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Swim Catch, Pull &Push (Page 2)
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 2012-05-26 10:56 PM in reply to: #4230669 |
Veteran  186  |  Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &PushAdventureBear - 2012-05-26 7:04 PM I'm fine being wrong if you must create a black and white discussion. I read both quotes above and to me they sound congruent. We're talking angles of extension at the elbow of just a few degrees. But what happens is people get stuck at the thigh, or throw water up, or push their hips down. Anything that destroys balance or streamline, pushin water in another direction besides straight back, is detrimental. Likewise, pushing so that the rear arm spends much time "back there" slows stroke rate and can be counter productive. When doing a full follow through I have a sensation at the end of my stroke like dribbling a basketball...the elbow doesn't lock out and the path of force is directly toward the feet. The final snap of the wrist sheds water off the fingertips while the hand is still in the water which then releases without directing forces any new directions. Skilled swimmers really in tune with their body can " finish the stroke" - without throwing water - without getting stuck in the rear - without distorting the rest of the body's streamline. If you can't do those things you are better off releasing earlier. Also your misinterpreting my words if you think I'm suggesting propulsion only happens in the front quadrant. very little happens there. In fact, from first movement to the end of the catch you are actually slowing down. Carry on. Thank you Suzanne! No, I'm not a black/white guy -- really trying to see the shades of gray. After your answer here plus rereading your first posts on this, I think I see your perspective and Dr. Havriluk's coming together more. So you see stroke "shortening" as a tradeoff individuals make to optimize overall speed vs. effort? (hopefully I'm reading you right this time) And I never knew you slow down during the catch until today. Thanks for that little nugget too! -J |
| 2012-05-27 9:05 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
Coach 9167   Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push The human body is full of compromises when swimming. At every stage of a swimmers development and improvement there are going to be different things that rise to the top as most important. I don't think I'd use the word shortening either...just releasing. If the stroke is released at the right time it's neither long nor short. What's optimal for one swimmer may be learning not to let the elbow come behind the back during recovery...and teaching to finish at the thigh may conceptually not allow that swimmer to correct the balance problems being created. However when they learn and feel how much improved power is obtained just from optimally controlling right to left balance they get an efficiency boost. Then you can teach them to stroke longer from shoulder to wherever to get more forward propulsion. Balance always supersedes propulsion or streamlining. However my swim philosophy revolves around the entire body lengthening to reduce drag while the other stuff is going on. With human bodies in he water, you'll never be able to create enough power to overcome body drag efficiently. We seek to optimize this ratio. As a swimmer develops a true feel for how to move through water with subtle technique, angles and pressure control, they discover for themselves what is optimal. I'd say 90% of triathletes have not reached this point based on my clubs OWS and the folks that come to masters. That doesn't mean they are not fast. But when success is measured by speed alone without taking mechanics into account, stroke development is limited. |
| 2012-05-29 1:16 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push I would love to see Rod's response to this question as well, so bump... calling Rod... |
| 2012-05-29 4:01 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Karlaj, Since you asked about additional literature - there is considerable research that supports an increase in force throughout the stroke. For example, in the 1980s, Bob Schleihauf Two examples of the freestyle push phase are shown here -http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/aquanex/aquanex-examples-push-phase/ The first example shows a swimmer with her hand already A swimmer must learn to completely extend at the elbow with I’d also like to offer some info on the pull, but I’ll save Rod |
| 2012-05-29 8:02 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Rod, Jane Caeppart has done some research showing that faster swimmers ( I believe finalists in the Barecelona 100m Freestyle) actually generated less force than those who did not make the finals. This was shocking since the 100m freestyle would be assumed to be the most power hungry of all the events. Her conclusions were that maximizing force...is not the biggest indicator of speed, but rather, maximizing active streamlining. Are you familiar with this research done while she worked with USA Swimmign? |
| 2012-05-29 8:19 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
Expert 836 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Very nice Rod. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated. |
