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2012-12-21 9:24 AM
in reply to: #4544016

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

michgirlsk - 2012-12-21 9:10 AM Dina I must have missed it... what happened to your shoulder?  Or was that from the assisted pull-ups?  I think I have a permanent shoulder issue which started of course after I started doing triathlons.  I am a side and back sleeper, and I cannot (or I refuse to) sleep on my left side, or else it aggravates my shoulder area (something to do with the attachments on the anterior side I'm pretty sure).  At its worst (last year maybe?)  I woke up a couple of times with my left arm completely numb... I think that was after I had spent the night sleeping on my left side.  Anyone want to take a stab at what this might be?! Undecided

Well, I think it was a combo of increasing weights, adding that pull-up machine and trying to do more than I was ready for, then hitting the pool hard with longer swims and lots of hard intervals. Probably one of those things would have been fine but I over did it a little. I started the weights when I was on that little break from swimming, then went back to swimming AND increased the weights. Really, I knew better.

I know where you are coming from when you talk about sleeping on it though. That is actually what made me finally call the doctor. I woke one morning after not having done much related to the shoulder, no swim, no lifting, just slept on it during the night and my whole shoulder was throbbing. I already couldn't sleep on my left side because of my back and this was my right shoulder. So pretty much I could only sleep flat on my back!



2012-12-21 10:39 AM
in reply to: #4544032

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Master
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Columbia, TN
Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Dina/Samantha, there are a couple of things that can go wrong with the shoulder.  You can tear the rotator cuff tendon which can range from a small one to a big one.  As long as you only tear a fraction of the tendon you can fully recover without any disability and without any surgical intervention.

The more common problem, at least outside of heavy weight lifters, is impingement.  There are 4 muscles that share the rotator cuff tendon.  They are all in the back of the shoulder but they follow different routes to the tendon connection.  There is a small space that at least one of them has to travel through near the collar bone.  That muscle/tendon can become inflamed by friction.  Usually this problem is progressive as that joint space gets smaller with time due to ongoing bone growth.  The dynamic here is that the tendon gets inflamed and swells which rubs against the bone which irritates the bone and causes more calcium deposit in that area.

It's a simple surgery to go in and open up that space if it ever comes to that, but most people can just treat a flare up and be fine.

Sometimes (like in my case) bone spurs develop on the underside of the collar bone and overhead presses will result in the rotator cuff tendon being pressed against the bone spur and then as you move your arm, that spur scrapes along the top of the humerus right on the tendon.

You are most likely dealing with run of the mill impingement.

What I have learned in recent years is that you MUST strengthen your rotator cuff to help stabilize the joint which helps keep the head of the humerus where it's supposed to be rather than being moved all over in that joint space.

Think of it this way: your deltoids, lats, pecs are all pulling on that upper arm bone to move your arm.  This makes the head of the humerus want to pull out of the joint.  There are no ligaments holding this joint stable because it needs to move around like a ball.  The only thing hold the head of the humerus in place against the sheering force of those big muscles is the rotator cuff.

 

2012-12-21 10:42 AM
in reply to: #4543827

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Dina, I think that doing your runs right after swimming or biking is better for injury avoidance.  If it's also better for your personal time management then it's great.

 

As far as your HR is concerned, I would simply ask you how it felt?  If you felt comfortable aerobically while running then you were running the right pace regardless of what your HR is.

But being that you were at 11:00/mile then I think that even if you weren't comfortable, I would suggest you press on at that pace anyway, perhaps alternating walk/jog.

 

2012-12-21 10:59 AM
in reply to: #4544165

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX
JeffY - 2012-12-21 11:42 AM

Dina, I think that doing your runs right after swimming or biking is better for injury avoidance.  If it's also better for your personal time management then it's great.

 

As far as your HR is concerned, I would simply ask you how it felt?  If you felt comfortable aerobically while running then you were running the right pace regardless of what your HR is.

But being that you were at 11:00/mile then I think that even if you weren't comfortable, I would suggest you press on at that pace anyway, perhaps alternating walk/jog.

 

This is absolutely true and Jeff has hit the nail on the head here.  I'll give you an example.  I get lower leg issues a lot from running.  I'm on the edge on shin splints and PF half the time.  My knees ache after some runs, there's always something.  BUT, when I race, I never have these problems....ever.  I am always warmed up and although my muscles are burning, I never have any sort of injury from running warmed up from the swim and bike.

