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2012-04-12 12:06 PM
in reply to: #4146023

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Renee - 2012-04-12 9:36 AM
TriRSquared - 2012-04-12 12:13 PM
crowny2 - 2012-04-12 11:24 AM
TriRSquared - 2012-04-12 8:53 AM
Renee - 2012-04-11 10:20 PM

I think the answer is the same for men as it is for women - the person in the mirror is the greatest obstacle.

Well put Renee.  I agree 100%.

While I agree that more often than not, the person in the mirror is the greatest obstacle, how does one address things like this?

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2348-gender-gap-states.html 

Who is to say that this gap is not due to a good portion allowing themselves to be their own obstacle?  I'm not saying that is the answer but it's a possibility.  They are not mutually exclusive.

Having worked in the staffing industry for 2 decades, I'd say not even close.

  • Don't send me any slips (the slip worn under a skirt - i.e. women)
  • She's single and doesn't have to support her family like a man. Her salary expectations are too high.
  • She's only going to get pregnant and leave anyway.
  • Why aren't you sending me some good ol' white frat boys?!

Couldn't agree more.

I have been working for 28 years now in ever increasing roles of responsibility, but it still amazes me that I hear some of those very same sentiments from people (both men and women).  Many times they are assumptions and the woman is not even approached for the job.   How do they know whether she will move for the job or won't travel more if the new job requires it?

I AM the major breadwinner in my family and we will go where my job takes me since my DH has a more portable job and his focus is our son and his activities.  Why should I get less salary?  The example given that we don't negotiate well could actually be a comparison to the fact that we get offered less while the man does not need to negotiate as much since he is offered more from the get go.  Assertive women aren't viewed in the same light as a man.  We often get labeled with the "b*tch" label, while the man is just assertive.  I refuse to take a victim mentality, but that is also my personality and not everyone gets our Type A personalities in life.  The awareness of any gap can only be a good thing

Has the situation improved in my 28 years?  Absolutely, but there is still a ways to go. 



2012-04-13 2:46 AM
in reply to: #4144746

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. So at the end of the year, the guy has been better able to focus on his work, work projects, and work relationships, the woman (particularly if there are two or more kids) has had more interrupted projects, has more often had others pick up her slack and has been more likely to be behind in her work. No matter what anyone says, this can get a bit irritating for the team, and it makes the woman look like less of a reliable team player, even though she may actually be more efficient at getting the same work done in less time. Fairly quickly people start saying don't give her that project, she's never in when we really need help. In the real world, that translates to fewer opportunities for the "cool" projects, and that means fewer or lower raises and missed promotions. (I work for the gubmint, so it is a little different for us on that stuff).

When 50% of the faces are female in the Fortune 500 CEO photos, Congress, etc., then I think we can be pretty sure that the societal bias went away. Until then it is alive and well.

  

2012-04-13 4:23 AM
in reply to: #4144746

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?

I think it because your uterus will fall out if you run Marathons! /sarc

Seriously for some it is society (Thank you Yanti) for others it is self imposed. But it is also for men as well. I never did anything that could be considred athletic till I got into Tri's

2012-04-13 7:55 AM
in reply to: #4146023

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Renee - 2012-04-12 9:36 AM
TriRSquared - 2012-04-12 12:13 PM
crowny2 - 2012-04-12 11:24 AM
TriRSquared - 2012-04-12 8:53 AM
Renee - 2012-04-11 10:20 PM

I think the answer is the same for men as it is for women - the person in the mirror is the greatest obstacle.

Well put Renee.  I agree 100%.

While I agree that more often than not, the person in the mirror is the greatest obstacle, how does one address things like this?

http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2348-gender-gap-states.html 

Who is to say that this gap is not due to a good portion allowing themselves to be their own obstacle?  I'm not saying that is the answer but it's a possibility.  They are not mutually exclusive.

Having worked in the staffing industry for 2 decades, I'd say not even close.

  • Don't send me any slips (the slip worn under a skirt - i.e. women)
  • She's single and doesn't have to support her family like a man. Her salary expectations are too high.
  • She's only going to get pregnant and leave anyway.
  • Why aren't you sending me some good ol' white frat boys?!

