started running, she'd put the treadmill at 4.5 and within about 90 seconds her HR would spike to 180-190 and she'd be breathing like she's dying and have to walk for 2 or 3 minutes.  She'd repeat this over and over and that was her run.  I always figured it was due to her overall health and she just needed to run more.  

Well, after a year of running she is now bumping it up to 6.0, but still has the exact same issue.  When she puts it at 6.0 her HR just climbs and climbs and never stops until she's about ready to pass out and has to walk again after about 90 seconds.  So, she's still run/walking just like she did a year ago and her overall times are getting better, but she's still at about a 13 minute mile where she started at about a 14 minute mile run/walk pace even though she's 60 lbs. lighter and in considerably better shape.

When I compare this to me, I was just as overweight when I started and it only took me a few weeks of running before my HR was steady and I could run continuously for over an hour.  I know we're different and have different backgrounds, but I'm somewhat perplexed.

She's always asking me for running advice and I just don't have any for her at this point so I'm hoping you guys can help me(her) out.  Is this some kind of VO2 max thing that needs a ton of work?  What do you guys recommend as far as workouts?  Should she keep run walking and just try pushing a little longer and running at faster speeds?

(sorry for the long post)



2012-01-21 5:10 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
That's great she's getting better times on average now vs a year ago.  Could it be she's putting the speed setting too high that's it's out of her fitness range to run w/o breathing so hard?  What happens when she puts it back to 4.5?  Does she warm up long enough before that?  My HR spikes when I don't warm up properly before a run.
2012-01-21 5:18 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
kloofyroland - 2012-01-21 6:10 PMThat's great she's getting better times on average now vs a year ago.  Could it be she's putting the speed setting too high that's it's out of her fitness range to run w/o breathing so hard?  What happens when she puts it back to 4.5?  Does she warm up long enough before that?  My HR spikes when I don't warm up properly before a run.
I was going to ask the same thing as Roland. What happens when she runs at 4.5 now? Sounds like her aerobic running base needs to increase. Other than that, sounds like she is doing great. Congrats on both of your successful journeys thus far.
2012-01-21 5:30 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

What does "a year of running" mean?  How many days per week and how long are the sessions?

On the surface it sounds like she is pushing a little too hard but if a year of running means she has been running 20 minutes 3x a week, then maybe people can offer some different advice.  Is she also still doing the swim and bike?  How long, how hard, how many sessions?  The more information the better.

Besides that, does she see a doctor and is she in otherwise good health?  No cardiac or respiratory issues?

2012-01-21 6:29 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
acumenjay - 2012-01-21 5:30 PM

What does "a year of running" mean?  How many days per week and how long are the sessions?

On the surface it sounds like she is pushing a little too hard but if a year of running means she has been running 20 minutes 3x a week, then maybe people can offer some different advice.  Is she also still doing the swim and bike?  How long, how hard, how many sessions?  The more information the better.

Besides that, does she see a doctor and is she in otherwise good health?  No cardiac or respiratory issues?

Year of running = 4 days a week ~45 each time.
She biked through the summer at what I would consider an easy pace and swims between 3 & 4 times a week for about 45 minutes. 

She does see a Dr. and they have nothing but good things to say.

I'll talk to her about running at a pace she can run continuously to see how it goes.

2012-01-21 6:38 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

I'm no expert but it sounds like she is running too hard. I would say try to run at a pace (no matter how slow it feels) she can hold for the whole time she is running. Like I said I am no expert but her time may be close to the same if she put the treadmill on 5 and didn't slow down to walk. If thats still too fast bring it down a little more.

 



2012-01-21 6:52 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
I am trying to get more scientific and wear a garmin/heart rate monitor for all of my runs. When I analyze the data I see that at the very start of almost every run I have a 2-3 minute window where my heart rate goes much higher than it should for the effort . Then as I get warmed up and into the goal pace of the run my heart rate comes down into what I would consider appropriate for the effort.

Have her try warming up slowly for 5-10 minutes. On the treadmill (if that is where I am working out) I start about 1.5 to 2 mph below my goal pace and just up the speed by 0.1 mph every minute for about 10 minutes. At the end of 10 minutes I am usually pretty close to goal pace.

I actually love trying to get faster this way. If I just hopped on the tready and set it at 9 mph I would die, but it is amazing that by starting at 7.5 mph slowly increasing to 9 mph (for your wife 4.5 to 6 mph) your body can adjust and hit/maintain paces you would have previously not thought possible.
2012-01-21 7:03 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
jeeper9281 - 2012-01-21 6:38 PM

I'm no expert but it sounds like she is running too hard. I would say try to run at a pace (no matter how slow it feels) she can hold for the whole time she is running. Like I said I am no expert but her time may be close to the same if she put the treadmill on 5 and didn't slow down to walk. If thats still too fast bring it down a little more.

 

 

Yes, I agree.  Also, she could try running outside with just a stopwatch at whatever pace is comfortably uncomfortable that she finish the session at without having to stop and walk.  It doesn't matter what that pace is and she won't really know because she'll just have the time.  I just know that sometimes when I'm on the treadmill I have a tendency to keep speeding up because I'm looking at the number and then I get a trigger happy.  Outside I don't pay attention to my watch as much...