2012-12-21 11:29 AM
in reply to: #4125576

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Ok, good info and thanks everyone. I will continue to swim/run or bike/run as time allows.

My HR did feel kind of high on that run yesterday but I just attributed it to coming straight from the pool.

One more question, I have avoided strength training while my shoulder was bothering me. Since things feel better I was going to start back up again. I started the strength training when I was on a break from swimming so I did those workouts as a substitute for the swimming 2 days a week. Now that I am swimming again (2 days a week) I am wondering how often I should be doing the strength exercises? I just don't want to hurt myself again . I'm thinking maybe one day a week and not the same day I swim would be better?

2012-12-21 11:37 AM
in reply to: #4544246

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Yes, strength training, unlike endurance training, can be accomplished with one workout per week.

And you are right not to do it on a swim day because it's not good to lift with tired shoulders for the reason I alluded to above...the rotator cuff muscles can be fatigued and won't stabilize the joint fully.

I want to encourage you to do the rotator cuff strengthening exercises that I posted about a couple of weeks ago.  Keeping your shoulder healthy depends on this.  It's also helpful if you can do the rotator cuff work twice a week if not daily.  And not to do it at the beginning of your strength training workout or they will be pre-fatigued before you use your shoulders for your other exercises.



2012-12-21 11:51 AM
in reply to: #4544261

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX
JeffY - 2012-12-21 11:37 AM

Yes, strength training, unlike endurance training, can be accomplished with one workout per week.

And you are right not to do it on a swim day because it's not good to lift with tired shoulders for the reason I alluded to above...the rotator cuff muscles can be fatigued and won't stabilize the joint fully.

I want to encourage you to do the rotator cuff strengthening exercises that I posted about a couple of weeks ago.  Keeping your shoulder healthy depends on this.  It's also helpful if you can do the rotator cuff work twice a week if not daily.  And not to do it at the beginning of your strength training workout or they will be pre-fatigued before you use your shoulders for your other exercises.

Ok, this is where I think I went wrong. I started back swimming, things felt really good, started hitting the hard intervals in the pool and THEN straight to the weight room after the swim (well a shower first) and lets not stop there - I increased the weights and added more machines than you even suggested for me. Yikes.

I get a little overzealous sometimes .

2012-12-21 12:45 PM
in reply to: #4125576

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Matt, loving that dog and your son with him!  All this group talk about dogs is great.  They can be great running buddies.  Our Labradoodle loves running with Kathy and/or me, and he's to the point where when we even start getting our clothes together he whips himself into a frenzy.

Dina, that's our typical attitude - if some is good, more is better, and more, sooner must be even better.  Just be smart as you build anything.  And another quick point in shoulder health.  Jeff can probably explain this better, but be careful when doing things like pull ups (or anything overhead) to keep your shoulder "packed".  I don't really know a good way to explain it other than to say the feeling you have when you pull your scapula together packs your shoulder joint, and you don't want the shoulder to get extended while your doing anything with your arm extended overhead.  Watching Jeff doing those pullups is a great demonstration of proper shoulder positioning.
2012-12-21 1:20 PM
in reply to: #4544353

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX
That's an important point that Warren just brought up.  You will notice in my video that I never completely straightened my arms on the way down.  That was to keep all of the muscles through the shoulder fully contracted so that the joint was being held together firmly.  If I had come down in between each repetition and relaxed, the humerus would have been pulled upward out of the joint space by my body weight, then when beginning to reactivate the muscles for the next one, it would be snapped back in to position.  Bad mojo.  Aside from muscular tension, it also helped that the arm wasn't DIRECTLY overhead like when you extend during freestyle swimming.  Because then the top of the humerus can touch the collarbone, and under the load of pullups it could be a lot of pressure.  (not much of a concern when swimming).
2012-12-21 1:36 PM
in reply to: #4125576

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Well I was able to get to the pool today and put some of those things discussed into practice. I think the results were mixed. I was able to increase my stroke count which is a good thing and I felt like I was doing less gliding. I really tried to focus on speeding up my recovery and on my catch and pull.

