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2012-05-07 8:06 PM

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Subject: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

Let me preface my question by saying a couple things.  I realize there is more to a sub 6 hr HIm than the bike alone, but I believe that it is commonly agreed that a good bike split followed by keeping enough in the tank for a strong run is essential for a good day. I don't mean to devalue the swim but assuming you have good fitness and don;t come out of the water completely toasted as little as 10-15 min could seperate the FOP to BOP.

There fore, my question is for those sub 6 hr finishers how much bike volume either in hours or miles do you generally do in preparation for a HIM?  And how many years/months of steady riding gave you that presumably sub 3 hr bike split?  

some background: Yesterday I finished my second HIM(RR to follow) in about 18 months of tri specific training.   Compared to my first (last october) I saved 5 minutes on my swim, 13-20 min on the bike (depending on either my garmin or the raceclock which included a 100 yd jog from transistion there and back), and 5 min on the run.....1st HIM 6:39 with quad cramping and some stops on the run to 6:15 with no cramping and constant running. 

My concern is that my stand alone HM in training (unrested)is 1:53 and I am running my HIM half mary around 2:15 which from reading posts on this board too slow compared to my stand alone time.  Therefore, my assumption (please tell me if I am wrong) is that either I am pushing the bike too hard (which is hard to imagine with a 3:03-3:10 split) or just not there yet with conditioning or both.....so maybe I am too hard on myself because I am improving but not at the level of a sub 6 HIM / sub 3 hr bike split yet.

My training: As I mentioned above I have been tri training for about 18 months, was a runner before that.  I completed a few sprints an oly and HIM last year, did jorges plan pretty closely this winter and followed the HIM plan on this board with increased bike volume.  What does that mean? I did about 3 2:30 min rides about 3 3 hr rides and 2 2:30-3 hr trainer rides from jan-late april with other trainer rides etc.....I would swim about 2-3 days a week around 5000-7500yds a week (mainly structured sets and some long swims),...run volume about 30 miles per week with several 13-15 mile long runs.

I hope this is enough info, but that is why I am asking the question about what you do in regards to bike volume?  Should I do more 3+ hr rides?

so even though I had a decent race (for me) yesterday and met some goals, I felt the sub 6hr goal was within reach, and I want to work harder for it next time.

 

thanks for any advice



2012-05-07 8:12 PM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

2 questions:

1 - On your long rides, are you maintaining a mid to high Z2 or just cruising around getting in saddle time?

2 - On you shorter rides, are you doing any interval training?

2012-05-07 8:24 PM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

Bike splits vary a great deal depending on course difficulty -- do you know roughly how much climbing there was on this course? Also, do you have a sense of whether your wattage is in line with expected pace for a decent aero position? 

I have improved my bike race times since learning that my speeds were low relative to my w/kg, which was an indicator that my position was poor.

2012-05-07 8:31 PM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

Not terribly below 6, or even 3 on the bike (2:55), but for Oceanside which is moderately difficult I rode about 230-250 miles per month Nov- Dec, and about 375 miles per month Jan - march, so definitely not a ton.  Did a lot of that on the CT with intervals, only did about 5 long rides (as in over 4 hours)

I have to say I paced the entire bike by feel and the mantra to save it for the run, came off the bike feeling as if I hadn't done anything up to that point, and ready to run.  Ran about 6 minutes slower than my best open HM

You can check my logs, I was up to nearly 5K a year back in 2008, then got sick and dialed it way back, 2009 through 2011 I was 1500-2500 a year. 

2012-05-07 8:33 PM
in reply to: #4196109

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
bhctri - 2012-05-07 9:12 PM

2 questions:

1 - On your long rides, are you maintaining a mid to high Z2 or just cruising around getting in saddle time?   yes I do try to stay in high zone 2 as loong as possible,,,usually it could get impeded by traffice stops but working harder that before last HIM

2 - On you shorter rides, are you doing any interval training?  Other than trying to stay in Z2, no, typically my interval training has been done primarily on the trainer,  so maybe I need to do more of this...how long should the intervals be? like a trainer workout?

