Swim Issue with Feet/Kick
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2012-04-12 1:11 PM |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick I have been taking a weekly swim lesson at the Y for the past several weeks. My swim sucks even though I am really trying. Luckily, the past two times the other students no-showed, so I got a private lesson! My teacher says my form is pretty good, at least from the waist up. He says my feet/kick are really slowing me down. He had me swim with a pull buoy and I was lightning fast, easily 30% faster than without. He said I don't point my toes and it would be better for me to NOT kick and just point my toes, rather than kick with my toes pointed towards the bottom of the pool. I can't seem to point my toes and am pretty frustrated. I can't not kick or I feel like I am falling in the water. He suggested maybe I should get a pair of fins. I don't know if this is a good or bad idea. I also wonder if swimming with a wetsuit will give the same amount of buoyancy as a pull buoy, I have a sleeveless one that is new and I am reluctant to use it in the pool as I have heard the chlorine will damage it. Has anyone had similar experience and have a good solution?? |
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2012-04-12 1:20 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Extreme Veteran 724 | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick You have much of the same issues I do. I often get cramps if I point my feet too long. I was speaking with my local tri shop guy who is a former collegiate swimmer. He told me that if I'm swimming 2000 yards with a pull buoy, I will have no issue doing a HIM swim in a wetsuit and that I should focus on increasing my ankle flexibility to make myself more efficient in the water even if I'm not kicking much. I know it isn't perfect, but it works for me. PS: I'm swimming about 1:41/100's for my 2000 yard swim w/ a pull buoy. I don't think I could even finish that swim w/o one. Edited by PeteDin206 2012-04-12 1:21 PM |
2012-04-12 1:20 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Can you post some video? Feet sinking usually means head / chest are up. Are you pulling your head up too much when you breathe? Try a couple strokes without breathing and see if you're able to hold a better position in the water.
Has anyone had similar experience and have a good solution?? As to the toe flexibility: some sets with fins can help. Also I used to sit on my knees a bit while watching tv. It's an easy way to stretch - just do it carefully at first. Edited by spudone 2012-04-12 1:23 PM |
2012-04-12 1:22 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Master 1970 Somewhere on the Tennessee River | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Exercises that might help are toe raises. Think tiptoes. Strengthening your calves with help with pulling your feet into the position needed. If it is a flexibility issue then a good exercise is a variation on sitting on your heels, except with your feet pointing behind you. Like this. Edited by MadMathemagician 2012-04-12 1:25 PM |
2012-04-12 1:33 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Regular 91 Here | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick I can't understand why you are having trouble pointing your toes but try just kicking. Try kicking with a kick board and kicking without one. Either way, don't use your arms. This will force you to use your legs efficiently to propel forward. Using fins should also help as it will magnify the problem and help you reach a solution faster. As for wetsuits, especially tri-wetsuits, they will definitely help with buoyancy. In fact they are designed to add extra buoyancy to the legs since triathletes generally have heavy legs. Hope this helps. |
2012-04-12 1:42 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Elite 5145 Cleveland | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick In some of the videos on here, I've heard this referred to as Runner's Kick. Your feet are basically staying at a 90 degree angle to your legs, and thus acting like a brake on your propulsion. That comes from tight ankles and lower legs. Work on just relaxing your ankles... while seated, just wiggle your lower leg and get your foot to flop around. That's how you want them to be in the water. Just my $0.02 and understanding of it, but I'm also a very novice swimmer as well. |
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2012-04-12 1:44 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick I can try posting a video. Maybe I can bribe my kids into taking one. I thought maybe my hips were too low so I tried swimming "downhill" but my teacher said my head was TOO LOW! He said that's unusual so I made my head flat and he said that was better. |
2012-04-12 2:19 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Master 2010 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick It will also help you to stretch your ankles. You may have very stiff ankles. One easy way is to sit on your feet with you heels under your bum. you can do this while watching tv, reading, etc. If this is difficult for you, you def have stiff ankles |
2012-04-12 2:25 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Master 2010 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Here is an excellent article from tjfry:
