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2012-05-05 2:53 PM


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Subject: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon
Hey there, I'm seeking some advice on qualifying for Boston by the time I turn 40 in 2014. My PR for the half is about a 1:41. At a 7:47 pace, I'm still quite a bit away from the 7:26 I'd need for twice the distance.

I've been doing endurance sports for a decade or so, definitely a MOPer. Mostly triathlons -- I did IMLP last year at 13:40, and was tickled to do the run in 4:30. I've run 3 marathons, Chicago in '97 at 4:05, NYC in 2003 at 4:30 (injured ankle) and NYC in 2008 (poor training.)

This year, because time was limited, I thought I'd just run a marathon, and I tried the Furman Institute "Run Less, Run Faster" program to see if I could get faster. It was my first time I did actually speedwork, based on pace, than just aiming for higher fitness or doing heart rate training.

It helped, at least a little.  I knocked about 9 minutes off my 13.1 time, but I don't know what it'll do for my marathon time. It was a tough program. I kept getting injured. First several months of the year I had back strain from doing a lot of treadmill work -- I was craning my head down at the display all the time.

When it got warm, I started training outside. The back strain went away, but then I developed some peroneal tendinitis, probably from foolishly doing tempo and speed runs on a hilly, asphalt park trail.

I'm back now, but I took three weeks off from training, and have a marathon tomorrow. I'm not sure how I'll do -- my 1:41 half PR is from two weeks ago, but I haven't had a long run over 15 miles for about two months.  I expect somewhere between 3:30 and 4:00 barring no disasters.

After the marathon, I'll probably shift into a bike-heavy cycle. I have a friend training for IM Louisville, and he wants company on the long rides. I also have a bike-intense triathlon in September. This is probably for the best  -- speedwork is really hard in the summer heat, and summer's the best time for riding.

I'd really like to BQ though. The factors I have to deal with are:

(1) Time is still limited, so I've been averaging of about 7 hours a week for training. (1 hr speed, 1 hr tempo, 2 hrs long, plus 2 swims and 1 bike workout.) I might be able to get 10 hours in the summer.

(2) I have the will to train, but the body isn't cooperating so much. I'll do the work, but I pull back when my body hints at injury, like the back strain and peroneal tendinitis.

After the marathon, I'll have a week of rest for travel, and assess what my training plan will be for the summer. If anyone has any thoughts on what I can do, I'd be really grateful.

Among my ideas:

* More time in the weight room to boost strength to prevent injury
* Dropping more weight by reducing fat in the diet -- I'm about 5' 3", 140 now (although I like my build better when doing triathlons than when concentrating on running) At the height of IM training I was 9% fat, 138 lbs.
* Get some gait analysis
* Adding more rest weeks or spacing out the Run Less, Run Faster workouts.
* Building up mileage over the summer and trying a Pfitzinger plan for a race next spring.

I like the lower volume of the FIRST plan, and I like the kick of speedwork, but I hate that it requires a lot of time inside, watching your pace. I miss running long outside, going by heart rate. I'm not sure which would better insulate me from injury though.

What would you recommend for me to hit my BQ goal in two years, while hopefully not getting too injured, and keeping up with the triathlon?

Well, this is a long post. If you've made it this far -- thanks -- and let me know what you think!


2012-05-05 3:49 PM
in reply to: #4192372

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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon

A couple thoughts:

1. Get in touch with a coach that is comfortable with your goals.

2. If you fear injury / your body "isn't cooperating", maybe the low volume, high intensity FIRST plan isn't the best idea. It sounds like it has already caused some injury, and is likely to lead to more.

3. If you really want to BQ, but you can really only dedicate 7 hrs per week consistently, you might have to reduce or drop the bike and swim for a while. Triathlon will always be there after you BQ. 

2012-05-05 3:59 PM
in reply to: #4192372

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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon

Run less, Run fast = injuries.

Speed kills.  

Time to get with the real program.  Most Easy, sometimes hard, lots and lots of miles. build slowly.  I'd say that if you can work your way up to 60-75mpw- that's about what it takes.  Not too many people running 3 days a week and BQing.

I think pretty much anyone can get to BQ if they have the tenacity.  It's easier for some than others- but I'll bet that 85+ percent of the population, if given 5 years and a real drive and passion- can BQ.  

It took me 3 years.  Lot's of injuries along the way- mostly all my own fault.  But I'm learning.

I like most of your planned activities.  Especially the last one.  Yes-  Get Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning book.  And read up on anything Jack Daniels has written.  You've posted times, but we don't know your age, gender and BQ time goal.  Yes- slow down, go long.  Marathon training requires surprisingly little speed work.  

 

if DonSkiMan or Scout7 chime in here- read what they say very carefully.

2012-05-05 10:19 PM
in reply to: #4192472

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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon
morey000 - 2012-05-05 1:59 PM

Run less, Run fast = injuries.

Speed kills.  

Time to get with the real program.  Most Easy, sometimes hard, lots and lots of miles. build slowly.  I'd say that if you can work your way up to 60-75mpw- that's about what it takes.  Not too many people running 3 days a week and BQing.

