General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion... Rss Feed  
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2013-10-15 7:14 PM
in reply to: the5krunner

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
This is probably a stupid question, but what pacing problem? I've been using a 910 nearly a year, and it's been flawless.


2013-10-16 2:34 AM
in reply to: michael_runs

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
ahm, what's the pace problem?

anyway, seems like a good routine, I always forget to switch mode and end up riding my run.
2013-10-16 8:32 AM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
I believe the problem was with the current pace. It would bounce around all the time. It would show 10:00mm and then drop to 8:30mm and back up to 11:43 without you changing the speed. I never look at current. I only see lap avg and overall avg.
2013-10-16 8:44 AM
in reply to: MonkeyClaw

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
How would a wrist mounted GPS unit get instant pace when your wrist is moving quite fast relative to your body as you swing your arm.

One instant your wrist is moving at body speed + forward arm swing speed = very fast
0.5 seconds later your wrist is moving at body speed + back arm swing speed = very slow.

Some averaging is needed (min 3-5sec.) for the reading to have any meaning.
2013-10-16 12:56 PM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by GAUG3

I believe the problem was with the current pace. It would bounce around all the time. It would show 10:00mm and then drop to 8:30mm and back up to 11:43 without you changing the speed. I never look at current. I only see lap avg and overall avg.


OK, I always use current pace/speed, lap or overall average will bounce in the beginning, but then settle so you fail to notice when your pace is slipping by the end of the course...

Anyway, there's a firmware 3.0 out, and I can't get it to download, anyone having trouble with this firmware?
2013-10-16 12:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

Originally posted by GAUG3 I believe the problem was with the current pace. It would bounce around all the time. It would show 10:00mm and then drop to 8:30mm and back up to 11:43 without you changing the speed. I never look at current. I only see lap avg and overall avg.

Ah!  I see.

The only time I've ever seen mine do that is if I start moving shortly after the device indicates "satellites found" rather than waiting for it to connect to additional satellites to improve the accuracy.

Once it says it's connected to satellites, check the accuracy through the menu button to make sure it's not still 50' or 60'.  Instead, wait for it to indicate accuracy is less than 20' before starting.  IME, doing this provides very stable instant pace readings.

Has anyone else experienced the same thing, or have you seen unstable readings despite a good accuracy number?

ETA:  BTW, I'm still using firmware version 2.60 which came installed.  I've never upgraded, and have never experienced any of the issues reported by others, except for instances where I could identify user error on my part.

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2013-10-16 1:02 PM


2013-10-16 1:05 PM
in reply to: michael_runs

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

I also work in the software industry, and the explanation makes perfect sense.  There are often multiple different codepaths that each may need to do a few things differently.  I can imagine out-of-box startup, mode switch, soft reset startup, power-on-from-hibernate (a version of warm start), and so on.  Their explanation is that power-on-from-hibernate fails to init something correctly and mode switch does. 

BTW, I used to use instant pace on my 310 a lot but yes it wobbles like crazy on the 910xt.  To compensate for this, what I did was set the Garmin to auto-lap every .2 miles (1/5 mile).  What this does is cause the watch to vibrate every 1/5th mile and then I look at the watch, and see the average pace for that lap.  If I'm  targeting 10 minute miles, then that's 2:00.  For 9 minute miles, 1:48 per 1/5th mile. 

This has worked out really well for me.  I no longer have this constant OCD-ish glance at my watch.  Instead I just run along, it vibrates, I look, I see the pace, and I either speed up a bit if I'm lagging behind my target or slow down if I'm getting a bit fast.  If I stop for a water break, then the lap may say "2:10" instead of "1:48", and that means I gave away 22 seconds off my pace for that water stop.  This is so much more useful info than the having auto-lap set to every full mile.

I ran a full marathon with this setting as well as a HIM run, and I was very pleased with this setup.  I'll keep using it even after the average pace is fixed.

2013-10-16 1:38 PM
in reply to: the5krunner

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
If you have "auto-lap" set to one mile and one of your data fields is "average lap pace", then you probably should have looked down before that point.
If I am trying to hit mile repeats with quarter mile recovery, I hit the lap when I start the mile, then head out at a pace that seems right. At about 50m out, I check my average, and adjust accordingly. Check that number and adjust pace several times per lap if needed.

