Zipp 404 vs 808

There are quite a few articles written about the different benefits of each of these wheels. Generally speaking, this is what they say...

• Deep wheels are generally more aerodynamic and save more time over a flat or rolling course
• Deep wheels are generally less stable in cross winds and should therefore not be ridden by inexperienced or lighter riders.
• Shallower wheels are generally less aerodynamic, but are lighter and therefore save time on a hilly course.
• Shallower wheels are more stable in a cross wind.

The 404's are generally considered a balanced wheel set that combines the benefits of deep wheel aerodynamics while still maintaining a lower weight. Because of this balance, many road cyclists use the wheels because of the various types of events they enter. Triathletes tend to use deeper wheels because the courses are generally flat and you are not allowed to draft (who cares about aerodynamics if your drafting). 

BTW you stated you want Carbon Clinchers...have you researched the differences in the way the braking surface works for Carbon Clinchers vs. Carbon Clinchers with alloy braking surfaces?

With the weight differences being discussed in all cases here, just forget about it. Too small to matter.

I believe the braking differences are more with consistency. Carbon surfaces can do well, but don't brake as consistently well. More so with inclement weather. One stop may be ok, but the next could take noticeably longer. Have surfaces and pads improved very recently?

Wind handling is more rider dependent, but there is the tendency of rider size. I'm a little bigger than you are and will be fine with my S80's (basically older 808's) in pretty much anything. The next guy may not be so comfortable. There are 115-120 lb riders using them in winds though, and doing fine. And it's the front wheel that matters more, as that's the wind will affect the most with the steering. If you're not sure of your bike handling, or feel you'd be backing off a little with an 808 then a 404 would be fine. Keep in mind just how good both wheels are. You won't go wrong with either one, really.

NeverEnough - 2012-04-22 2:48 PM I have heard braking is poorer on carbon clincher and i need different brake pads. The alloy clincherss would be heavier though....wouldn't they? Also....how bad is the braking on carbon clinchers? Thanks for the info....still can't make up my mind though

I have not had a chance to ride the latest Zipp carbon clinchers, but my rainy 20+mi demo road ride last yr in last gen 404 CC's was eye-opening. I rode my bike w/ Ksyrium SSC/SL's to the group demo ride where Zipp rep swapped 'em for 404 CC's (with Zipp pads). So I had true apples-apples comparo under IDENTICAL conditions (road, weather).  Braking distance was (my est) 15-20% worse than typical AL clincher.  Definitely enough to keep your attention. Not as big an issue for tri (vs road racing or all-around group rides), but clearly something to be aware of.  It strongly influenced my decision to go with AL-rimmed clincher when I bought aero wheels for all-around use. Ended up with HED Jet 6's (vs their Stinger 6), but would have chosen 404 AL clinchers if I went Zipp.

Re 404 vs 808's CC's- Agree that it's choice between slight difference in weight vs aero.  According to Zipp- about 200g weight vs 16sec aero advantage for flat 40k TT .

http://www.zipp.com/technologies/aerodynamics/aeroedge.php

404 also exhibits slightly less side force in cross winds vs 808 (item 3 in this link)

Prob not very significant since this difference represents only a small fraction of overall side force in cross winds (i.e. functional cross sectional area of rider + bike + wheels/tires).

http://www.zipp.com/search/search.php?search=1&query=side+force&boxbutton=Go

Go for the 808s because they are more aero. Aero trumps weight unless you're racing in the mountains. Also, unless you are a tiny 120 lbs, I don't think the handling characteristics in windy conditions will bother you much. You can even buy just a front wheel 808 and get wheel cover for the rear wheel essentially converting your reaar wheel to a disc. You'll be more aero for a fraction of the cost of a set of 808s.

Jay

I am thinking about the 808's....but was researching carbon clinchers vs 808s with the alloy braking surface.  Unfortunately, the alloys are not firecrest and from what I have read, the firecrest model works much better than the older model in wind.   Just when I thought I had it figured out.  Thinking I will call Zipp tomorrow and speak to them about what I should do.  

I did the middle of the road approach, 404 front, 808 rear, and they never come off my bike as I'm using them for training AND racing.

Mine are the carbon / aluminum clinchers.  They seem bomb-proof to me.

Today's training ride featured winds to 20+, I'm sure I'd still be alive with a 808 front but I could feel the big puffs tug on my 404 front and felt good that I'd made the right choice.

Do you think the carbon/aluminum are more sturdy than the carbon clinchers?  I plan on training with whatever I end up with.

The "much better" part really depends on your frame of reference and is where many people over think things and get carried away with just how much they *need*. As you are seeing first hand at the moment.

I'm not convinced many people could tell the difference, except perhaps in the braking performance. That's not to say there isn't one, but that the perception of it grows significantly the more it is stared at.

I have Zipp 404s and they've been a great addition to my race quiver.

Also have a set of 1080's but let me tell ya, I probably will only use as a rear only in most races, bc the front is pretty tricky in cross winds. I raced once so far with both on, and it was fine, but almost no wind.

The 808's are probably way easier to control, but still judging by the 404's...strong winds will still be difficult to control.

both are the alum clinchers, and I like that bc I hate the idea of switching out brake pads for carbon rims.

You can always go with a 404/808 combination.

Also, you might want to do some research on the bike you want to use the Zipp FC wheels on.  They are significantly wider than the older model Zipps and can may be too wide for some frames...especially if you have integrated rear  brakes.

as has already been stated, the basic advantage of the 404 is its handling in wind.  But that mostly applies to the front.  there's no disadvantage to the 808 on the rear.  So- might as well go 404/808.  

the advantage of the 808 over the 404 is mostly in a middle range of aspect.  So, if the wind is light or headwind, there's not much difference.  you get a nice benefit around 10-14 degrees or so (if I remember correctly) with the 808.  

you didn't mention what you were going to use these for.  frequency, conditions, course, etc.  

Without starting the whole "do you train with race wheels".....I will.  So...to answer that question, I will use them in all types of conditions.  I primarily ride long rides out in the country (or at least thats what I call it....there are cows and chickens) so winds could vary.  

Will the FC fit on a P2?

I would buy only a front wheel--the 808.  And use a disc cover on the rear.  Actually, that's exactly what I race on. 

Would only consider adding the 808 rear if I ever have to race at Kona. 

As far as "sturdy" I can only speculate that the carbon wheel will be lighter and stiffer but only marginally 'faster' and quite a bit more expensive (judging from used prices on eBay)

I bought my alum/carbon clincher 404/808 set on eBay- 3 years old, very lightly used -  for about 1300 bucks.   In other words, similar pricing to other new wheels but only lightly used and pretty high on  cool factor.

My perception was that if I am gonna use them daily, the aluminum brake track may  add a bit of durability to the mix in addition to providing better braking than the carbon braking surface for daily use.

My $0.02

As everyone is stating on this thread...cross winds do not matter on the back wheel. Therefore...if you ARE going to get a firecrest rim...make sure it is only the front one because the back one does not matter unless you really want your wheels to match.

Get a firecrest 404 or 808 on the front and then get a disc or disc cover for the back.