General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Worst Bike Fit--- Ever? Rss Feed  
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2012-05-09 7:07 AM

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Subject: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

Hi BTers,

As you can see in the video linked below, I really need some help with suggestions on how to improve my bike fit.  Unfortunately I don't live anywhere near an LBS that can help (the only LBS in the area primarily handles mountain bikes, and admits their knowledge on roadies is limited). 

Anyway, I've set this bike up on my own as best I could and would appreciate any advice on how I can get more 'aero'.  I'm on a basic Trek road bike using profile design T2+DL clip-on aerobars.

I know the video isn't great --in fact, I'm wondering now if it is the worst bike fit video--ever  ;-) , but I don't currently own rollers or a trainer.  If necessary I can try to get someone to film me from a moving car.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYUbQ9LdHo

 

Thanks very much in advance.  Laughing

 



2012-05-09 7:22 AM
in reply to: #4199119

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
It's by far not the worst bike fit ever, it's actually pretty decent. Yes, the video does leave much to be desired, but I tried to stop at some of the more critical points and far what I can see, your seat height looks about correct, so does you position over the BB (although this is no more than a qualified guess as you can't see other issues, such as flexibility, core strength etc.).

You need to ask yourself what is more important, to have a functioning road bike or to be more aerodynamic at the cost of efficiency/comfort... you're not going to have both. Right now, it looks like you would be able to use your road bike as a comfortable and efficient bike in a group ride, but with the aerobars positioned to gain some advantage, but without compromising handling/balance.
2012-05-09 7:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

Maybe this will be more helpful for others to comment on.

Angles look ok, but the elbows though seem to be too far forward from the shoulders.

2012-05-09 7:31 AM
in reply to: #4199156

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
Good job Donto!

Elbows are forward, but this is a road bike and unless you're willing to compromise the fit as a road bike, it's not much you can do about it...
2012-05-09 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
I am not a bike guru so take with grain of salt.

Elbows to far forward and you seem to upright as if you need to drop the front . Do you have spacers in there?

But a defer to the experts
2012-05-09 8:18 AM
in reply to: #4199119

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
You can only do so much with the road bike, if you drop the front to much and bring the elbows back with a shorter stem you will be changing the ride of the frame in not a good way. It will get twitchy. You don't look bad, looks like you can see well so I think you should leave it and enjoy it till you can get enough$ for a tri bike in a year or 2. John.


2012-05-09 8:57 AM
in reply to: #4199119

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
Have you put in any miles in this setup yet? I am in a similar situation with my Trek roadie. Please follow up with feedback and/or pics if u adjust the fit appreciably. Thanks! Looks comfy from here though...
2012-05-09 9:41 AM
in reply to: #4199119

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
I would drop the bars to get your back flatter and then adjust the extensions until you can move your hands between the aerobars and the drops without changing your shoulder position.  Chances are your forearms will be on the pads instead of your elbows (ala ITU style), but you have to compromise to run aerobars on a road bike.  
2012-05-09 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

Not as terrible as you think.

Your seat is too high.  Lower it 1" then learn to push the heel down more so the foot is flat while pedaling.

Then lower your stem.  Pull the stem off, remove the spacers, put the stem back on, place spacers above.  You may also want to flip the stem so it's angled downward more.

Your road bike probably isn't even properly fitted as a road bike.  For instance, the body position you have while on the aerobars is somewhere between where it should be with your hands on the bars...so for both styles of riding you want to lower that stem.

As for your arms being forward as others have pointed out...since it's a road bike with clip ons, this may be unavoidable so it's not worth mentioning.

After you make these changes, post up the video again but try to include 2 ride-bys.  One riding the aerobars and one with hands on the brake hoods.

 

2012-05-09 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
on a road bike it can be really hard to nail that 90 degree angle in the elbow.  and not every body is the same.  you may not want a 90 degree elbow.
2012-05-09 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
JeffY - 2012-05-09 12:31 PM

Your seat is too high.  Lower it 1" then learn to push the heel down more so the foot is flat while pedaling.

Then lower your stem.  Pull the stem off, remove the spacers, put the stem back on, place spacers above.  You may also want to flip the stem so it's angled downward more.

Your road bike probably isn't even properly fitted as a road bike.  For instance, the body position you have while on the aerobars is somewhere between where it should be with your hands on the bars...so for both styles of riding you want to lower that stem.

As for your arms being forward as others have pointed out...since it's a road bike with clip ons, this may be unavoidable so it's not worth mentioning.

After you make these changes, post up the video again but try to include 2 ride-bys.  One riding the aerobars and one with hands on the brake hoods.

 



I really don't agree JeffY... I don't think is too high. If you stop the video right at 90deg to the camera and with the leg fully extended, you can see a good knee angled. I think that maybe you're looking at the toes pointing downwards and if it wasn't for the knee angle, I would tend to say the same as you... I think the seat is just fine.

Also, if you drop the handle bar height, you will drop the aero bar height, but you will also have quite an aggressive drop handle bar drop...

