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2012-04-27 4:30 PM

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Subject: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
I'm getting my 100yd time down to 1:25 this season with 1000s on 1:45, and am looking for some more improvement (there being plenty of room). I am feeling good about my EVF catch and pull, but have largely ignored the push past mid-stroke, based on Karlyn Pipes-Neilson's teachings. Is there something there I should be looking for in a push phase?


2012-04-27 5:01 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Just curious ... is she your coach or did you take a clinic with her? Yes, to my knowledge she does not focus on push phase, nor do many other good coaches. It makes sense to me ... past about mid-stroke, it gets very difficult to "push" water back in order to make you move forward. Focusing on that part tends to make you push water slightly back but also upwards, which means it's just wasting energy moving your body downward into the water. Better to get that arm out and up front where you can do another pull.

So I don't think push phase work is going to do you much good. Is there any way you can post video of yourself swimming? Even from above the water/from the side/from the back/from the front can be helpful.

2012-04-27 6:28 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push


The fastest part of the swim stroke cycle, for each arm, is when the arm is finally fully adducted to the side and the forearm is perpendicular to the surface of the water. Make sure you are actively pushing at this point (and the opposite arm is streamlining). Beyond that point however, you'll see diminishing returns. No need to push to the thigh for example.

You can do some web searches for combined video & velocity measurements to see what I'm referring to. The slowest part of the stroke is at the end of the catch...I look at this part as storing up energy. The fastest part of the stroke is when the arm has finished adducting but the forearm is still vertical.

I consider anything from shoulder level & below to be a pushing action, so there is quite a bit of pushing , but not pulling depending on how you want to name things. The catch is a setup until the moment you can unleash the stored energy, which is pretty much all pushing.

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-04-27 6:30 PM
2012-04-27 6:37 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

MaverickNH - 2012-04-27 4:30 PM I'm getting my 100yd time down to 1:25 this season with 1000s on 1:45, and am looking for some more improvement (there being plenty of room). I am feeling good about my EVF catch and pull, but have largely ignored the push past mid-stroke, based on Karlyn Pipes-Neilson's teachings. Is there something there I should be looking for in a push phase?

As a complete aside, I am watching KPN swim some fantastic, jaw dropping times this weekend at USMS Spring Nationals.  1:01 in the 100 back and 1:00.52 in the 100 fly, crazy, double crazy.

2012-04-27 6:47 PM
in reply to: #4177580

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Fast Swim - 2012-04-27 5:37 PM

MaverickNH - 2012-04-27 4:30 PM I'm getting my 100yd time down to 1:25 this season with 1000s on 1:45, and am looking for some more improvement (there being plenty of room). I am feeling good about my EVF catch and pull, but have largely ignored the push past mid-stroke, based on Karlyn Pipes-Neilson's teachings. Is there something there I should be looking for in a push phase?

As a complete aside, I am watching KPN swim some fantastic, jaw dropping times this weekend at USMS Spring Nationals.  1:01 in the 100 back and 1:00.52 in the 100 fly, crazy, double crazy.



Yowsers!
2012-04-27 7:48 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Bedford, NH, USA
Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
I took a clinic from Karlyn and it helped me a lot. But my local gym has a Tri coach that feels the push phase is important. Doing some Googling since my OP, I find someone who finds the push phase to be significant http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/ While a biological scientist, I'm neither a swim coach nor a biomechanics scientist, so I'm not sure how well this work has been accepted by the swim science community.


2012-04-27 8:44 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
It depends what they are calling the push phase.

Many people think the push phase is the part past the waist, "finish at the thigh" for example. That part of the stroke doesn't do much. But the part between the catch and the finish is significant. There are good ways to do it and a lot of not good ways to do it. Some of it involves pushing...but if you puhs too hard or with the wrong muscle group you risk creating increased drag from funny body dynmaics & rotations. The swim tech guy actually mentions something along these lines.

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-04-27 8:44 PM
2012-04-27 9:59 PM
in reply to: #4177736

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

AdventureBear - 2012-04-28 9:44 AM It depends what they are calling the push phase. Many people think the push phase is the part past the waist, "finish at the thigh" for example. That part of the stroke doesn't do much. But the part between the catch and the finish is significant. There are good ways to do it and a lot of not good ways to do it. Some of it involves pushing...but if you puhs too hard or with the wrong muscle group you risk creating increased drag from funny body dynmaics & rotations. The swim tech guy actually mentions something along these lines.

x2 to all of it, and I should have been clearer about definition (or my definition) of "push phase" in my earlier post.

The swimtechnology site (or Dr. Havrilus, couldn't quite figure out if he determines everything on the site) describes "push phase" as anything past the shoulder. Yes, that would be significant! I don't think anybody, including KPN, advocates getting your hand/arm up out of the water and into recovery at shoulder point (this would be the weirdest-looking stroke ever).