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2012-04-13 9:20 AM in reply to: #4146567 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick datlas - 2012-04-12 12:44 PM I can try posting a video. Maybe I can bribe my kids into taking one. I thought maybe my hips were too low so I tried swimming "downhill" but my teacher said my head was TOO LOW! He said that's unusual so I made my head flat and he said that was better. When you get it right int only feels downhill because most people are swimming "uphill". Some people try to compensate by pushing just the head down bending forward at eitehr the neck or the waist...that creates it's own set of problems. You want to have good tall posture, but will most likely have to put pressure on the front of your chest, from armpit to armpit in order to get the"downhill" feelign without burying your head. |
2012-04-13 10:16 AM in reply to: #4146742 |
Expert 2380 Mastic Beach, NY | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Nipper - 2012-04-12 2:25 PM Here is an excellent article from tjfry:
Thanks for posting this article. I've been having the same issues with my kick but it's slowly been improving. |
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2012-04-13 10:49 AM in reply to: #4148392 |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick strikyr - 2012-04-13 10:16 AM Nipper - 2012-04-12 2:25 PM Here is an excellent article from tjfry:
Thanks for posting this article. I've been having the same issues with my kick but it's slowly been improving. Yes thanks for posting it. I have to get some flippers (maybe will hit WalMart) and give them a try. |
2012-04-13 1:31 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
New user 433 | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick To me sounds like a balance issue and your toes not pointing is just minor problem. If your kick is really slowing you down, then your legs are dropping. I'm not sure I would agree with your instructor to throw you on a buoy or use fins. If you have good balance then your kick only helps you maintain form not to move you forward. The buoys and fins will just give you a false sense of swimming in balance, but you need to learn without these tools. I know this is frustrating especially starting. You want to power your way through the water, instead of gliding through it. Once you get this down, you will find you barely kick, unless you are purposely doing a speed set. These tools help you save energy for your upper body to focus on upper body skills learning. I swam for a year and moved from beginner to intermidate to where my hips dropped but not as bad as a newbie. I met an ex-pro triathelete who swam with me for 30 minutes. He grave one drill to work on that will help give you that balance feeling, which fixes your lower half. Swim slowly with one arm forward on your side, press down with your arm pit/chest area until you feel air on your hips/legs. The important aspect is the feeling in your arm pit/chest area...it is the feeling of when you are in balance. It will take awhile, maybe lowering head, maybe raising head, maybe be raising arm entry, maybe lowering arm entry, might have to kick a tad more to maintain a little speed..but don't over kick.... play with your body position...the feeling will feel like your arm pit/chest area is a fishing bobbier or jug of air...you can push down and your lower body will rise.. . Once you imprint that feeling and identify with it, when you swim normal you will glide, stroke, head align, rotate shoulders, raise hips for that feeling. It will feel like a light bulb went off once you get it... I dropped at least 30 seconds from my 100ms just getting my balanced fixed, besides all the energy savings. |
2012-04-13 1:58 PM in reply to: #4148968 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick chenny - 2012-04-13 12:31 PM I met an ex-pro triathelete who swam with me for 30 minutes. He grave one drill to work on that will help give you that balance feeling, which fixes your lower half. Swim slowly with one arm forward on your side, press down with your arm pit/chest area until you feel air on your hips/legs. The important aspect is the feeling in your arm pit/chest area...it is the feeling of when you are in balance. Well said. This is SOOO important. One of my own swimmers doesn't believe this...it's still his biggest problem and when I tell him to try this he looks great fora bout 5 yards then says, "That's too much work". You need to know what parts to put your time & energy towards, and this is one of them. |
2012-04-13 3:36 PM in reply to: #4149047 |
New user 433 | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Its sort of weird position for me, before meeting this guy and after. Once you recognize, learn this position, and take advantage of it, you won't go back. Its hard to convince people, they just have to see the benefits themselves of swimming with balance. You can tell them about the topic, hips up and such, but they need that feeling and see the wow for themselves. The other day, I swam some 100s next to a guy. I was swimming my slow pace, very slow stroke count, mostly focusing on glide, and was swimming a little faster then the guy next to me who had a high stroke count, really fighting the water. He was huffing and puffing. I was relaxed and just in the zone.
