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2012-02-23 9:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
It feels like a burning sensation in the legs, and towards the end probably in the lungs.

I have thrown up, but I prefer not to. If I do it's always towards the end (usually after the finish line).

For me, mile 1 is generally about trying to get into some sort of position in the field. I have a slow start, and like to run people down.

Mile 2 is mental. Depending on field size and course, it can be tempting to slow down, ease up. You have to decide what the right call is here. If you're already redlining it, easing back a little bit may be a good move. Generally, I've got myself near where I want to be, the crowd has thinned, and I'm trying to keep my eye on the next person ahead of me.

Mile 3 is all about trying to hold people off and pick up places. I have a horrible kick, so I don't rely on it at all. I tend to get beat at the end by the natural sprinters and strength runners, because they can simply out-power me. So I try to kick earlier and force them to go too far into the well. I also try to push up the hills because I tend to handle the climbing better.


2012-02-23 9:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Flapjack - 2012-02-23 10:07 AM

Let me ask this of the really fast 5Ker's.  What does it feel like?  Burning dead legs?  Burning shoulders.  Actual vomit in the mouth while you run?

I tried to go there in my 2011 season finale, but I backed off in the last mile.  I think I just quit.

I don't know what you're defining as "the really fast". My all time PB is somewhere sub 18 (High School), my 2012 PB is a 19:28, but my recent PR is a 19:08. I'll be 45 at the end of March. 

My current 10k PR is a 40:01. That hurts. I'll save that story.

But to answer your question ... for me, it's a lung burn that lasts well into the next day. The legs certainly feel it in that last mile, but they recover quicker. My lungs hurt after a 5k like no other distance. And I almost always dry heave at as I'm walking down the finish shoot. I haven't actually hurled for some time. 

2012-02-23 10:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

I am not fast (19:36 at 50 years old), only have 1 under my belt but the memory is fresh since I did it last Sunday

The things I remember are

I was scared stiff before the race. I thought it was going to be extremely painful.

It's over quick.

It is hard, but no harder than a 20' FTP bike test or a 1500m swim race. I would actually prefer a 5k run to a 1500m swim race.

The mid point comes so fast that you realize the suffering won't be that long so you continue to push

I was lucky in that the first km of the race was uphill so I finished on a downhill which gives you wings. Although that first km set the tone for pain to come.

My lungs did sting that afternoon and I am much stiffer in the legs this week.

It's over so fast that the adrenalin takes over. It's not that bad.

2012-02-23 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
How many miles per week are ya'll runing to get down to the upper teens/ low 20's for a 5K.  I'm 50 too and seeing the recent post...my hat is off to ya'll.  I'm hoping just to finish w/o walking.
2012-02-23 10:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

KWDreamun - 2012-02-23 11:16 AM How many miles per week are ya'll runing to get down to the upper teens/ low 20's for a 5K.  I'm 50 too and seeing the recent post...my hat is off to ya'll.  I'm hoping just to finish w/o walking.

This is an interesting question, as I think I'm probably in 19:15 shape for a 5k right now and probably sub 1:30 for a half. And my running mileage is quite low right now. Since picking up the other two disciplines, I've had a hard time staying at what would normally be my maintenance mileage (40 mpw). I guess this speaks well for the benefits the cross training offers to my general aerobic fitness.

I'd say I've been averaging 30 mpw. My logs are up to date, but last week is an anomaly as I was couch bound for most of it with a stomach bug. 

Edit to add: I just looked at my logs. I'm not at 30mpw currently. Ugh. This leap into marathon training is going to hurt. 



Edited by BernardDogs 2012-02-23 11:03 AM
2012-02-23 11:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
BernardDogs - 2012-02-23 10:40 AM

And my running mileage is quite low right now. Since picking up the other two disciplines, I've had a hard time staying at what would normally be my maintenance mileage (40 mpw). I guess this speaks well for the benefits the cross training offers to my general aerobic fitness.


I'd say I've been averaging 30 mpw. 

I'm really glad this question was asked, and appreciate BD answering. For me it shows that "low" and "high" mileage are as relative as "slow" and "fast" running. In 2 years of running I've yet to hit 30mpw. It takes me months to build up to a 25-mile week, and committing to that volume takes more time than I can usually find.

[GULP] This is going to be a long, slow journey.



2012-02-23 12:18 PM
in reply to: #4062270

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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
I volume question is kind of hard for me to answer, mostly because I have no idea what sort of mileage I ran in HS.

My most recent sub-20 was done while I was at peak mileage for marathon training, so I was averaging around 70-80 mpw at that point. I was not doing any intervals, and I wasn't training for a 5K, so that makes some level of difference.

I think that I could get to a sub-20 again (I am currently not anywhere near racing shape or weight) on lower miles, but I would have harder workouts.

ETA:
With all that, I also have been running off and on for the past 20 or so years.

Edited by Scout7 2012-02-23 12:19 PM
2012-02-23 12:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
KWDreamun - 2012-02-23 10:16 AM

How many miles per week are ya'll runing to get down to the upper teens/ low 20's for a 5K.  I'm 50 too and seeing the recent post...my hat is off to ya'll.  I'm hoping just to finish w/o walking.


The answer to this question won't really mean much, as different people need different amounts of mileage to reach that target. I got under 20 for a 5k (end of a sprint tri) on about 15 mpw in my early 40's.
2012-02-23 2:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Plenty of good advice out there. I'll just add that you most certainly can do it -- I set my 5K PR at age 50 (19:53 as I recall).