I was in a meeting once where someone was trying to decide who to send to the client site.  The person shot down person after person, many times for the sole reason that the person suggested was female and wouldn't be able to stand up to the client.  The person shooting down these people was female.  Blew my mind and totally changed my perspective of this person.  I lost all respect for her.  I knew the work of most of the people being suggested and they were more then capable.  And this was a black lady at that, who no doubt faced discrimination all the time, both for the colour of her skin and for her gender and there she was doing it to others and unjustly so.  Sometimes woman is woman's biggest obstacle

2012-04-13 8:59 AM
in reply to: #4147723

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
ell-in-or - 2012-04-13 2:46 AM

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. 

Those women have crappy husbands in that regard. 

My wife and I are both managers....I have no problem telling my boss that my wife's career is as important to our family as mine is, and she stayed home with the kids the last time they were sick, so now it's my turn. If I had a boss who balked then the next time I would just call in sick and say nothing of the kids.

Sometimes the biggest obstacle for women is the man they choose as a partner. 

2012-04-13 9:08 AM
in reply to: #4148135

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 9:59 AM
ell-in-or - 2012-04-13 2:46 AM

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. 

Those women have crappy husbands in that regard. 

It may have been addressed in an earlier post, but have these women asked, or want, their husbands to take sick days to care for the children?

 



2012-04-13 9:15 AM
in reply to: #4148177

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Goosedog - 2012-04-13 9:08 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 9:59 AM
ell-in-or - 2012-04-13 2:46 AM

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. 

Those women have crappy husbands in that regard. 

It may have been addressed in an earlier post, but have these women asked, or want, their husbands to take sick days to care for the children?

 

That's a good point......mine wouldn't ask....she'd just say, "your turn" as she headed out the door. Laughing

2012-04-13 10:33 AM
in reply to: #4148135

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 8:59 AM
ell-in-or - 2012-04-13 2:46 AM

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. 

Those women have crappy husbands in that regard. 

My wife and I are both managers....I have no problem telling my boss that my wife's career is as important to our family as mine is, and she stayed home with the kids the last time they were sick, so now it's my turn. If I had a boss who balked then the next time I would just call in sick and say nothing of the kids.

Sometimes the biggest obstacle for women is the man they choose as a partner. 

If you are saying that the bias is not there anymore, then I'd have to disagree.  If you are simply saying they have crappy husbands, then disregard the rest as I have no comment on your opinion of their husbands.  In my personal experience that bias is a reality that women have to deal with.  My wife gets 6 weeks PTO I get 3 weeks vacation + 10 sick days.  I am one of the few men that I know that take time off for kids doctor appt and sick days,  we usually schedule it around who has meetings and who doesn't.  It is dependent on whose circumstances best suit the situation at the time.  That being said, most of the time she takes it because she has more days available than I do.  In times when we've just had a bad string of luck (illnesses, doctor appt, field trips, etc... all in a row) she has had comments made to her about being at work.  But the default understanding was always that the woman would stay home with the sick kids.  In turn, when I first started taking days off for these things I got funny looks from the the WOMEN at my work, not to mention my boss.  Their belief was that was the woman's job.  It has since settled and no one has said anything in a long time but the comment directly from my boss was "Well families are different these days than when I was younger."  Which was his way of telling me he understood.  The bias is still out there as best I can tell and I've tried to look up a study, but all I came up with was a survey conducted by a random source that I don't know if I'd trust, but women are still the primary caregivers for kids and while that is evening out with the shifting of "normal family" structures, it is still a reality that many women have to deal with.  To top that off, more and more women are not only the primary caretakers for their kids but also the main bread winner (I believe for the reason that Renee has already outlined - more degrees, more education, etc...).

To add a bit more, the company that my wife works for was built in a suburb and a good 70% of the employees that work there are housewives that live within 5 miles of the office.  They pay lower than most companies I know of, but my wife gets off at 3 every day and works from home on Thursdays, gets 6 weeks PTO, and EXCEPTIONAL health insurance.  All of these things cater to working moms and go figure if that isn't their main workforce.  The company culture is even set up that way.  They give you days to volunteer at your kids school.