I would not recommend setting the bike up to ride on the hoods... you should really set up the bike to ride in the drops. The hoods are good for climbing, but otherwise, you really should be in the drops (aerodynamics and balance will be significantly improved).


2012-05-09 1:40 PM
in reply to: #4199972

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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
audiojan - 2012-05-09 12:17 PM
JeffY - 2012-05-09 12:31 PM

Your seat is too high.  Lower it 1" then learn to push the heel down more so the foot is flat while pedaling.

Then lower your stem.  Pull the stem off, remove the spacers, put the stem back on, place spacers above.  You may also want to flip the stem so it's angled downward more.

Your road bike probably isn't even properly fitted as a road bike.  For instance, the body position you have while on the aerobars is somewhere between where it should be with your hands on the bars...so for both styles of riding you want to lower that stem.

As for your arms being forward as others have pointed out...since it's a road bike with clip ons, this may be unavoidable so it's not worth mentioning.

After you make these changes, post up the video again but try to include 2 ride-bys.  One riding the aerobars and one with hands on the brake hoods.

 

I really don't agree JeffY... I don't think is too high. If you stop the video right at 90deg to the camera and with the leg fully extended, you can see a good knee angled. I think that maybe you're looking at the toes pointing downwards and if it wasn't for the knee angle, I would tend to say the same as you... I think the seat is just fine. Also, if you drop the handle bar height, you will drop the aero bar height, but you will also have quite an aggressive drop handle bar drop... I would not recommend setting the bike up to ride on the hoods... you should really set up the bike to ride in the drops. The hoods are good for climbing, but otherwise, you really should be in the drops (aerodynamics and balance will be significantly improved).

Here's where I'm coming from.  His knee angle looks good but toes are down.  He needs to lower his heel while pedaling (this is important but I won't go into why) and he currently can't do that or he would be hyperextending his knee.  We agree on what knee angle we'd like to see I just know he needs to lower his saddle to fix the ankle angle.

I didn't suggest he set it up for the hoods, but that he take a shot while on the hoods.  You set a road bike up in a way that uses all 3 bar positions for their proper purpose.

However, the hoods are the bread and butter position for a roadie.  Probably 80% of riding time is on the hoods and probably 50% or more of racing time (road racing) is on the hoods too.  Drops are for sprinting (depending on rider's preference) and for getting low on a break when breaking the wind...and will often have a HORIZONTAL back depending on the rider.

This particular rider may not be a racer but he looks young, athletic, trim and able to obtain the proper competitive road bike fit.

2012-05-09 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
Ok, fair points. I still don't think the seat is too high... some people ride with toes pointing downwards naturally, nothing wrong with that. I think we can agree that a bike fit would be a whole lot better than us trying to help online...

I definitely do not agree that the hoods are the "bread and butter" for a road cyclist though. A properly fitted bike will be more comfortable and more efficient riding in the drops. Personally, I used to ride on the hoods most of the time, but as I started racing, I learned quite quickly why you want to ride in the drops... more efficient, but more than anything else, a much lower point of gravity will result in a much better balanced bike. You also increase the brake force (by using the lever action...) in the drops
2012-05-09 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

is your seat as far forward as it will go on the rails? This may help in a number of way by giving you more confort on your elbows by being more perpindicular as well as getting your leg more extension in which case you may not need to drop the seat.

Other than that I would also remove spacers (if any) and flip and drop stem. However, riding in this position can depend on your flexibility and may not be very comfortable

2012-05-09 3:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

I have to admit I am a bit disappointed in this thread.  When you said "Worst bike fit ever" I was picturing something more like this!

 



Edited by 2453V 2012-05-09 3:20 PM
2012-05-09 3:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
The first thing a bike fitter will do (after the interview, strength/flexibility, etc., i.e. after 75% of the work has been done in other words), is to set the riders position over the bottom bracket. That is the center point for everything else you move/adjust/change. That's also the reason why you shouldn't move a rider forward just to make the front end more comfortable... you move the front end, not the rider!

To really do this right, we would need to know quite a bit more... will this bike be used as a road bike (i.e. group rides, charity rides, etc. etc.) for example. You can't have a bike that is set up as a well fitted road bike and as a well fitted tri bike... just not possible, so you have to look at what compromises we can live with.


2012-05-09 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

audiojan - 2012-05-09 1:59 PM Ok, fair points. I still don't think the seat is too high... some people ride with toes pointing downwards naturally, nothing wrong with that. I think we can agree that a bike fit would be a whole lot better than us trying to help online... I definitely do not agree that the hoods are the "bread and butter" for a road cyclist though. A properly fitted bike will be more comfortable and more efficient riding in the drops. Personally, I used to ride on the hoods most of the time, but as I started racing, I learned quite quickly why you want to ride in the drops... more efficient, but more than anything else, a much lower point of gravity will result in a much better balanced bike. You also increase the brake force (by using the lever action...) in the drops

I certainly used to agree that toes down can be a valid cycling technique.  I used to try to use my calves for cycling power thinking that heel down at the top and toe down at the bottom was adding propulsion via the ankle joint.  I have evolved past that belief.  And I've also evolved past the belief that does down without ankling is just as valid. 