With the foot pod, I get a pretty good lock on instant pace (after leveling out my speed) after 5-10 steps. That is perfectly fine.

Above all else: make sure you use "EVERY SECOND RECORDING".
2013-10-16 1:41 PM
in reply to: brucemorgan

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

Originally posted by brucemorgan

I also work in the software industry, and the explanation makes perfect sense.  There are often multiple different codepaths that each may need to do a few things differently.  I can imagine out-of-box startup, mode switch, soft reset startup, power-on-from-hibernate (a version of warm start), and so on.  Their explanation is that power-on-from-hibernate fails to init something correctly and mode switch does. 

BTW, I used to use instant pace on my 310 a lot but yes it wobbles like crazy on the 910xt.  To compensate for this, what I did was set the Garmin to auto-lap every .2 miles (1/5 mile).  What this does is cause the watch to vibrate every 1/5th mile and then I look at the watch, and see the average pace for that lap.  If I'm  targeting 10 minute miles, then that's 2:00.  For 9 minute miles, 1:48 per 1/5th mile. 

This has worked out really well for me.  I no longer have this constant OCD-ish glance at my watch.  Instead I just run along, it vibrates, I look, I see the pace, and I either speed up a bit if I'm lagging behind my target or slow down if I'm getting a bit fast.  If I stop for a water break, then the lap may say "2:10" instead of "1:48", and that means I gave away 22 seconds off my pace for that water stop.  This is so much more useful info than the having auto-lap set to every full mile.

I ran a full marathon with this setting as well as a HIM run, and I was very pleased with this setup.  I'll keep using it even after the average pace is fixed.

This is a really good idea.  I just tried it on my 210 and while I can only go down to 0.25, it works like a charm.

2013-10-17 7:52 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by dfroelich

If you have "auto-lap" set to one mile and one of your data fields is "average lap pace", then you probably should have looked down before that point.
If I am trying to hit mile repeats with quarter mile recovery, I hit the lap when I start the mile, then head out at a pace that seems right. At about 50m out, I check my average, and adjust accordingly. Check that number and adjust pace several times per lap if needed.

With the foot pod, I get a pretty good lock on instant pace (after leveling out my speed) after 5-10 steps. That is perfectly fine.

Above all else: make sure you use "EVERY SECOND RECORDING".


With the pod, do you turn GPS off? I thought GPS overides the pod leaving it just with the cadence.
2013-10-17 10:50 AM
in reply to: mgalanter

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by mgalanter

How would a wrist mounted GPS unit get instant pace when your wrist is moving quite fast relative to your body as you swing your arm.

One instant your wrist is moving at body speed + forward arm swing speed = very fast
0.5 seconds later your wrist is moving at body speed + back arm swing speed = very slow.

Some averaging is needed (min 3-5sec.) for the reading to have any meaning.


Nobody's discussing the merits of "instant" or "current" pace. The discussion is that the flagship product, the 910xt, had an inferior implementation of "instant/current" pace than the older Forerunner 305. People were upset when the more expensive flagship product came out and it was inferior in these respects to the older cheaper 305. We just wanted parity since so many people found this a useful metric to run with on the 305.

The 305 gave you the option to select a smoothing value for instant/current pace where the 910xt does not give you that option. I suspect that the 910xt does not use any smoothing hence the massive jumps in pace second to second.


2013-10-17 12:08 PM
in reply to: mgalanter

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by mgalanter

How would a wrist mounted GPS unit get instant pace when your wrist is moving quite fast relative to your body as you swing your arm.

One instant your wrist is moving at body speed + forward arm swing speed = very fast
0.5 seconds later your wrist is moving at body speed + back arm swing speed = very slow.

Some averaging is needed (min 3-5sec.) for the reading to have any meaning.


I don't think I saw an answer to this question. Although I don't know how Garmin would do it, here is the most probable engineering answer. Instant pace is likely the pace calculated over the last interval (say 3 seconds), and may even be averaged over several of these intervals, versus averaged pace which could be the average of many 'instant' paces.

Although your wrist moves relative to your body a few inches with every step, over 3 seconds of running two readings (which is the minimum required to establish pace or speed) are actually fairly far apart. The real question is how accurate is the GPS reading for those two points and is it within the circle of uncertainty. Back in the early years of GPS the military would not allow commercial receivers to have accuracy to even many meters, but that's long since been relaxed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that GPS is accurate to within a few feet if not better (but I haven't checked the latest spec). Certainly the watch and the satellites are capable of this - its just a matter of what is allowed.