| 2012-05-30 5:20 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push AdventureBear, Thanks for giving me the opportunity to present a more According to the drag equation, swimming velocity is When you examine force and velocity over a larger range of http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/ http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/strength-vs-technique/ Rod |
| 2012-05-30 10:43 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Thanks for the additional information Rod. What's been your experience with the general triathlon population that come to your clinics? In the latter study you linked, it seems that the "slowest" swimmers were still swimming at a velocity of about 1.2 m/s for women, and I recall bout 1.4m/s for men.. That's significantly faster than the average triathlete. Considering that one of the statements in your conclusion is the the swimmers need to be focused on "optimally directing the force"...do you find for most triathletes who come to your clinics that minimizing CdA takes greater priority or learning to optimally direct current forces? (obviously directly current forces will always be a priority) Perhaps I should ask if generating MORE force vs. Minimzing CdA in swimmers who are significantly slower than the swimmers in the studies mentioned. Or even (god forbid) decreasing current force in order to optimize CdA? There was another interesting study which I can't locate at the moment, that paired swimmers & triathletes of similar current training hours. The conclusion was that for athletes swimming the same speed, triathletes generated more power than the swimmers did. (Swimmers generated less power to swim the same speed as triathletes). I think both that paper and the Caeppert studies use the force plates, I don't recall the name of the system...whereas your system (is it yours?) uses force sensors on the hand. OK, one more question (I know I'm off topic now). While I am not a big believer in the contribution of "lift" forces to forward velocity based on some CFD papers I've seen, many of the sideways hand movements showing a drop off in your force measurements likely are there on purpose due to instruction by coaches to actively scull during the stroke, believe that lift is a significant contributor to forward mvoement. (Even if they don't understand the physics or non-physics of it, they still teach it). Since lift force involves a differential in force, and not only the force on the lower surface, I was curious of your sensors measure force on both sides of the hand to measure differential? Sorry for the run-on of questions. I tend to ask a lot of them.  Edited by AdventureBear 2012-05-30 10:45 PM |
| 2012-06-01 12:36 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push AB, To address your question about how we prioritize instruction for resistance and propulsion in STR clinics - we address resistance issues on the push-off streamline so we can quickly move onto propulsion. Swimmers are then asked to maintain focus on the cues that reduce resistance as the propulsion cues are added. This greatly accelerates the learning process. The difference in our approach to faster and slower swimmers is that a higher degree of proficiency for each skill is addressed with faster swimmers. Aquanex+Video (yes, it is an STR product) has sensors that fit on the hand to measure the pressure differential. And, you are absolutely right; in many cases, swimmers have excess or rapid lateral motion that produces a significant force loss. For example, the swimmer in the first image on this link suddenly flexes his elbow and loses 15 lbs of force in .1 sec - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/propulsion-research/ Numerous studies confirm that a relatively modest hand path angle produces the highest force. A swimmer will generate the most force by tracing a path that keeps the hand between the side of the body and the midline of the body during the pull and push phases. Note the hand position for the underwater checkpoints - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/approaching-perfect-freestyle/sample-the-freestyle-e-book/ Rod |
| 2012-07-07 2:05 PM in reply to: #4207292 |
Member 35 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push MaverickNH - 2012-05-13 1:11 PM While down in Tallahassee for business, I stayed an extra day for Rod Havriluk's STR Clinic for Swimmers & Triathletes. We had people from several states, young and old, for the classroom, pool lessons, video/force analysis and individual performance review. I think it was very informative to see a video of my swim as well as the hand force analysis, both synchonized in time. Where my pull was off, my force was also down. I was stressing muscles but not getting forward propulsive force. Spinning my wheels, as it were. Rather than a "trust me" reputation bulit on a winning swim career, Havriluk points to the science and his publications on analysis of technique and results. If not a champion himself, he has and continues to coach champions. Like he says, the fastest are fast but might still do things wrong. Doing the same things wrong make the rest of us less fast than we might otherwise be, and more prone to injury as well. Give his website a read, pick up his e-Book on Freestyle, and consider taking one of his clinics. I'll be working on what I learned and coming back to check my gains. And dang - my pull sucks but my push ain't too bad. Part-way there!