2012-01-21 9:58 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
The way she is training, she is not working at a level that is going to promote aerobic development. She is basically doing sprint intervals. That is why her speed is improving, but her endurance is not. Try and run at a speed that can be maintained for at least 10 minutes and then try and build that time up.
2012-01-22 12:02 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

kloofyroland - 2012-01-21 3:10 PM That's great she's getting better times on average now vs a year ago.  Could it be she's putting the speed setting too high that's it's out of her fitness range to run w/o breathing so hard?  What happens when she puts it back to 4.5?  Does she warm up long enough before that?  My HR spikes when I don't warm up properly before a run.

ETA:  Since she wants to lose weight, the easiest way to do that is to burn fat.  When she brings her intensity level down to a conversational pace/easy breathing (up to 70% max intensity) and sweating, she will be burning fat which is alot easier than burning carbs (which happens at higher intensity training sessions).



Edited by kloofyroland 2012-01-22 12:06 AM
2012-01-22 12:48 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
Simply have her slow down. Even though she feels she is slow already just have he go slower. She should build her base before speed.


2012-01-22 3:03 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

I'll repeat what others have been saying, it sounds like she's running too fast. She needs to build an aerobic base and that should be at a pace she can hold without walking. She may also need to warm up more, say, starting with a walk, then a jog and then getting to her aerobic pace after about 15 minutes. 

My own experience has been that when I started running 3 years ago I could hold about 4mph for 15-20 minutes and I built up slowly to longer runs and then started slowly increasing my pace . I'm now at 6mph for my "easy" runs.

2012-01-22 6:57 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

"train for endurance first,  then for speed"

racing lesson #2

I posted a bunch of 'lessons learned' from running a while back that you might want to check out.

Dale

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=421219&posts=3&start=1

 

2012-01-22 10:41 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

beebs - 2012-01-21 10:58 PM The way she is training, she is not working at a level that is going to promote aerobic development. She is basically doing sprint intervals. That is why her speed is improving, but her endurance is not. Try and run at a speed that can be maintained for at least 10 minutes and then try and build that time up.

Bingo.

The way to be able to run faster at a given HR is to run within that HR more (nearly 100% of the time). So have her slow down and RUN (cut out the walks) at a slower pace that feels like she could run forever. Within 3-4 weeks, the paces within that HR range will start increasing.

Right now, she's doing it backwards. She's increasing her speed and having the HR logically follow. Run within the HR and have the speed logically follow. I hope that makes sense.

2012-01-22 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

wannabefaster - 2012-01-21 6:52 PM I am trying to get more scientific and wear a garmin/heart rate monitor for all of my runs. When I analyze the data I see that at the very start of almost every run I have a 2-3 minute window where my heart rate goes much higher than it should for the effort . Then as I get warmed up and into the goal pace of the run my heart rate comes down into what I would consider appropriate for the effort.

 

That's more likely your HR monitor bouncing and picking up interference, static from your shirt, whatever.  Once you get a sweat going it locks on.  My Timex does the same thing.....next time you start out, stop and manually take your pulse and you'll likely see what I'm talking about.  Maybe you are different, but many people experience the same thing with HR monitors.

2012-01-22 12:11 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

wannabefaster - 2012-01-21 7:52 PM I am trying to get more scientific and wear a garmin/heart rate monitor for all of my runs. When I analyze the data I see that at the very start of almost every run I have a 2-3 minute window where my heart rate goes much higher than it should for the effort . Then as I get warmed up and into the goal pace of the run my heart rate comes down into what I would consider appropriate for the effort...

Read this article by dcrainmaker

I haven't had any issues with either my old Polar or current Timex HRM.  I do however thoroughly moisten the pickups and my chest area.



2012-01-22 5:50 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
Donto - 2012-01-22 10:11 AM

wannabefaster - 2012-01-21 7:52 PM I am trying to get more scientific and wear a garmin/heart rate monitor for all of my runs. When I analyze the data I see that at the very start of almost every run I have a 2-3 minute window where my heart rate goes much higher than it should for the effort . Then as I get warmed up and into the goal pace of the run my heart rate comes down into what I would consider appropriate for the effort...

Read this article by dcrainmaker

I haven't had any issues with either my old Polar or current Timex HRM.  I do however thoroughly moisten the pickups and my chest area.

True but I also get the spike with my Timex HRM even when made wet with water before my run workout happens.  It reads accurately during warmup and such but when my run starts, my RPE says one thing but my HR reads in the low 200s???  At that HR my RPE on a 1-10 scale would be 1000! >.<  After a couple minutes it reads HR accurately and match RPE.  It doesn't spike all the time.



Edited by kloofyroland 2012-01-22 5:51 PM
2012-01-22 6:23 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
kloofyroland - 2012-01-22 5:50 PM
Donto - 2012-01-22 10:11 AM

wannabefaster - 2012-01-21 7:52 PM I am trying to get more scientific and wear a garmin/heart rate monitor for all of my runs. When I analyze the data I see that at the very start of almost every run I have a 2-3 minute window where my heart rate goes much higher than it should for the effort . Then as I get warmed up and into the goal pace of the run my heart rate comes down into what I would consider appropriate for the effort...