There are places that do not operate that way and It seems to me, like I said before, that Social stigma related to women in the workforce is evening out, but to think it's gone and it's a non-issue just sounds like burying your head in the sand.

2012-04-13 10:55 AM
in reply to: #4148451

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
jgaither - 2012-04-13 10:33 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 8:59 AM
ell-in-or - 2012-04-13 2:46 AM

Here's a small N=4 sample of child care bias. At my office, the women are the ones who use their sick days to stay home with sick kids. Their husbands never do, or at least not once in the 5 years I've been there. 

Those women have crappy husbands in that regard. 

My wife and I are both managers....I have no problem telling my boss that my wife's career is as important to our family as mine is, and she stayed home with the kids the last time they were sick, so now it's my turn. If I had a boss who balked then the next time I would just call in sick and say nothing of the kids.

Sometimes the biggest obstacle for women is the man they choose as a partner. 

If you are saying that the bias is not there anymore, then I'd have to disagree.  If you are simply saying they have crappy husbands, then disregard the rest as I have no comment on your opinion of their husbands.  In my personal experience that bias is a reality that women have to deal with.  My wife gets 6 weeks PTO I get 3 weeks vacation + 10 sick days.  I am one of the few men that I know that take time off for kids doctor appt and sick days,  we usually schedule it around who has meetings and who doesn't.  It is dependent on whose circumstances best suit the situation at the time.  That being said, most of the time she takes it because she has more days available than I do.  In times when we've just had a bad string of luck (illnesses, doctor appt, field trips, etc... all in a row) she has had comments made to her about being at work.  But the default understanding was always that the woman would stay home with the sick kids.  In turn, when I first started taking days off for these things I got funny looks from the the WOMEN at my work, not to mention my boss.  Their belief was that was the woman's job.  It has since settled and no one has said anything in a long time but the comment directly from my boss was "Well families are different these days than when I was younger."  Which was his way of telling me he understood.  The bias is still out there as best I can tell and I've tried to look up a study, but all I came up with was a survey conducted by a random source that I don't know if I'd trust, but women are still the primary caregivers for kids and while that is evening out with the shifting of "normal family" structures, it is still a reality that many women have to deal with.  To top that off, more and more women are not only the primary caretakers for their kids but also the main bread winner (I believe for the reason that Renee has already outlined - more degrees, more education, etc...).

To add a bit more, the company that my wife works for was built in a suburb and a good 70% of the employees that work there are housewives that live within 5 miles of the office.  They pay lower than most companies I know of, but my wife gets off at 3 every day and works from home on Thursdays, gets 6 weeks PTO, and EXCEPTIONAL health insurance.  All of these things cater to working moms and go figure if that isn't their main workforce.  The company culture is even set up that way.  They give you days to volunteer at your kids school.

There are places that do not operate that way and It seems to me, like I said before, that Social stigma related to women in the workforce is evening out, but to think it's gone and it's a non-issue just sounds like burying your head in the sand.

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

 

2012-04-13 11:25 AM
in reply to: #4148519

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

2012-04-13 11:49 AM
in reply to: #4148601

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
jgaither - 2012-04-13 11:25 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

I agree with you 100% that it's a ridiculous social construct....but I'd still argue that it doesn't exist as much in the workplace as it does on the personal (family) level. 

I know plenty of men who think it is their wife's job to stay home with sick kids, and the wife then compounds it by letting it happen and not standing up for herself if needed. Both are wrong IMO. 



2012-04-13 11:52 AM
in reply to: #4148672

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:49 PM
jgaither - 2012-04-13 11:25 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

I agree with you 100% that it's a ridiculous social construct....but I'd still argue that it doesn't exist as much in the workplace as it does on the personal (family) level. 

I know plenty of men who think it is their wife's job to stay home with sick kids, and the wife then compounds it by letting it happen and not standing up for herself if needed. Both are wrong IMO. 

add to that the women who don't LET their husbands take care of their kids except for occasional "babysitting" (shudder) and yes i know plenty of women that don't like their kids being home with their own fathers.