It was sort of hard to judge whether I was swimming too fast or not. I was trying not to swim hard and the at the same time I was trying not to pause my stroke which I know I do especially when breathing to the right. I guess it will just take some time getting used to doing this. I think some laps felt rushed, some I was too slow and some were pretty good. I think for the slow ones it may have been I was just tired and my catch and pull my not have been very good where my wrist may have been dropping. The catch and pull on my right needs the most work.

The other thing is I think I need to breath more then every thired stroke. I don't want to totally ditch the bilateral breathing because that has really helped with my rotation to the left but I probably should be breathing more than every third stroke right now. I don't want to go back to every other stroke while swimming easy in the pool so I have been sort of messing around with more of a 3-2-3. I'm going to experiment more with this next week. Since the pool is closed for the holiday the next chance I will get is Wednesday. Probabaly good to take a break, regroup and head back next week.

2012-12-21 2:48 PM
in reply to: #4544451

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

Yes, it will take time and practice and concentration to get the changes down.  I think that if I were trying to increase my stroke rate to avoid gliding that I might find myself kicking more...Meaning that kicking and stroking go hand in hand.  So if I were completing a stroke cycle with 6 kicks in 4 seconds and then I got rid of some glide time and was now doing that stroke cycle with 6 kicks in 3 seconds I have just dramatically increased my workload.  Even if the arms aren't pulling faster, they are recovering faster...which doesn't cost a lot in terms of oxygen, but that increased rate of kicking sure would.

Are you using a 6 beat kick by any chance?  I think you should use a 2 beat kick, and to pull that off you will have a situation where your arms are not gliding but your feet ARE gliding quite a bit. 

When you do it right it's actually a lot like swimming with the pull buoy.  If you find that swimming with the buoy is a wonderful experience then learning to swim with the 2 beat kick might end up being a breakthrough.

But no matter what changes you desire to make just be persistent and understand that it's a long process.  It's not a succeed/fail thing, it's a succeed sooner or later thing (as long as you don't give up).



2012-12-21 3:40 PM
in reply to: #4544542

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX
JeffY - 2012-12-21 3:48 PM

Yes, it will take time and practice and concentration to get the changes down.  I think that if I were trying to increase my stroke rate to avoid gliding that I might find myself kicking more...Meaning that kicking and stroking go hand in hand.  So if I were completing a stroke cycle with 6 kicks in 4 seconds and then I got rid of some glide time and was now doing that stroke cycle with 6 kicks in 3 seconds I have just dramatically increased my workload.  Even if the arms aren't pulling faster, they are recovering faster...which doesn't cost a lot in terms of oxygen, but that increased rate of kicking sure would.

Are you using a 6 beat kick by any chance?  I think you should use a 2 beat kick, and to pull that off you will have a situation where your arms are not gliding but your feet ARE gliding quite a bit. 

When you do it right it's actually a lot like swimming with the pull buoy.  If you find that swimming with the buoy is a wonderful experience then learning to swim with the 2 beat kick might end up being a breakthrough.

But no matter what changes you desire to make just be persistent and understand that it's a long process.  It's not a succeed/fail thing, it's a succeed sooner or later thing (as long as you don't give up).

Jeff thanks and I could not agree more with your last statement. I have been kicking minimally and trying to not waste energy so I try and go with a two beat kick.  I am kicking to maintain balance and not using it for propulsion. I can swim well with the pull bouy and usually start there with the changes to get a feel for them. I need to sort of translate that to swimming better without it which is what I have been trying to do. Also having to think about everything you need to be doing is tough.

I guess the toughest thing is to coordinate all the things I need to with the increased stroke rate without working too hard or swimming to fast. I think it will take a little time to find the sweet spot but I am determined to stick with it. I know I'll never get any better swimming the way I was so I realize these changes are necessary even though it is difficult for me now.

2012-12-21 8:00 PM
in reply to: #4125576

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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX

The earlier heart rate conversation got me thinking, I wonder How much my heart rate has changed over the last year.  Soooo.

December 19, 2011: 3.93 miles 38:23 with a pace of 9:46  Avg HR: 160  Max HR: 173

December 21, 2012: 4.00 miles 34:52 with a pace of 8:43  Avg HR: 139  Max HR: 152

What a difference a year make!  Thanks for a good season Junkies, now off to post a Bio on the new group!



Edited by mambos 2012-12-21 8:01 PM
2012-12-21 10:59 PM
in reply to: #4125576

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX
Love you guys!  Time for a new Asphalt Junkie chapter! Kiss
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