Now get out there on the track and start doing those 800s! ;-)
2012-02-23 3:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

GBarrett - 2012-02-23 10:35 AM
KWDreamun - 2012-02-23 10:16 AM How many miles per week are ya'll runing to get down to the upper teens/ low 20's for a 5K.  I'm 50 too and seeing the recent post...my hat is off to ya'll.  I'm hoping just to finish w/o walking.
The answer to this question won't really mean much, as different people need different amounts of mileage to reach that target. I got under 20 for a 5k (end of a sprint tri) on about 15 mpw in my early 40's.

+1

What I say won't mean much to other people.  And I'll be 34 next month, so that's a whole other story.

But 2 weeks ago, I did a 20:45.  With sub-acute appendicitis.  On 12-15 mpw.

2012-02-23 4:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
I will be trying this on about 30mpw. I am still into a winter bike training plan, and with swimming 4 days a week and not having a marathon, this is a decent base for me. Once I start my HIM training running will increase. So I am thinking about something like:
Monday: 6 miles easy
Tuesday: 5.5 miles tempo (my weekly running club and dinner night)
Wednesday off
Thursday: 5 miles intervals
Friday: 5-miles easy
Saturday: 8.5 mile long run
Sunday: off

Wednesday and Friday might swap. The days off are hard bike and swim days.

Edited by BrianRunsPhilly 2012-02-23 4:18 PM


2012-02-23 5:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

kenail - 2012-02-23 12:35 PM Plenty of good advice out there. I'll just add that you most certainly can do it -- I set my 5K PR at age 50 (19:53 as I recall). Now get out there on the track and start doing those 800s! ;-)

 

Ken

Have you got a bit of info on the number and pace/rest for those 800s? Are these the  'Yasso' 800s I have seen referenced a few times?

Thanks

2012-02-23 7:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Flapjack - 2012-02-23 10:07 AM

Let me ask this of the really fast 5Ker's.  What does it feel like?  Burning dead legs?  Burning shoulders.  Actual vomit in the mouth while you run?

I tried to go there in my 2011 season finale, but I backed off in the last mile.  I think I just quit.

I don't consider myself 'really fast' but I have done what OP wants (at a different age but also a different background -- I'm 43, started running at 40 with no sport experience prior, and I've gone sub 18 on a track, just over 18 in a road race).  Like Scout I'm a slow starter and generally try to run people down.  Here's my experience:

* At the start line, I am nervous and scared.  There, I said it -- scared.

* The first mile feels pretty comfortable.  My main goal is not to lose touch with those whom I consider my most obvious competitors.  Generally, by the first mile marker I find myself wondering whether I can hold pace.

* Hopefully by then I've found someone to chase, and for the second mile, I focus on chasing that person.  The second mile is usually my fastest in a 5k (open or tri doesn't seem to matter).

* The third mile is all about focusing on the task at hand and trying to hang on until the last 400, then push.  Legs definitely burn.  I try to observe that sensation rather than letting it control me -- i.e., not let it dictate my pace.  Lungs are beginning to burn.

* Last 400m I've generally been able to experience the pain but not let it get me down and pick up the pace.  However, I recall one sprint tri where I definitely allowed myself to back off for the last 400m.  It just got to me too much.

 

Brian -- like others, I think you are very close.  Go for it!

2012-02-23 8:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k
Flapjack - 2012-02-23 10:07 AM

Let me ask this of the really fast 5Ker's.  What does it feel like?  Burning dead legs?  Burning shoulders.  Actual vomit in the mouth while you run?

I'm not sure that it feels much different if you're faster or slower, to be honest (I've been both in the past few years). I think what matters more is how close your 5k pace is to your top-end pace (say, for a mile or less). At age 44 I'm probably in around 17:30 shape right now. In my youth I ran ~16 mins, and a couple of years ago I was only good for about 24 mins, so I've covered a range. I've been running 40-45 mpw lately, with 1 weekly dose of 2 x 2400m intervals in the past few weeks; before that no speed work at all.

When you're in good running shape, including with good high-end speed, 5k pace really doesn't feel so bad. You're certainly hurting at the end, but it doesn't feel like you're flat out from early on. And the training that gets to you that point also means that you can recover pretty quickly afterwards. On the other hand, if you've been focusing on HM/Mary training and rarely run quickly, then your 5k pace may be pretty close to your top-end pace, in which case it can be a lot harder from the get go. I did the downtown 3k race in Boulder last summer on a lark, off zero speed work, and in that situation I had exactly the lung-busting, legs wilting sensation that folks have described in this thread. I was in a daze for some time after the race, like I didn't know what had hit me. But right now, with a little more speed practice under my belt, a 5k wouldn't feel that way. Running for ~20 minutes is still very much an aerobic activity.

I dread 20 minute all-out efforts on the bike trainer far more than a 5k. I think you can go further into the pain cave if you're sitting down.

2012-02-23 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Running a sub-20 5k

GatorRunner - 2012-02-22 12:42 PM

My favorite is Mile repeats.  1 mile intervals with 1-2 minutes rest.  Run each interval AT Race Pace or RP-10 s.  Each workout should be 3-4 intervals, with good warm up and cool down of course.  In high school we did these once a week, and it worked wonders. 

Why it works: You get your pace ingrained in your legs, and you slowly work up your endurance at RP.  The first workout will be hell, like most track workouts, but over time shorten your rest to 1 minute.  If you can complete all 4, 1 mile intervals all at RP with 1 minute rest, then you've got it in the bag.

Might do this Saturday morning, big thanks!!! 

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