Edited by mehaner 2012-04-13 11:53 AM
2012-04-13 11:55 AM
in reply to: #4148684

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
mehaner - 2012-04-13 11:52 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:49 PM
jgaither - 2012-04-13 11:25 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

I agree with you 100% that it's a ridiculous social construct....but I'd still argue that it doesn't exist as much in the workplace as it does on the personal (family) level. 

I know plenty of men who think it is their wife's job to stay home with sick kids, and the wife then compounds it by letting it happen and not standing up for herself if needed. Both are wrong IMO. 

add to that the women who don't LET their husbands take care of their kids except for occasional "babysitting" (shudder) and yes i know plenty of women that don't like their kids being home with their own fathers.

Yep, that  too....and way wrong.

2012-04-13 12:05 PM
in reply to: #4148696

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:55 PM
mehaner - 2012-04-13 11:52 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:49 PM
jgaither - 2012-04-13 11:25 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

I agree with you 100% that it's a ridiculous social construct....but I'd still argue that it doesn't exist as much in the workplace as it does on the personal (family) level. 

I know plenty of men who think it is their wife's job to stay home with sick kids, and the wife then compounds it by letting it happen and not standing up for herself if needed. Both are wrong IMO. 

add to that the women who don't LET their husbands take care of their kids except for occasional "babysitting" (shudder) and yes i know plenty of women that don't like their kids being home with their own fathers.

Yep, that  too....and way wrong.

i certainly plan on dumping my future children on my husband half the time because i need my me time and my girl time.  with the dogs we do vet dropoffs and pickups based on who can do it, kids shouldn't be any different.  neither of us has had any kids before - we're both equally clueless on how to take care of them and not mess them up for life ;-)

2012-04-13 12:08 PM
in reply to: #4148722

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
mehaner - 2012-04-13 12:05 PM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:55 PM
mehaner - 2012-04-13 11:52 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 12:49 PM
jgaither - 2012-04-13 11:25 AM
Left Brain - 2012-04-13 10:55 AM 

That bias only exists anymore because men AND women allow it to.  My wife and I alternate staying home with the kids if needed. I have a boss now who understands, but if I didn't I'd work around him as I always have, so would my wife.  17 people work for me, 2 women and the rest men.....they know I expect that their family will be their first consideration. 

If it's the woman who always has to stay home with the sick kids, and both work, then I'll stick with my origional statement....her partner sucks.  IF she hasn't said anything or wants to be the one who always stays home, then there is obviously no bias.

Face it, employers care about getting the work done, they don't want ANYONE staying home. Making it even is up to families.....it's really not that hard.  My experience has been that we have ALWAYS been able to share the load...easily. 

I think you touch on the complexity of the issue.  Where you say that social construct is "allowed" to happen, I say it just hasn't evolved to that point yet.  Working around a boss who doesn't understand is allowing the continuation of that construct, it's not doing anything about it.  It does not force the manager who doesn't understand to deal with or reconcile the issue.  You're talking about shifting the paradigm under which a person's values are set and that is more of an evolutionary process carried out over time (generations?) in IMO.

It appears though that we both agree that in today's world there is no reason to have that social construct.

I agree with you 100% that it's a ridiculous social construct....but I'd still argue that it doesn't exist as much in the workplace as it does on the personal (family) level. 

I know plenty of men who think it is their wife's job to stay home with sick kids, and the wife then compounds it by letting it happen and not standing up for herself if needed. Both are wrong IMO. 

add to that the women who don't LET their husbands take care of their kids except for occasional "babysitting" (shudder) and yes i know plenty of women that don't like their kids being home with their own fathers.

Yep, that  too....and way wrong.

i certainly plan on dumping my future children on my husband half the time because i need my me time and my girl time.  with the dogs we do vet dropoffs and pickups based on who can do it, kids shouldn't be any different.  neither of us has had any kids before - we're both equally clueless on how to take care of them and not mess them up for life ;-)

When you are both involved and work together it's not easy to mess them up.....it creates a great environment of trust and security in your family and your children will thrive.  The little details of "how" take care of themselves.

