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2012-03-08 11:28 AM

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Subject: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

I have a "friend" who bought an older house, built in 1919.  This house has some renovations in it so there is a mix of knob and tube wiring and "modern wiring".  This friend wants to insulate in the attic but recieved mixed messages from contractors who looked at the project.  One is still working on a bid but given it has been a week probably won't turn it in.  The other contractor said to cover it up and press on. Only half of the insulation contractors even mentioned the electical situation.

The attic:  Knob and tube wires run along the floor/celing joist below the top edge and have rock wool insulation between the joists.  There is 3/4 x6" planking that covers most of the attic floor.  The contractor that said the concern about covering the wires with insulation was mitigated by the planking and the air space between the joists and insulation.  One contractor said to cover up the joists with the planking lay out the existing insulation on top of the planks and then blow in insulation on top of that.  But mark where your box covers are so you can find them again should you ever want to rewire stuff.   This idea sounds good  due to its low cost and ease but part of me says its not the way to fix it. 

Should I ask another contractor or dare I contact the electrical inspector for thier input?  In the end I (the friend) want to protect my investment in this home and improve it but at the same time not get completely upsidedown on this project.

 



Edited by tcarlson78 2012-03-08 11:29 AM


2012-03-08 11:49 AM
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2012-03-08 11:55 AM
in reply to: #4086718

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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

It is a bit tricky especially with wiring dating from 1919 to know. Who knows what has been done to all of the electrical work since then. There is a great possibility that some of it is done wrong but most is hopefully right. I have no experience in wiring to very old wiring setups. In my experience with others having this same issue they ended up just getting the whole place re wired. (These were all single level homes in the south) I dont know if the house is two stories or more, that complicates things quite a bit. It is more cost effective to cover it up and mark where the boxes are but I would honestly feel more comfortable getting it re wired.

Currently, the United States National Electrical Code forbids the use of loose, blown-in, or expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[8] This is because K&T is designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result, energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in affected homes. However, California, Washington, Nebraska, and Oregon have modified the NEC to conditionally allow insulation around K&T.

To go with this statement they have not found that installing insulation over old wiring has been a main culprit of fires but that wiring is almost a hundred years old. I guess if it was planked over and used some of the new fire rated insulation it would be ok but I would still get it rewired.



Edited by Thomasski 2012-03-08 11:58 AM
2012-03-08 12:00 PM
in reply to: #4086718

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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

The National Electrical Code does not permit insulation contact with knob and tube wiring systems, though some jurisdictions still allow it if the wiring is in good condition.  You'd have to check with your city for this information.
You may be able to do as the one contractor mentioned, but you have to be careful and it's really just half-azzing the project. 

If you go up into your attic you'll notice parallel strands of wire running to and fro across your attic floor or in the rafters. They are supposed to be spaced at least three inches apart to keep them cool. Adding insulation on top of and around the wires would cut off the air circulation critical to that cooling effect, potentially creating a fire hazard.  In addition, if moisture were to get into insulation surrounding the wires (from a roof leak, for instance), a conduction path could be created between one strand of wire to the other, again creating potential for a fire.

The existing knob and tube wires could be covered with a box large enough to maintain three inches of air space around each conductor, and then insulation could be spread over that. However, the old system has several other problems that make it difficult to justify trying to preserve it. One of the major issues is the fact that the system has no grounding conductor, and thus there is no built-in personal shock protection. In addition, many knob and tube wiring installations suffer from brittle and deteriorating insulation around the wires. 

For those reasons it is usually more prudent to have a licensed electrician come in and replace the knob and tube wiring with modern, plastic-sheathed cable.  That would be the best option for you and will also allow you to insulate your attic in the best way possible as well!  Good luck.

2012-03-08 1:13 PM
in reply to: #4086718

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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

 

Another benefit to having the knob and tube replaced is reduced insurance costs or more options when choosing an insurance company.

A lot of preferred companies will not write a house with knob and tube wiring, or if they will the premium is astronomical. There is usually an electrical questionnaire that has to be filled out for a house that old. If you say you have knob and tube they might not take you, if you say you do not have knob and tube and they find out later that you did and lied about it, you might run into problems.

I would look into replacing it. I definitely wouldn't insulate around it given the responses here from people more knowledgeable than I.

2012-03-08 1:19 PM
in reply to: #4086718

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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

While not a licensed anything I am a very determined DIY'er and have done just about everything over the past 25 years of older home ownership and renovation.  Electrical work is one area that I proceed with great caution and have been most prone to sucking it up and consult an electrician or just hire them to do.

It is a pretty good investment to update the wiring and whenever it is exposed I take the opportunity to upgrade.  If I cannot get at the wiring I will leave but if I'm tearing up walls or thinking of covering like in your situation, I'd for sure just get it done.  My current home was built in 1909 and some of the old wiring insulation will just crumble off if picked at.  It's now about 90% replaced.



2012-03-11 7:58 PM
in reply to: #4086718

Elite
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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest

ah jeez.   This thread had me email my electrician.

I have knob and tube (I often forget the name and call it "spool and thread").   I also had some wonkie stuff in my new to me older home due to the previous renters attaching romex to the K&T for the, ah, agriculture in the basement.   The first 18 months I lived in the house, I had no overhead lighting fixtures in the kitchen, living room or dining room.    yes, we cooked by lamps that we moved around.  

I got  an electrician in who did a bunch of re-wiring, but did not replace all of the k&T, saying that it was safe as is.   The main thing was to put boxes at all the junctions with romex.   They were at my house for three days.    They came back breifly when we uncovered some wiring in the bathroom that looked wonkie, but was not.   When it is sodered, it is ok.

The attic had some old blown in insulation, but it was either just a little bit, and who knows from when.   After the electrical work, I had 18" blown in by a guy who has his general contractor's license.    I would think if it was an issue, he would have mentioned it. 

Hence, I sent an email to my electrician asking him if I was now a fire hazard.   Man - imagine if I still had a wood shake roof!

2012-03-11 8:33 PM
in reply to: #4086718

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Subject: RE: Electrical question WWCOJ suggest
yea definitely go ahead and get it changed over to romex as soon as you can!!!!!! wil save a tone of money in the long run!!!
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