"Mid-stroke" as I said isn't a particularly precise way to define it either, but I figure about waist. The hand still continues (but not very far, and that's the point of diminishing returns) as it's got to get up out of the water. It's my understanding and experience that that part of the stroke doesn't contain a lot of gains to be made, and therefore shouldn't be the focus of effort for the OP.

2012-04-28 7:50 AM
in reply to: #4177426

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Gary Hall SR has some videos on this on the race club site/channel. Best stuff for someone at your level to look at...TRUST ME ON THIS




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREFVv7yHzU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm in the orange cap in lane 2 (near the came). 200 metre Free in 2:06 after racing a 50 Fly, 100 Fly, 200 Fly, 200 Back & 200 Breast, 4 minutes after this I raced a 2:27 200 IM.
2012-04-28 10:34 AM
in reply to: #4178084

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
simpsonbo - 2012-04-28 6:50 AM

Gary Hall SR has some videos on this on the race club site/channel. Best stuff for someone at your level to look at...TRUST ME ON THIS




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREFVv7yHzU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm in the orange cap in lane 2 (near the came). 200 metre Free in 2:06 after racing a 50 Fly, 100 Fly, 200 Fly, 200 Back & 200 Breast, 4 minutes after this I raced a 2:27 200 IM.


Congrats, great times! And 15/16 SPL while racing. Excellent. Great example of the speed equation...stroke rate x stroke length = velocity. How active is your kick? I see only a small splash on the left side of the body I think...I can't tell if you are using a 6BK, but I'm guessing yes?

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-04-28 10:38 AM
2012-04-28 2:43 PM
in reply to: #4177580

Member
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Bedford, NH, USA
Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Fast Swim - 2012-04-27 7:37 PM

As a complete aside, I am watching KPN swim some fantastic, jaw dropping times this weekend at USMS Spring Nationals.  1:01 in the 100 back and 1:00.52 in the 100 fly, crazy, double crazy.

Glad KPN is winning after some down time. I can probably hit that pace skydiving :-)


2012-04-28 5:21 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Adduction or abduction? Not trying to be a smart a$$. Lol, I'm trying to figure the whole swim thing out too!
2012-04-28 10:59 PM
in reply to: #4178589

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
mad-dog - 2012-04-28 4:21 PM

Adduction or abduction? Not trying to be a smart a$$. Lol, I'm trying to figure the whole swim thing out too!


ADD. Just like me. Pretty sure I used AD duction twice in my original post. Teh point where the upper arm is nearly back alongside the body while the forearm is still perpendicular ot the water. AS opposed to the point where the elbow is as far away form the body as it can get. (that would be partial ABduction or partial ADduction depending on which direction you're starting from).

it really doesn't need to be complicated though. Think of pushing your body up out of hte swimming pool without using your knees to get on the deck. Hands start shoulder width around head level and as you jump up the elbows stay wide, hands stay with palms facing your feet and you keep pushing...if you set up the catch correctly and have an idea of what's supposed to happen your body can take over.

But if you have the word "pull" in mind, then people tend to drop the elbows as if they are pulling on a rope in a tug of war...picture how you'd bury your elbows in your ribs so you can "pull" against the rope...this ist he same thing that happens when people focus on "pulling" during the stroke. "Push" or "press" is a much better description.
2012-04-29 12:17 PM
in reply to: #4177426


14

Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

It’s always nice to get an opportunity to dialog about the
info posted on our swimmingtechnology.com website. In this post, I’d like to
address the importance of the push phase.

There are two propulsive phases of the arm in an effective
freestyle – the pull (from when the hand begins moving backwards until it
passes below the shoulders) and the push (from when the hand passes below the
shoulders until it stops moving backward).

Most swimmers don’t take full advantage of the push. As soon
as the arm passes below the shoulder, it is very natural to let the elbow move
upward in synch with the torso rotation. This is natural, but ineffective. An
example is posted on the STR website that shows a typical failure to increase
hand force on the push - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/aquanex/aquanex-examples-freestyle/ The swimmer’s elbow rapidly moves upward making the hand
move up more than back. Failure to increase force on the push is one of the
most common limiting factors.

STR has conducted thousands of Aquanex+Video trials that
capture underwater video and hand force data. Our ongoing research shows that
swimmers can double hand force from the pull to the push. For example, one
Olympian went from 35 lbs on the pull to almost 80 lbs on his push. More detail
is included in an article in USA Swimming’s Coaches Quarterly - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/technique-characteristics-of-olympic-sprinters/ Since hand force is directly related to swimming velocity,
it is essential that swimmers take full advantage of the push.

Chapter four of “Approaching Perfect Freestyle” explains the
four critical checkpoints within a stroke cycle. It can be downloaded for free
- http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/approaching-perfect-freestyle/sample-the-freestyle-e-book/ Chapter five explains the phases (including the push).