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2012-04-13 3:55 PM in reply to: #4149047 |
Expert 1566 Prattville Insane Asylum San Antonio | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick AdventureBear - 2012-04-13 1:58 PM chenny - 2012-04-13 12:31 PM I met an ex-pro triathelete who swam with me for 30 minutes. He grave one drill to work on that will help give you that balance feeling, which fixes your lower half. Swim slowly with one arm forward on your side, press down with your arm pit/chest area until you feel air on your hips/legs. The important aspect is the feeling in your arm pit/chest area...it is the feeling of when you are in balance. Well said. This is SOOO important. One of my own swimmers doesn't believe this...it's still his biggest problem and when I tell him to try this he looks great fora bout 5 yards then says, "That's too much work". You need to know what parts to put your time & energy towards, and this is one of them.This is an awesome tip! I have started doing some drills to help improve my balance and buoyancy in the water, and this one is has been really helpful! |
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2012-04-13 5:03 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick Well I went to the local swim store and bought a pair of "Sprint Vertex II Training Fins." I will be trying them out in the pool tonight...keeping my fingers crossed that this will help. |
2012-04-13 7:36 PM in reply to: #4149047 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick AdventureBear - 2012-04-13 1:58 PM chenny - 2012-04-13 12:31 PM I met an ex-pro triathelete who swam with me for 30 minutes. He grave one drill to work on that will help give you that balance feeling, which fixes your lower half. Swim slowly with one arm forward on your side, press down with your arm pit/chest area until you feel air on your hips/legs. The important aspect is the feeling in your arm pit/chest area...it is the feeling of when you are in balance. Well said. This is SOOO important. One of my own swimmers doesn't believe this...it's still his biggest problem and when I tell him to try this he looks great fora bout 5 yards then says, "That's too much work". You need to know what parts to put your time & energy towards, and this is one of them.This is an excellent description! Helped me remember what to feel for on today's swim, and it went rather well. For me at least. |
2012-04-13 7:38 PM in reply to: #4149047 |
Expert 2380 Mastic Beach, NY | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick AdventureBear - 2012-04-13 1:58 PM chenny - 2012-04-13 12:31 PM I met an ex-pro triathelete who swam with me for 30 minutes. He grave one drill to work on that will help give you that balance feeling, which fixes your lower half. Swim slowly with one arm forward on your side, press down with your arm pit/chest area until you feel air on your hips/legs. The important aspect is the feeling in your arm pit/chest area...it is the feeling of when you are in balance. Well said. This is SOOO important. One of my own swimmers doesn't believe this...it's still his biggest problem and when I tell him to try this he looks great fora bout 5 yards then says, "That's too much work". You need to know what parts to put your time & energy towards, and this is one of them.Is there a video that can be referenced to see the drill being done properly. I have seen a few but they seem to be done a little differently than what is being explained here. |
2012-04-13 8:49 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick UPDATE: I went to the pool and did several laps with the flippers. Then several without. Repeated with/without like any other drill. Indeed I was much faster and able to just do two kicks per stroke with the fins. However I noticed that my natural tendency was to swim "flat" and not side-to-side like you are supposed to. When I took them off I seemed to go back to my usual crappy kick form and slow stroke. So I am not sure if these have helped me. It's hard to judge. My main concern is that when I try to swim with the normal body twist, the fins work against this...in this way I am concerned that they are "worse" than swimming with a pull buoy, which still allows me to twist from side to side with each stroke. Comments? Suggestions? p.s. I will try the drill chenny suggested, although I would also be interested in seeing a video of it. Edited by datlas 2012-04-13 8:53 PM |
2012-04-13 8:58 PM in reply to: #4146384 |
Expert 1566 Prattville Insane Asylum San Antonio | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_y3l7ycALw @ 2:24 they have a nice view of it, but not sure if this is the exact one you are looking for. |