I found that toes down will tend to recruit more quads and less glutes.  but since glutes are stronger and more fatigue resistant than quads...at least inately, that heel down is better because that recruits more glutes. 

You can disagree and I can respect that perspective, just wanted to explain myself.  (plus in the video I noticed hip rocking and it just looked like he was having to reach with the hips to avoid overextending his knee).

As for drops...I used to ride the hoods and race the drops back in the day when I used downtube shifting.  Yes, it's a great position.  I felt I could brake harder and handle better.  But the newer equipment with shifting on the levers makes it cumbersome to shift from the drops so most cyclists have relegated the drops to more extreme efforts such as descending and sprinting.  The levers and hoods are now made assuming they are the primary riding position.  That's not true for you, but it's true for most roadies.  Again, that's just me explaining myself.  It's valid for you to do it differently.

 

2012-05-09 4:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
At least no one can say that we don't have opinions!

Either way, I think we agree that a proper bike fit would be helpful.
2012-05-10 6:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
Donto - 2012-05-09 7:25 PM

Maybe this will be more helpful for others to comment on.

Thanks for taking the time to capture this image from the video.

.

audiojan - 2012-05-09 7:31 PM Good job Donto! Elbows are forward, but this is a road bike and unless you're willing to compromise the fit as a road bike, it's not much you can do about it...

I put the aerobars up as far as they could be extended, so maybe I need to pull them back a bit to get closer to 90 - 110 degrees.

FELTGood - 2012-05-09 7:32 PM  you seem to upright as if you need to drop the front . Do you have spacers in there?

There are three spacers, and I'm going to start by taking out one and then after a few rides determine if I should take out another one.  Thanks for the suggestion.

.

gbrad - 2012-05-09 8:57 PM Have you put in any miles in this setup yet? I am in a similar situation with my Trek roadie. Please follow up with feedback and/or pics if u adjust the fit appreciably. ..

Since adding the bars I've logged about 200 miles and increased my average speed by slightly more than 1 mile per hour.  As I mentioned above, I'm going to experiment with removing the spacers, and I'll report back with how it works out.

.

psycleridr - 2012-05-10 3:14 AM

is your seat as far forward as it will go on the rails? This may help in a number of way by giving you more confort on your elbows by being more perpindicular as well as getting your leg more extension in which case you may not need to drop the seat.

Yes, after reading so many threads here on BT about road bikes, it's one of the first things I did after clipping on the bars.

 .

AudioJan and JeffY you have definitely given me some food for thought regarding seat height.  Thanks for that.  And thanks to everyone else for responding with such helpful advice and information.

I'm going to make a few adjustments in the coming days and will try to post a better video or photo in hopes that you'll kindly offer more feedback.

Thanks again.

2012-05-12 2:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?

Hi again,

Taking all of your advice and suggestions into account, I made a few adjustments to my bike and aerobars.  I think the biggest change are that I removed a spacer from the stem and changed the position of the forearm rests on the aerobars. 

Here's a post-adjustment photo:

I still feel that I'm too upright, but I don't think that I would want to remove another spacer--there are two remaining. I went out for a long ride today, and I could feel that I didn't have the same control as before---but I didn't feel it was "dangerous.  I also had some minor pain in my shoulders and neck. 

Any additional (or new) advice or suggestions on how to improve my fit would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Smile

2012-05-12 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
According to triracebook, seat has to go forward and lower the front (looks like flipping the stem would work well).  As others have suggested though, fit is also about comfort, flexability and tolerance levels as well



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2012-05-12 11:18 AM
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2012-05-14 9:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
JCZ. I would agree the fit looks improved from before. Since you mentioned seat is all the way forward I would have to say to drop your seat 1-2cm. I would also say to remove all the spacers from below the stem. You mentioned you moved one but not if you moved the other two and found it uncomfortable and moved it back. I would suggest to try and if truly uncomfortable then move it back. Short of getting a fast forward seat post you wll not get much better as you are on a compromised bike fit (road bike) to begin. I also have a road bike and will try to post a pic of my set up for critique as well . However, I am a life long cyclist and very flexible. All things that can affect your fit.
2012-05-14 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Worst Bike Fit--- Ever?
The new fit does look slightly better. Seat might actually be too high, looking at the new photo. I would drop it down slightly (do it in steps and conservatively each time), start with 0.25" and see how that feel like.

I would disagree with moving the seat forward though... you're not on a tri bike, so shifting too much of your weight forward will cause the bike to feel unstable and twitchy; road bikes are designed to have more of a rearward weight distribution. Also, moving forward would compromise your road position in the drop or on the hoods.

Regarding the instability you felt after the change; this is fairly normal. Ride for a few weeks before judging the new position, it will take time to adapt.
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