Re: colinphilips:  I dont trian with power, but this course was pretty flat (some mild hills) thats why I was so P&^%ed that I should have taken advantage of it.  I train on more hills than what was on this race......subjectively and maybe if I was measured objectively, I feel like 1) I dont sustain the power over a long period of time 2) if I do sustain it, it wears me down so when I get off the bike , I can run but at a much slower pace

 

btw: this race was 58 miles and not 56 so maybe i could shed a few more minutes in a standard HIM



Edited by FELTGood 2012-05-07 8:37 PM
2012-05-07 8:38 PM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

I was 2:36 for a bike split last summer.  I had been doing about 100-150km a week, mainly following this plan as far as volume: http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_trainingprograms/tno_HIM.asp, peaking at 230ish km in a week (though I probably peaked at 200ish).

For each ride though, I generally just did my own thing rather than the recommended zones or speedwork for the day, which for me usually amounts to pacing to be exhausted by the end of the ride.

All that said, I died on the run.  I blame the heat that day and my prodigious sweat production, though it is possible I overbiked.



2012-05-07 8:41 PM
in reply to: #4196145

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
ChrisM - 2012-05-07 9:31 PM

Not terribly below 6, or even 3 on the bike (2:55), but for Oceanside which is moderately difficult I rode about 230-250 miles per month Nov- Dec, and about 375 miles per month Jan - march, so definitely not a ton.  Did a lot of that on the CT with intervals, only did about 5 long rides (as in over 4 hours)

I have to say I paced the entire bike by feel and the mantra to save it for the run, came off the bike feeling as if I hadn't done anything up to that point, and ready to run.  Ran about 6 minutes slower than my best open HM

You can check my logs, I was up to nearly 5K a year back in 2008, then got sick and dialed it way back, 2009 through 2011 I was 1500-2500 a year. 

 

^^^^^ well compared to you I am lacking 4hr+ rides, I was usually around 3hrs and around 80-100 miles/week

2012-05-07 8:45 PM
in reply to: #4196161

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
AHare - 2012-05-07 9:38 PM

I was 2:36 for a bike split last summer.  I had been doing about 100-150km a week, mainly following this plan as far as volume: http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_trainingprograms/tno_HIM.asp, peaking at 230ish km in a week (though I probably peaked at 200ish).

For each ride though, I generally just did my own thing rather than the recommended zones or speedwork for the day, which for me usually amounts to pacing to be exhausted by the end of the ride.

All that said, I died on the run.  I blame the heat that day and my prodigious sweat production, though it is possible I overbiked.

 

thanks....after looking at this chart I have not had any weeks near 125-145 miles so it may be a simple as just having to get more miles in per week..thanks again

2012-05-07 8:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

1:53 standalone to 2:15 in a HIM isn't awful.  Not great, but not awful.  It probably means that you overcooked the bike a tiny bit, or it was particularly hot, or you just had a less than great day running.

FWIW I think that consistent hard riding is more important than how many 3+ hour rides you did, though it is important to get those longer rides in as well, and to be sure that they are race effort or harder (preferably the latter, IMO).

I don't think that absolute numbers are really very helpful here.  Anybody who says "If you ride X miles per month you'll hit your goal" is lying or guessing.

2012-05-07 9:00 PM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

You can take a look at my logs.  I went sub 6 in my first HIM (June 2011)after about 18 months in the sport.

The key for me was having some run and bike focus seasons.  I did a couple of marathons where I averaged 40-50 mpw, and I also focused one summer on the bike averaging over 180 mpw.  I don't think I could have made as much progress in each sport in that time frame by trying to S/B/R evenly.

By the time Jan 2011 came around and I focused on HIM training...110 mpw biking and 30 mpw running didn't even seem that bad.