Rod Havriluk, Ph.D.

Swimming Technology Research



 

2012-04-30 8:42 PM
in reply to: #4179328

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push


Edited by Experior 2012-04-30 8:44 PM
2012-04-30 8:42 PM
in reply to: #4182531

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push


Edited by Experior 2012-04-30 8:44 PM


2012-04-30 8:43 PM
in reply to: #4182533

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Rod Havriluk - 2012-04-29 1:17 PM

It’s always nice to get an opportunity to dialog about the
info posted on our swimmingtechnology.com website. In this post, I’d like to
address the importance of the push phase.

There are two propulsive phases of the arm in an effective
freestyle – the pull (from when the hand begins moving backwards until it
passes below the shoulders) and the push (from when the hand passes below the
shoulders until it stops moving backward).

Most swimmers don’t take full advantage of the push. As soon
as the arm passes below the shoulder, it is very natural to let the elbow move
upward in synch with the torso rotation. This is natural, but ineffective. An
example is posted on the STR website that shows a typical failure to increase
hand force on the push - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/aquanex/aquanex-examples-freestyle/ The swimmer’s elbow rapidly moves upward making the hand
move up more than back. Failure to increase force on the push is one of the
most common limiting factors.

STR has conducted thousands of Aquanex+Video trials that
capture underwater video and hand force data. Our ongoing research shows that
swimmers can double hand force from the pull to the push. For example, one
Olympian went from 35 lbs on the pull to almost 80 lbs on his push. More detail
is included in an article in USA Swimming’s Coaches Quarterly - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/technique-characteristics-of-olympic-sprinters/ Since hand force is directly related to swimming velocity,
it is essential that swimmers take full advantage of the push.

Chapter four of “Approaching Perfect Freestyle” explains the
four critical checkpoints within a stroke cycle. It can be downloaded for free
- http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/approaching-perfect-freestyle/sample-the-freestyle-e-book/ Chapter five explains the phases (including the push).

Rod Havriluk, Ph.D.

Swimming Technology Research

Something odd is going on here with the posts.  Just trying to say:  Thank you for the post and references.  Very interesting.



Edited by Experior 2012-04-30 8:45 PM
2012-05-09 10:20 AM
in reply to: #4177426


14

Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Glad you appreciate the links!

Since the title of this thread also includes catch and pull, you might be interested in this recent article on Medical Concerns.

2012-05-09 11:25 AM
in reply to: #4179328

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
Rod Havriluk - 2012-04-29 12:17 PM

It’s always nice to get an opportunity to dialog about the
info posted on our swimmingtechnology.com website. In this post, I’d like to
address the importance of the push phase.

There are two propulsive phases of the arm in an effective
freestyle – the pull (from when the hand begins moving backwards until it
passes below the shoulders) and the push (from when the hand passes below the
shoulders until it stops moving backward).

Most swimmers don’t take full advantage of the push. As soon
as the arm passes below the shoulder, it is very natural to let the elbow move
upward in synch with the torso rotation. This is natural, but ineffective. An
example is posted on the STR website that shows a typical failure to increase
hand force on the push - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/aquanex/aquanex-examples-freestyle/ The swimmer’s elbow rapidly moves upward making the hand
move up more than back. Failure to increase force on the push is one of the
most common limiting factors.

STR has conducted thousands of Aquanex+Video trials that
capture underwater video and hand force data. Our ongoing research shows that
swimmers can double hand force from the pull to the push. For example, one
Olympian went from 35 lbs on the pull to almost 80 lbs on his push. More detail
is included in an article in USA Swimming’s Coaches Quarterly - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/technique-characteristics-of-olympic-sprinters/ Since hand force is directly related to swimming velocity,
it is essential that swimmers take full advantage of the push.

Chapter four of “Approaching Perfect Freestyle” explains the
four critical checkpoints within a stroke cycle. It can be downloaded for free
- http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/approaching-perfect-freestyle/sample-the-freestyle-e-book/ Chapter five explains the phases (including the push).

Rod Havriluk, Ph.D.

Swimming Technology Research



 

 

Thanks very much for joining in the discussion.  My Master's coach has been repeatedly telling us to emphasize the push phase, but after reading your Ch 4 and looking at the examples on your site, I think I'm guilty of letting my elbow come to the surface prematurely and so losing force.  I'll focus on this in practice today...

Can I hijak the thread and ask a question?  What's your opinion on keeping the core a bit tight while swimming?  I feel faster when I do it, presumably because I keep a better streamline in the water when applying force via the pull/push.  But its tiring to keep the core engaged.  Any thoughts?

 

2012-05-09 1:47 PM
in reply to: #4177426


14

Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Regarding your work on the push phase - it can be very
helpful to wear hand paddles. Paddles exaggerate feedback about both the
magnitude and direction of force.