2012-04-15 6:34 PM
in reply to: #4144746

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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?

Very interesting thread and so many hooks to catch onto and comment on...I'm going to try to stick with the original.

First of all, define "upwardly mobile".  Are we speaking solely about careers/professional standing?  Because I'm a librarian.  I believe something like 80% of librarians are female and about 80% of library directors are male (mine isn't, btw, and is FAR more effective than the male library director I worked under before).  Librarians and library directors are hired by the same group:  the board of trustees.  I did a little more quick research (of course I did) and discovered that trustee boards are approximately 65% female.  And there you have it in library world--women are the obstacle.  On the other hand, within this field, there is bias against men.  Oh, we all talk about it and say we need more male role models in the library, but a male children's librarian is going to have a serious uphill battle (I've met two).  Bottom line--we don't trust men with children. And that's a crying shame, whether you argue that it's valid or not.

If you're defining "upwardly mobile" in purely personal terms, well then it's all about the woman herself.  You are your own responsibility and you don't get to pass that off without serious consequences.



2012-04-16 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
punkster - 2012-04-12 9:43 AM

I think it is the fact that women must be "superwomen" and do it all.  In my generation (I'm in my 50's) women were encouraged to work and raise a family.  We tended to do all the things related to child rearing, house cleaning, cooking, etc. etc. etc. -while also holding down full time jobs. 

I chose to put my career on hold, work "part time" and raise my two boys.  I am happy to say that the oldest is graduating in June with degrees in both mechanical and aerospace engineering, and has had three job offers.  My youngest has been offered admission to six universities with merit scholarships, and will be majoring in bioengineering.  I'm not saying that I am due all the credit (my husband is due a lot of credit).  My youngest son is quick to remind me that he has made his own good choices.  However, I can't help but think that investing in their lives has helped my boys.  

The flip side of that coin is that I have not advanced in my career as much as I would have had I been working full time.  However, I would not change what I did AT ALL.  I have a friend in my profession who has advanced a lot in her career.  She has three kids, and has always worked full time.  She once confided in me that if she had it to do over again that she would have spent more time with her kids.

Anyway, we all have to make choices.  What exactly does upward mobility mean?  I guess we have to decide what kind of a contribution we want to make with our lives. 

 



This reply stuck out to me because I asked myself, what would happen if one of punkster's children was a daughter, who, with the benefit of of both her great parenting (regardless of whether or not she worked outside the home) and the potential benefit of a mom who was able to be that much more involved in her life, ended up with great university offers, the potential of a couple of wonderful degrees and a great career. Would she turn that all down in order to then raise another daughter who could potentially achieve all that but who would turn it down to raise another daughter, etc etc.


2012-04-16 3:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with a person themself (the person in the mirror).  I think the greatest obstacle is people with power (men) afraid of losing or sharing that power.  In 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries the situations may be different (religion, culture, wealth) but it's always about the haves trying to keep the have-nots from getting.

And that means women as well.  You can be a strong, smart, talented, able and great as you can possibly be, look at yourself with absolute pride in the mirror... but there will still be a man in power who will try to keep you down for fear of sharing that power.

Sorry.

 

2012-04-16 3:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-04-16 4:28 PM

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with a person themself (the person in the mirror).  I think the greatest obstacle is people with power (men) afraid of losing or sharing that power.  In 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries the situations may be different (religion, culture, wealth) but it's always about the haves trying to keep the have-nots from getting.

And that means women as well.  You can be a strong, smart, talented, able and great as you can possibly be, look at yourself with absolute pride in the mirror... but there will still be a man in power who will try to keep you down for fear of sharing that power.

Sorry.

 

i think that is absolutely true in some places, but that culture is really truly changing in a lot of places.

2012-04-16 3:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
mehaner - 2012-04-16 4:50 PM
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-04-16 4:28 PM

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with a person themself (the person in the mirror).  I think the greatest obstacle is people with power (men) afraid of losing or sharing that power.  In 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries the situations may be different (religion, culture, wealth) but it's always about the haves trying to keep the have-nots from getting.