Read this article by dcrainmaker

I haven't had any issues with either my old Polar or current Timex HRM.  I do however thoroughly moisten the pickups and my chest area.

True but I also get the spike with my Timex HRM even when made wet with water before my run workout happens.  It reads accurately during warmup and such but when my run starts, my RPE says one thing but my HR reads in the low 200s???  At that HR my RPE on a 1-10 scale would be 1000! >.

 

Sometimes the early spikes are due to tracking strides not your actual heart rate. The mechanical act of running can cause enough force to pick up you step rate.

Usually after you begin to sweat and the monitor strap makes good enough contac this artifact goes away.

 

2012-01-22 7:24 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

I do understand how the HRM dryness, static, etc. can play a roll in this, but I don't think that's what you're saying since you said her breathing is very difficult when this happens. First, let her know she's not alone. Second, make sure she does some sort of warm up and start running at a slower pace and I bet it will get better. 

I agree with the things said above about her needing to run slower because she's going too hard based on her fitness, but it also just might be the way she is, especially without a good warm up. The same thing has happened to me on training runs for as long as I can remember. It doesn't happen with cycling or swimming, but I think that's because it's easier to ease into those activities than running (see below).

When I notice it at the beginning of runs, it's the perceived effort. I can start out at a conservative pace, but my breathing and effort are very hard and I feel like my heart is racing, whether I have the HRM on or not. That usually lasts two or three minutes then I suddenly feel fine and can go about my run without any issues. I've learned if I stay with it for a few minutes, it will get better. I also knew I have a slightly irregular heart rhythm so I got a full heart workup to make sure all was well and it is. During that period of research, I learned this issue with a high heart rate at the beginning of a run is actually pretty common, as is also apparent from some of the responses above.

The thing I have found that helps curtail this is simply doing a warm up instead of starting to run cold. Anything from biking for a few minutes to doing a few jumping jacks or even doing some dynamic stretching and a few running drills helps get my body ready to go. I don't recall this kind of thing ever happening at the beginning of a running race and I attribute that to the fact I always warm up well for those. I'm just one of those people who can't walk out the door or hop on the treadmill and start running without a warm up, no matter how slow I start. Maybe your wife is the same way? Another thing to consider is if she goes back to running at 4.5 or even 4, and it still happens, see if she can hang in there for a few minutes without walking to see if it gets better. It does for me, but maybe that's just me.

Good luck!
Brad 

2012-01-23 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

Thanks for all the great replies.  I think I have a much better handle on this now to help her.

I did relay a lot of the comments to her Saturday night and she was really encouraged.  We hit the gym yesterday and she tried running at 5.0 and after about 3 or 4 minutes her HR climbed up to about 175.  She made it a mile, but then pretty much crashed and started walking.  After her HR came down to about 130 I told her to try 4.5 and her HR shot right back up to 175 again and she had to walk again after a few minutes.  She was pretty frustrated, so to avoid any black eyes I let it go at that.  

We had a good talk later last night and I told her to try again starting at 4.5 and if that doesn't work then go down to 4.0.  There's got to be a threshold she can run at without spiking.

She hasn't been doing any biking this winter, so I also recommended doing a regular spin class for some hour long steady cardio that should help build her endurance base.

2012-04-23 2:32 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question

Hey guys, sorry for resurrecting this thread from who knows what page, but I wanted to thank you guys and let you know that your advice had a huge impact.

Last October my wife did a Half Marathon and finished in 3:26 and was pretty toasted at the end of it.  Just yesterday she finished a Half Marathon in 2:46.  Now that's what I call an improvement.  

What did she do different, she went from running 30-45 minutes 3-4 times a week to running 60 minutes 5 days a week with a long run of around 2 hours on Sunday.  The off day she would swim.

Based on your advice I had her get to a speed where she could run for 9 minutes and walk for 1 which is where she did all her training.  She was able to run almost the entire marathon between an 11 and 12 minute mile pace.

She is beyond excited and has been on top of the world all yesterday and today, so I just wanted to give you guys some feedback and say thank you!!!



2012-04-23 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: HR spiking during running question
tuwood - 2012-04-23 2:32 PM

.

Last October my wife did a Half Marathon and finished in 3:26 and was pretty toasted at the end of it.  Just yesterday she finished a Half Marathon in 2:46.  Now that's what I call an improvement.  

What did she do different, she went from running 30-45 minutes 3-4 times a week to running 60 minutes 5 days a week with a long run of around 2 hours on Sunday.  The off day she would swim.

Based on your advice I had her get to a speed where she could run for 9 minutes and walk for 1 which is where she did all her training.  She was able to run almost the entire marathon between an 11 and 12 minute mile pace.

She is beyond excited and has been on top of the world all yesterday and today, so I just wanted to give you guys some feedback and say thank you!!!

Fantastic improvement! Congratulations to her (and you for the solid advice)!

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