 

2012-05-07 10:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

Man I wish I had an answer for you, hopefully some more experienced athletes can maybe incorporate my opinion into something that will be useful for you.  I think intensity during your rides has a lot to do with it.  I had a bike split of 2:52 at my first HIM (IMKS 70.3 in June 2011), at an average speed of 19.5 mph.  That was only my fourth ride of more than 50 miles.  Below are my logs leading up to IMKS which was in June 2011.  Actually that June 2011 bike total includes the race.  At the end of the 2010 season, I was a 20-21 mph sprint distance cyclist on a fairly flat course.  I had never done any Oly distance leading up to the HIM.  My run suffered, my open HM times were in the 1:42 range and I ended up 2:03 in that race.  Due in part to bike fitness and also I would say poor nutrition during the bike.

But as you can see, I ended up with a 5:41 HIM time with terrible T1+T2 times and a 2:03 run split.  Swim was good but the horrible transition times negated the good swim.  The bike is what got me under 6 hours.

I don't get it, my bike volume is quite low compared to many others who finish in over 6 hours.

Mayb it's because I seldomly ride easy.  The only time I "rest" the legs is when I'm taking in nutrition or recovering from a tough hill.

I did train for and run an April marathon so maybe that's what helped my overall fitness for a long HIM but I really don't know.

It's not the equipment I can tell you that.  I had a low end road bike with clip ons and Sora components, stock Alex wheels.  Genetics?  Weight?  I weighed 195 lbs race day, I'm 6'2" tall.

Nutrition during the race can play in big part in your results so how what that?





(2010 to 2011 BT Tng.JPG)



Attachments
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2010 to 2011 BT Tng.JPG (49KB - 5 downloads)


2012-05-08 12:20 AM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

FWIW I think that consistent hard riding is more important than how many 3+ hour rides you did, though it is important to get those longer rides in as well, and to be sure that they are race effort or harder (preferably the latter, IMO).

^^ Well said.

I bike a 2:35 on HIM distance.  I'd say the majority of my weekday rides are about an hour, whether that's on the trainer or outside.  I did planned interval training over the winter.  Now that it is better weather, I commute to work (not daily... yet) - about an hour each way on a hilly route.  I push the entire way on those.

Depending on my "A" event, I start adding in a long ride on the weekend, increasing time as I get closer to the race day.  Pretty typical for most plans I think.

But the only way you're going to see a real power increase is by killing it on the weekday rides.  That increase to your top-end potential is what you need to get your time down.  The long weekend ride will help you carry it through on the HIM.

Too many long Z2 rides will soak up time without building up that power.



Edited by spudone 2012-05-08 12:22 AM
2012-05-08 7:15 AM
in reply to: #4196194

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
Experior - 2012-05-07 9:55 PM

1:53 standalone to 2:15 in a HIM isn't awful.  Not great, but not awful.  It probably means that you overcooked the bike a tiny bit, or it was particularly hot, or you just had a less than great day running.

FWIW I think that consistent hard riding is more important than how many 3+ hour rides you did, though it is important to get those longer rides in as well, and to be sure that they are race effort or harder (preferably the latter, IMO).

I don't think that absolute numbers are really very helpful here.  Anybody who says "If you ride X miles per month you'll hit your goal" is lying or guessing.

 

^^^^^^I think this is really important. My only HIM was in 2009, my 1st year of tri's but back then I averaged 325mi/month for the 4months before the race. I thought then and I strongly believe now that I was not nearly prepared for the race. That being said in that mileage I did all my longer rides at HIM race pace. With lower miles like I did and basically what you did you have to do all those 2:30 and 3:00 rides right at or even a tad quicker than you plan to go during the race.

2012-05-08 7:53 AM
in reply to: #4196194

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
Experior - 2012-05-07 8:55 PM

1:53 standalone to 2:15 in a HIM isn't awful.  Not great, but not awful.  It probably means that you overcooked the bike a tiny bit, or it was particularly hot, or you just had a less than great day running.

FWIW I think that consistent hard riding is more important than how many 3+ hour rides you did, though it is important to get those longer rides in as well, and to be sure that they are race effort or harder (preferably the latter, IMO).

I don't think that absolute numbers are really very helpful here.  Anybody who says "If you ride X miles per month you'll hit your goal" is lying or guessing.