And that means women as well.  You can be a strong, smart, talented, able and great as you can possibly be, look at yourself with absolute pride in the mirror... but there will still be a man in power who will try to keep you down for fear of sharing that power.

Sorry.

 

i think that is absolutely true in some places, but that culture is really truly changing in a lot of places.

That goes for women in power, as well. I've known some empire-building women in my 2 careers (corporate trust administration and recruiting/staffing). They were covetous of glory, recognition and advancement. Same as their male counterparts.

Power never concedes. It's not a gender thing.

2012-04-16 4:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-04-16 3:28 PM

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with a person themself (the person in the mirror).  I think the greatest obstacle is people with power (men) afraid of losing or sharing that power.  In 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries the situations may be different (religion, culture, wealth) but it's always about the haves trying to keep the have-nots from getting.

And that means women as well.  You can be a strong, smart, talented, able and great as you can possibly be, look at yourself with absolute pride in the mirror... but there will still be a man in power who will try to keep you down for fear of sharing that power.

Sorry.

 

 

Nah.... it has nothing to do with gender when it comes to power.  People who covet power do their best to keep everyone else down, men and women.

 

ETA - I see Renee beat me to it. Laughing



Edited by Left Brain 2012-04-16 4:06 PM


2012-04-16 4:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Bigfuzzydoug - 2012-04-16 3:28 PM

To be honest, I don't think it has anything to do with a person themself (the person in the mirror).  I think the greatest obstacle is people with power (men) afraid of losing or sharing that power.  In 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries the situations may be different (religion, culture, wealth) but it's always about the haves trying to keep the have-nots from getting.

And that means women as well.  You can be a strong, smart, talented, able and great as you can possibly be, look at yourself with absolute pride in the mirror... but there will still be a man in power who will try to keep you down for fear of sharing that power.

Sorry.

 

I don't see it as much of a power thing.  I see it as more of a hiring and promoting people that are similar to you.  When you hire/promote someone you're going to need to work with regularly, one of the things you will evaluate is your personal desire to work with someone that you're going to get along with.  In hiring you won't get a ton of feel for this, so you'll go based on looks/gender.  The people I usually most get along with are guys about my age. There are other superficial attributes I could identify, but you get the idea.  On some level when I hire someone I'm going to be thinking about that.  If I'm good at hiring people, I will hire the person who will be the best for the company.  But not everyone is good at looking beyond their personal desires.

2012-04-17 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
  

This reply stuck out to me because I asked myself, what would happen if one of punkster's children was a daughter, who, with the benefit of of both her great parenting (regardless of whether or not she worked outside the home) and the potential benefit of a mom who was able to be that much more involved in her life, ended up with great university offers, the potential of a couple of wonderful degrees and a great career. Would she turn that all down in order to then raise another daughter who could potentially achieve all that but who would turn it down to raise another daughter, etc etc.

You raise an interesting question.  This might make it more interesting.  I have two co workers who are gay.  One is a man, who has adopted two children with his partner.  He has a master's degree, and they have decided that he will stay home and "raise" the children (one boy and one girl) while the partner works.  They firmly believe that one of them should be there most of the time while the children are young. 

My other co worker is a gay female, who has a partner.  They plan on adopting children, and one of them will stay home full time with them. 

These two examples clearly illustrate that it is not just females who decide to turn down a great career to raise children. 

I forgot to add in my last post that I am now working full time in my field.  I have managed to advance quite rapidly, although not as far as I would have had I been working full time. Unlike some of my fellow professionals, I am not burned out.  I am still fresh. 

If I had had a daughter I would encourage her to pursue schooling and her career- whatever she wanted.  I raised my kids to think that it just wasn't an option not to go to college.  It would be up to her and her life partner to decide how they wanted to raise their children. 

 

 



Edited by punkster 2012-04-17 8:45 AM
2012-04-19 12:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Greatest obstacle for woman?
Congratulations on the career front, and yes, the same sex couples also add an interesting viewpoint.
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