Recent research by Tim Henrichs directly addresses your
question about the core. Check the FAQ - “Are strokes ‘driven’ by the shoulders,
core, hips, torso, or body?” 

2012-05-13 1:11 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Bedford, NH, USA
Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
While down in Tallahassee for business, I stayed an extra day for Rod Havriluk's STR Clinic for Swimmers & Triathletes. We had people from several states, young and old, for the classroom, pool lessons, video/force analysis and individual performance review. I think it was very informative to see a video of my swim as well as the hand force analysis, both synchonized in time. Where my pull was off, my force was also down. I was stressing muscles but not getting forward propulsive force. Spinning my wheels, as it were. Rather than a "trust me" reputation bulit on a winning swim career, Havriluk points to the science and his publications on analysis of technique and results. If not a champion himself, he has and continues to coach champions. Like he says, the fastest are fast but might still do things wrong. Doing the same things wrong make the rest of us less fast than we might otherwise be, and more prone to injury as well. Give his website a read, pick up his e-Book on Freestyle, and consider taking one of his clinics. I'll be working on what I learned and coming back to check my gains. And dang - my pull sucks but my push ain't too bad. Part-way there!


2012-05-25 5:45 PM
in reply to: #4177426


14

Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Mav, thanks for the endorsement of my swimming! Seriously,
it’s nice to know that the message got through: optimal swimming technique
results from the application of science and not anecdotal info about champions.
(e.g. http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/talent-identification/stir/)

By the way, your evaluation of yourself is a little harsh – you had a really
impressive clinic and are already benefitting.  

2012-05-25 6:56 PM
in reply to: #4200227

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Fantastic information.  Thank you for contributing!!

2012-05-26 2:55 PM
in reply to: #4179328

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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push

Rod Havriluk - 2012-04-29 1:17 PM

There are two propulsive phases of the arm in an effective freestyle – the pull (from when the hand begins moving backwards until it passes below the shoulders) and the push (from when the hand passes below the shoulders until it stops moving backward).

Most swimmers don’t take full advantage of the push. As soon
as the arm passes below the shoulder, it is very natural to let the elbow move
upward in synch with the torso rotation. This is natural, but ineffective....Failure to increase force on the push is one of the most common limiting factors.

STR has conducted thousands of Aquanex+Video trials that
capture underwater video and hand force data. Our ongoing research shows that
swimmers can double hand force from the pull to the push. Since hand force is directly related to swimming velocity, it is essential that swimmers take full advantage of the push.

 

AdventureBear

Many people think the push phase is the part past the waist, "finish at the thigh" for example. That part of the stroke doesn't do much. But the part between the catch and the finish is significant. There are good ways to do it and a lot of not good ways to do it. Some of it involves pushing...but if you puhs too hard or with the wrong muscle group you risk creating increased drag from funny body dynmaics & rotations. The swim tech guy actually mentions something along these lines.

Curious. Glad you're both chiming in here, as I cannot see how to reconcile this one. There's potential for some real nice discussion here...

Camp AB says don't "finish at the thigh" because it's diminishing returns. Camp RH says push all the way til your hand touches your thigh (checkpoint #1 and #3 using the STR vernacular). Essentially a front quadrant only vs. front+back quadrants. So, one of you appears to be wrong. If not, how do we reconcile these apparent differences?

Having perused the STR website, I am swayed by the actual data. But I'm not an expert in the field, so I don't know that literature well enough to be able to say what's a good/bad measurement or method. And you're citing much only your literature (sorry, this is always a red flag to me) -- surely other coaches/researchers are doing semi-useful work in this area to corroborate your approach (i.e. MONA)? Point us in that direction?

I'll start there. Thanks in advance! -J

2012-05-26 6:04 PM
in reply to: #4177426

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push
I'm fine being wrong if you must create a black and white discussion. I read both quotes above and to me they sound congruent. We're talking angles of extension at the elbow of just a few degrees.

But what happens is people get stuck at the thigh, or throw water up, or push their hips down. Anything that destroys balance or streamline, pushin water in another direction besides straight back, is detrimental.

Likewise, pushing so that the rear arm spends much time "back there" slows stroke rate and can be counter productive. When doing a full follow through I have a sensation at the end of my stroke like dribbling a basketball...the elbow doesn't lock out and the path of force is directly toward the feet. The final snap of the wrist sheds water off the fingertips while the hand is still in the water which then releases without directing forces any new directions.

Skilled swimmers really in tune with their body can " finish the stroke"
- without throwing water
- without getting stuck in the rear
- without distorting the rest of the body's streamline.

If you can't do those things you are better off releasing earlier.

Also your misinterpreting my words if you think I'm suggesting propulsion only happens in the front quadrant. very little happens there. In fact, from first movement to the end of the catch you are actually slowing down.

Carry on.

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-05-26 6:13 PM
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