I think the run split at two hours is pretty good. Not great, and not awful. For people doing three sports, many of whom aren't really runners, a 9-10 minute mile is pretty good especially after 56 miles. But I absolutely agree that consistent hard riding is the most important aspect. I do most of my hard riding on my trainer with the help of trainerroad. I would also set goals - say 40 minute swim, 3 hour bike, 2 hour run, and you have some transition and wiggle room time in there. Figure out what it takes to get to that pace for you. Pacing takes time to learn to do it right for each person. I'm still learning what I can do, and had a sub six at the end of my first season, and another at the beginning of my second. HTH.
2012-05-08 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
thanks for input....Im getting the idea that you all would you say that doing a harder ride at 25 miles  going into zone 3, really pushing yourself 4 times a week with scattered long rides is better than doing lower intensity 50 mile rides?
2012-05-08 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
thanks for input....Im getting the idea that you all would you say that doing a harder ride at 25 miles  going into zone 3, really pushing yourself 4 times a week with scattered long rides is better than doing lower intensity 50 mile rides?


2012-05-08 9:09 AM
in reply to: #4196099

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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
thanks for input....Im getting the idea that you all would you say that doing a harder ride at 25 miles  going into zone 3, really pushing yourself 4 times a week with scattered long rides is better than doing lower intensity 50 mile rides?
2012-05-08 9:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
thanks for input....Im getting the idea that you all would you say that doing a harder ride at 25 miles  going into zone 3, really pushing yourself 4 times a week with scattered long rides is better than doing lower intensity 50 mile rides?
2012-05-08 9:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps


Edited by FELTGood 2012-05-08 9:33 AM
2012-05-08 9:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

so my experience is ride a lot at higher intensity. I have only done 1 HIM which was really just a bike-run as swim was cancelled so take this with a grain of salt. Regardless, my bike during 70.3 Pocono's IronMan was 108/194 in 35-39AG and 365/909 for all men. A MOP of performance fr a hilly course.

My trining leading up to it was one interval session of 1:30hrs on trainer, 1-2 easy 1hr spins on trainer, and 1 long ride every weekend. For me a long ride is 4-6 hours and I did 3 centuries prior to race. Overkill, I know but I love the bike and ride with a bunch of roadies (no S-R for them). Although the weekend ride is long intensity is also high with sprints thrown in. Short of the days i did a century on I could always run the next day for a long run of 10+ miles

I would dial up the intensity on the bike. Considering your age (like me) it is up to you to see if you can handle 1 or 2 interval sessioins during the week in addition to your S and R.

2012-05-08 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps

FELTGood - 2012-05-08 7:13 AM thanks for input....Im getting the idea that you all would you say that doing a harder ride at 25 miles  going into zone 3, really pushing yourself 4 times a week with scattered long rides is better than doing lower intensity 50 mile rides?

Variety really is the spice of life. Don't limit yourself to Z2 or Z3 riding. Lot's of training in low Z4 will help increase your FTP while allowing you to recover in time for your next session. Limited training in Z5 will help improve your VO2max and also increase your FTP. Any gains you see from training in the higher aerobic zones will be reflected in your lower zones and will occur faster.

I do a lot of training in Z3/Z4. This is especially true when riding on the trainer, where structured intervals help with the boredom. The intervals can be hard, but that's the idea behind training. I also do long weekly group rides which really push me. Don't get rid of the long rides, but keep your shorter rides intense. Add some intensity into your long rides too, even if you're doing them alone. You'll see much faster gains by doing this.

Leave the long, steady, Z2 rides for races and charity rides. When training, push yourself to gain fitness. Train hard, race easy.

My last HIM bike split was ~2:25.



2012-05-08 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
DP.


Edited by MonkeyClaw 2012-05-08 9:44 AM
2012-05-08 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
....

Edited by MonkeyClaw 2012-05-08 9:44 AM
2012-05-08 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
DP


Edited by MonkeyClaw 2012-05-08 9:43 AM
2012-05-08 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Bike volume advice from sub 6 hr HIM peeps
Oops.

Edited by MonkeyClaw 2012-05-08 9:42 AM
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