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2012-04-13 10:14 PM in reply to: #4149768 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick datlas - 2012-04-13 8:49 PM UPDATE: I went to the pool and did several laps with the flippers. Then several without. Repeated with/without like any other drill. Indeed I was much faster and able to just do two kicks per stroke with the fins. However I noticed that my natural tendency was to swim "flat" and not side-to-side like you are supposed to. When I took them off I seemed to go back to my usual crappy kick form and slow stroke. So I am not sure if these have helped me. It's hard to judge. My main concern is that when I try to swim with the normal body twist, the fins work against this...in this way I am concerned that they are "worse" than swimming with a pull buoy, which still allows me to twist from side to side with each stroke. Comments? Suggestions? p.s. I will try the drill chenny suggested, although I would also be interested in seeing a video of it. If I understand this right, the biggest thing this type of fins will do is help improve the ankle flexibility & strength. Your kick form isn't really going to get any better from them, especially not from 1 session. Hopefully one of the fish can help add more to this. Not sure you really want to try swimming or just stick with kick sets in them for the reasons you saw. I'm also curious if any of them have tried the Aquasphere Alpha Fins. I've heard they can actually help this, and they feel significantly different than more traditional fins. |
2012-04-13 10:16 PM in reply to: #4149768 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick datlas - 2012-04-13 8:49 PM UPDATE: I went to the pool and did several laps with the flippers. Then several without. Repeated with/without like any other drill. Indeed I was much faster and able to just do two kicks per stroke with the fins. However I noticed that my natural tendency was to swim "flat" and not side-to-side like you are supposed to. When I took them off I seemed to go back to my usual crappy kick form and slow stroke. So I am not sure if these have helped me. It's hard to judge. My main concern is that when I try to swim with the normal body twist, the fins work against this...in this way I am concerned that they are "worse" than swimming with a pull buoy, which still allows me to twist from side to side with each stroke. Comments? Suggestions? p.s. I will try the drill chenny suggested, although I would also be interested in seeing a video of it. Are you trying to get a better kick or trying to figure out rotation? Two much different things. If you want to work on getting your ankles to be more flexible, then put on the fins and kick like you stole something. If you want to learn rotation, take the fins off and focus on some very different things...but that's probably a new thread altogether. |
2012-04-13 10:39 PM in reply to: #4149878 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick TJ - can you learn to kick well without fins by just working at it? Or do the fins really make that much of a difference? |
2012-04-14 5:31 AM in reply to: #4149878 |
Member 796 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Swim Issue with Feet/Kick tjfry - 2012-04-13 10:16 PM datlas - 2012-04-13 8:49 PM UPDATE: I went to the pool and did several laps with the flippers. Then several without. Repeated with/without like any other drill. Indeed I was much faster and able to just do two kicks per stroke with the fins. However I noticed that my natural tendency was to swim "flat" and not side-to-side like you are supposed to. When I took them off I seemed to go back to my usual crappy kick form and slow stroke. So I am not sure if these have helped me. It's hard to judge. My main concern is that when I try to swim with the normal body twist, the fins work against this...in this way I am concerned that they are "worse" than swimming with a pull buoy, which still allows me to twist from side to side with each stroke. Comments? Suggestions? p.s. I will try the drill chenny suggested, although I would also be interested in seeing a video of it. Are you trying to get a better kick or trying to figure out rotation? Two much different things. If you want to work on getting your ankles to be more flexible, then put on the fins and kick like you stole something. If you want to learn rotation, take the fins off and focus on some very different things...but that's probably a new thread altogether. Well what I am really trying to do is swim faster with less effort. My instructor at the Y said that the reason I am pretty fast with the pull buoy but slow without is that my kick is slowing me down, my toes are pointed towards the bottom of the pool and I need learn to point them. I am not 100% convinced this is my problem, but clearly there is something going on if I can swim 30% faster with a pool buoy, right? BTW for comparison purposes, I can run a few 8 minute miles, I can maintain 19-20MPH on my bike for an hour, but my 100m times in the pool are around 2:40 which from what I can tell means my swim is not good at all in comparison to run and bike times. |
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