Assuming its gotten pretty good, and I anecdotally feel it has based on my observations, then an instant reading would at best be the speed between two points. That distance is usually far larger than the few inches your wrist moves as you swing it back and forth, and thus its 'contribution' to positional error is minor.
2013-10-18 7:48 AM
in reply to: the5krunner

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

Do they also mention you have to dance around naked outside while wearing the watch on your left ankle for 15 minutes before using it?  That seems like an unlikely fix, but yet for some reason I will try it

2013-10-18 11:53 AM
in reply to: GAUG3

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Perhaps I am just imagining it but, the pace seems to lock in quicker with the pod than without. I always assumed that it was similar to using the speed/cadence sensor on the bike...that it uses the wheel magnet for instant pace, but GPS for everything else.

I could be totally wrong, and wish I had another 910 that I could wear simultaneously and test it out. (Ideally, I'd have 4 to also test the combos of "Smart recording" vs "every second")

Every Second recording certainly makes a difference.
An extreme example, I have a 5 hour run using "smart recording". It recorded about 3500 data points. Every second recording would have about 18,000. That means in order to get the same number of data points to calculate instant pace, you would need ~5X more time to lock in. If it instead uses a specific time averaging instead of number of points averaging, it will have 1/5 as many data points to average...yielding an inaccurate average.
2013-10-27 10:58 AM
in reply to: dfroelich

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by dfroelich

Perhaps I am just imagining it but, the pace seems to lock in quicker with the pod than without. I always assumed that it was similar to using the speed/cadence sensor on the bike...that it uses the wheel magnet for instant pace, but GPS for everything else.

I could be totally wrong, and wish I had another 910 that I could wear simultaneously and test it out. (Ideally, I'd have 4 to also test the combos of "Smart recording" vs "every second")

Every Second recording certainly makes a difference.
An extreme example, I have a 5 hour run using "smart recording". It recorded about 3500 data points. Every second recording would have about 18,000. That means in order to get the same number of data points to calculate instant pace, you would need ~5X more time to lock in. If it instead uses a specific time averaging instead of number of points averaging, it will have 1/5 as many data points to average...yielding an inaccurate average.


EDIT: Sorry to dig up a dead post, but I just found something. There is an option in the footpod settings to switch Speed input from GPS to footpod...so yes, it should help a lot of have the footpod. BTW, the default setting is GPS.
2014-04-24 7:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

1. There IS a bug with INSTANT RUN PACE. It is NOT accurate
2. Version 3 of firmware does not fix the problem
3. Using a footpod as the source of pace fixes the problem providing your footpod is correctly calibrated.
4. When using a footpod CURRENT/INSTANT pace comes from the footpod and lap pace comes from GPS (if available)

now you know.

Edited by the5krunner 2014-04-24 7:55 AM


2014-04-24 8:31 AM
in reply to: the5krunner

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Originally posted by the5krunner


1. There IS a bug with INSTANT RUN PACE. It is NOT accurate
2. Version 3 of firmware does not fix the problem
3. Using a footpod as the source of pace fixes the problem providing your footpod is correctly calibrated.
4. When using a footpod CURRENT/INSTANT pace comes from the footpod and lap pace comes from GPS (if available)

now you know.


So if I change nothing, if my 910xt is picking up my cadence (footpod working), then instant pace is from the footpod even if GPS is active ?
2014-04-24 9:05 AM
in reply to: michael_runs

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
When I want to know how fast I'm running I look down at my 305! It gives me my pace with no problems Maybe Garmin should go find the guys who designed the 305 for them and have them fix the 910.
2014-04-24 10:00 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...

Originally posted by mike761 When I want to know how fast I'm running I look down at my 305! It gives me my pace with no problems Maybe Garmin should go find the guys who designed the 305 for them and have them fix the 910.

I also use the FR305 and rely on instant pacing all the time.  Not sure I would ever upgrade to the 910 if this is an ongoing bug.

2014-04-24 1:42 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Garmin "thinks" they've figured out the 910xt pace problem and they have a suggestion...
Settings - Run settings - Foot Pod - Speed source - Foot Pod
Then, calibrate it on a track. Easy.
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