How much did the clinic cost? |
| 2012-07-09 4:27 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push The clinic included pool and classroom sessions for both instruction (featuring MONA) and analysis (with Aquanex+Video). The fee was $119. (The fee for STR clinics depends on location, format, and number of participants.) STR clinics emphasize reducing the risk of injury, as well as improving performance. (Learn about a much more effective option to catch-up stroke in a recently published article – http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/research/arm-synchronization/) |
| 2012-07-09 5:10 PM in reply to: #4177426 |
| Member 212 Bedford, NH, USA | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Well worth the cost for the clinic. I knocked 3min off my 1 mile time during this last weekend's triathlon swim, just by focus on hand entry, arm position on pull and keeping power through the push phase to the thigh. Head position is still variable, as is recovery, but that can only give me a better stroke when get them consistant. The 6 min I knocked off the bike, well, I'll take credit for that myself :-) |
| 2012-07-10 9:38 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
Veteran 1384 Panama City, FL | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push i imporoved when i started doing this. Like in a golf swing, I could not "feel" what i was doing, but a swim coaches' eyes could tell instantly- i was not finishing my stroke. Now I do. More efficient. Also putting more "work" on lats instead of shoulders. |
| 2012-07-10 10:24 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
| Mojave Desert | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push I just wanted to thank everyone for the wealth of knowledge in this thread. As a novice triathlete and life-long "B group" swimmer, I have learned a great deal by simply reading this thread. I am currently dealing with shoulder issues. I have an appointment to check on bone spurs as I have had them on other joints and my relatives have had them in their shoulders. While this may be the source of my constant pain, I believe my entry is contributing as well. In my 35 years of swimming (about 20 of it under direction of coaches), I don't recall ever being told to not reach out front as far as I can. My entry is very flat and I assume this is putting undo stress on my shoulder. Again, thank you for posting the advice and links. While I still have lots of reading to do, it has inspired me to also concentrate on technique as opposed to only working on strength. |
| 2012-07-10 10:43 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
Veteran 130 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push This thread is TERRIFIC! One quick question thou as I seem to have gotten 2 different pieces of advice/info that I want to clear up.. when speaking specifically of my hand position at the point my pull switches to push phase..Where are my finger tips pointing at this moment? Straight down to the bottom of pool/lake? Or, are they pointed more in at an angle toward my torso? I know my elbow should be at 90 degrees but am I pulling/pushing directly next to my torso the whole sequecnce or do I go under my body bit? |
| 2012-07-10 4:13 PM in reply to: #4303355 |
Veteran 1384 Panama City, FL | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push My entry is near or just in front of my head vs. way out reaching above the water and then entering water. I'm still working on engaging my lats vs. my shoulders. I don't want the shoulder trouble over time either. Good luck!
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| 2012-07-11 8:23 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push Glad you’re all finding the info valuable. ZippGirl – Great question! An effective hand path results from maintaining the hand within the width of the body. (This is upported by research from at least six different groups.) When the arm passes below the shoulder (making the transition from pull to push), the hand passes beneath the head with a 90 degree angle at the elbow and the fingertips pointing diagonally (more towards the side wall than the bottom). See checkpoint #4 in this ebook - http://www.swimmingtechnology.com/index.php/approaching-perfect-freestyle/sample-the-freestyle-e-book/ This not only maximizes force during the pull, but also effectively positions the arm for the push. Although you can find recommendations to point the fingertips toward the bottom with the forearm vertical, this position is ineffective for two main reasons. First, hand force is generated at a considerable distance from the body midline causing the body to wiggle. Second, from this |
| 2012-07-11 11:10 AM in reply to: #4177426 |
Veteran 130 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push WOOOOOOWWWWWW!!! I kid you not... I followed the check points (1-4) and advice I've been reading over the past couple days and incorporated it into my master class last night....I TOOK 1:31 (yes, ONE MINUTE, 31 secondS) off my 450 splits at master swim last night!! WOW! WOW! WOW! I'm so excited! It was a riot at class too... the guy in the lane next to me thought I missed a hundred but I hadn't (confirmed by my coach) and beat the guy in questions time Btw, the single most beneficial little nugget (beside everything combined of course) was the visual/feeling of pushing myself UP out of the pool (while switching from pull to push phase) - LOVE THAT, I can totally feel it and it WORKS!!! Also switched my hand position a pit (to face a bit into my body at push to pull phase and kept my elbows more at 90 (in recovery phase)... I'm still learning/tweaking but wow are you helping... I'm a late bloomer. Could always swim but was never on a team and/or raced... Wish I had but better late, than never right? That being said, I have tons of room for more improvement... Btw, My pool (25 yard) 450 split went from 9:03 to 7:33... And that was after a good 2000 yards of drilling or so... |
| 2012-08-23 9:49 AM in reply to: #4305793 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: Swim Catch, Pull &Push I appreciate the feedback about Approaching Perfect Freestyle. We've received such a positive response that we've made chapters 1-6 available online for free - Rod Havriluk Swimming Technology Research
Edited by Rod Havriluk 2012-08-23 9:50 AM |
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