But they do exist...I'm one example (actually, for my BQ training period, I admit I did get up to running 4 times a week, but never more than 51 mpw and I raced two tri's--an Oly and a long sprint--in the six weeks before my mary).

To the OP:  Your post shows a lot of self-awareness and sense of priorities and it shows you listen to your body.  Sounds like you have a good handle on what might work for you based on what maybe hasn't been working previously.

One big caveat to what advice you might get, given your desire to maintain cycling and swimming fitness:  Some of the frequent posters in threads like this don't do triathlons, only running events.  They aren't juggling the cross training you'd like to keep doing.  Be aware that even though cycling and swimming don't directly improve running speed, they do positively contribute to aerobic conditioning.  A lot of comments about necessary mileage for marathon training are based on dedicating your training regimen to running and don't account for that.  Will tri training limit your marathon performance?  Very likely...I'm sure it does mine.  Does it increase the possibility of injury when you get up to very long runs?  Yeah, also likely.  But there's no law of physics that says you can't BQ while maintaining some cross training.

Good luck.

2012-05-06 6:07 AM
in reply to: #4192472

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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon
morey000 - 2012-05-05 4:59 PM

Run less, Run fast = injuries.

Speed kills.  

Time to get with the real program.  Most Easy, sometimes hard, lots and lots of miles. build slowly.  I'd say that if you can work your way up to 60-75mpw- that's about what it takes.  Not too many people running 3 days a week and BQing.

I think pretty much anyone can get to BQ if they have the tenacity.  It's easier for some than others- but I'll bet that 85+ percent of the population, if given 5 years and a real drive and passion- can BQ.  

It took me 3 years.  Lot's of injuries along the way- mostly all my own fault.  But I'm learning.

I like most of your planned activities.  Especially the last one.  Yes-  Get Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathoning book.  And read up on anything Jack Daniels has written.  You've posted times, but we don't know your age, gender and BQ time goal.  Yes- slow down, go long.  Marathon training requires surprisingly little speed work.  

 

if DonSkiMan or Scout7 chime in here- read what they say very carefully.

The "run a lot, mostly easy, sometimes hard" mantra is the best way to go in my opinion.  I am in the 40-44 AG and I qualified for Boston last year at my third marathon.  I bit on the mantra and trained that way throughout tweo marathon training cycles.  My first marathon was 3:26:06 in 2010, narrowly missing the BQ but that wasn't my goal.  Last year I wanted to go for the BQ and ran a similar plan of higher mileage and low intensity.  It took 2 marathons 3 weeks apart but I made it.  My peak week training was 58 miles about 3 week out from my first try last year but I carried a fair amount of milage for a few months as a base leading up to these races.

It is really going to come down to what is more important to you.  If a BQ is more important then go forward with more running, more frequent with lower intensity.  I would argue that you aren't profoundly in touch with your body if you are frequently injured.  If you are frequent;y injured your not listening and trying to push through things that are causing problems.  Most of the time you can avoid injuries that will prevent taking time away from running by dropping volume or intensity and recovering properly.

2012-05-06 11:02 PM
in reply to: #4192372


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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Just finished my marathon today at 3:58. It was a flat course, but still pretty tough. It was way less than the 3:34 I'd been aiming for through the FIRST program, but still a PR. Legs weren't feeling 100% going in, and I was afraid of reinjuring myself, so I held back quite a bit in the beginning.

What I've learned so far:

I think the FIRST plan was useful in getting me to used to holding a certain pace. I was able to deal better with pain at the end of the race, because I was used to sitting at threshold on my speed workouts.

I was also in pretty good cardiovascular shape from the FIRST workouts and the cross-training. No real strain on that system from the race.

However: I think I do need more miles. Most of my pain from not being experienced enough with distance past 16 miles. My feet hurt, and some of the smaller muscles weren't used to the increased demand.

And thanks for articulating the dilemma here -- I think lots of people hit the nail on the head. I have to put more time in to running if I want to BQ. I can either lessen the triathlon -- or find more time.



2013-05-20 2:21 AM
in reply to: Acee

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Subject: RE: Help on BQ-ing in 2014 with triathlon
The first program is good, but there are lot of red flags in your description of how it went for you. Like others, I think that you probably need more easy miles to help condition your body for the demands of the running you want to do and prevent injury...but not because it's the only way to improve your time. You already said you set a PR in both half and full distances. What if you did that every time you cycled through the first program? you'd BQ sooner or later.

Logging the slower easier more frequent miles will make you a more resilient runner. And once you are a more resilient runner you'll be able to perform the faster interval work in the first program.

There are lots of ways to get from A to B and the problem with comparing yourself to others is that you don't knwo what they did to GET where they are now. I read the FIRST book awhile ago and I recall that many of their participants were already established runners that want to spend less training time and add more cross training is.

There's nothing that says you can't qualify running only 3 x per week. but if the first few weeks of that type of training causes injuries, you're not ready for it yet. I wouldn't persist with a plan that's causing injuries.
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