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2012-05-11 2:38 PM

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Subject: Increasing Your Stroke Rate

I'm struggling with increasing my pace on the swim and after reading some SwimSmooth articles I'm wondering if I have dead spots in my stroke.  I started this journey teaching myself using the TI book and DVD which focused on a relaxed and gliding stroke.  Now I'm wondering if there is too much glide in my stroke.  There is an interesting chart on the SwimSmooth site that compares optimal stroke rates for different paces.  I'm currently around a 90 on a 50 scy golf round; 40 strokes at :50.  If I'm doing my math right I think that comes out to around 48 strokes per minute and the chart says 60 would be closer to optimal.

So what's the best way to go about increasing my stroke rate?  I've tried a few times and it really throws my timing off and makes it more difficult to breathe.  Perhaps the first question is do I really need to increase my stroke rate?  I know video would help but I don't have one right now.  I think my dead spots are that I take too long to get my breath and gliding while I do that I lose momentum and the other is that I may take my pull too far back.  So to bring it back around: would increasing my stroke rate be beneficial? If so, how do I go about doing it?  Thanks in advance for the help.



2012-05-11 3:16 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
You'll get a varied range of answers for this and even at the top level stroke rates can vary a decent bit from swimmer to swimmer. However imo a faster stroke rate can definitely turn into some good gains, especially in OW where it is more important. Honestly it sounds like you know what you need to do. It's going to feel awkward and wrong at first. That's what happens when you make changes to your stroke that you've drilled in so much already. Most good swimmers will tell you that if it feels really good, there probably is something that needs to be tweaked.

I like to focus on starting my catch as soon as my hands hit the water as a drill. So your hands enter the water (make sure your hands are getting well out in front before they enter), then once they hit the water start your pull. It's a drill, so it'll be over exageration of reality, but it'll get the point across to your body.

Mainly you don't want your hands sitting out in front of you doing nothing.
2012-05-11 3:34 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate

Thanks smilford and that's exactly what I've been noticing.  I breathe every other stroke and I notice that my lead hand is sitting out there doing nothing when I grab a breath.  What's worse is when I breathe to my right I lift my head and then I notice that I'm making the dreaded "stop sign" with my left hand.

Would a tempo trainer be worth the $ ?

2012-05-11 3:41 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
I think tempo trainers are well worth the money.  However, make sure you don't shorten your stroke in order to increase the stroke rate.

Edited by Hook'em 2012-05-11 3:42 PM
2012-05-11 3:50 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Yeah, definitely want to avoid that at least out front correct?  What if I shorten the final phase of my pull and begin my recovery at the hip and not past it like I've been doing?  From what I understand there is not much if anything to be gained pulling/pushing past that point.
2012-05-11 4:02 PM
in reply to: #4205323

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate

trinity - 2012-05-11 3:50 PM Yeah, definitely want to avoid that at least out front correct?  What if I shorten the final phase of my pull and begin my recovery at the hip and not past it like I've been doing?  From what I understand there is not much if anything to be gained pulling/pushing past that point.

There are several people on the board who are better qualified to answer your questions.  I wouldn't want to shorten much off the end because I still push plenty of water past my hip.  I think what you would be looking to do is decrease the amount of time it takes to make a full stroke (pushing the water faster).

I spend a bunch of time making my stroke smoother with TI.  This year I have been making my smooth stroke faster, but I try not to change much of the fundamental stroke.

My warm-up stroke count per 50 is 26 strokes.  When I am really cruising, that might increase to 30.



Edited by Hook'em 2012-05-11 4:04 PM


2012-05-11 4:05 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Ending you're pull at around your hip is good rule of thumb, but that's all it is. IF you're hand is coming out of the water at the start of the hip you're cutting it off a little early. End your pull by your hip, but you're hand will still officially exit past your hip, and push some water with it.



Edited by smilford 2012-05-11 4:08 PM
2012-05-11 4:10 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
How tall are you?

20 strokes per 25 yds is on the high side, unless you are 5'2" or shorter. You should continue to work on improving your form to eliminate sources of drag...like that "stop sign hand" on breathing.

When you rotate to breath, your lead hand should feel weightless...not pressing down and not stroking. While it may sound like it's a good idea ot start your stroke as soon as possible out front, the moment you begin your catch you start slowing down.

It sounds incredibly counter intuitive, but your fastest moment is when you are longest in the water and you have just finshed spearing...you want to hold onto that moment as long as you can UNTIL it becomes detrimental.

Usually when people have dead spots in their stroke, it's not because the lead hand hasn't yet started, it's because the recovery arm is paused in the back. This is common when transitioning from the skating (older term side kicking) drills and the rear arm is just laying ther.e

The dead spots you are describing sound like a form issue with the lead hand rising on the breath and the rear hand pausing too long in the back.

On your next swim, think about "releasing" the arm from the water by drawing a circle with the elbow during recovery. as the hand passes the waist and approaches the hips, simply swing the elbow away from your body and imagine drawing a circle with the elbow as if it was writing on a the wall directly to your side.

Getting the recoveyr hand moving and not pausing is usually the first fix to a delay in the stroke somewhere. While that recovery hand is getting ready to enter the water, hang onto that streamline...the fastest moment of your stroke, until the recovery arm is ready to take over the streamlined position in the next half of hte cycle. That way the next stroke will be applying traction towards a streamlined body ready to move quickly through the water, rather than against a shortened body with the recoveyr arm still coming around.

Aside from all that, the TEmpo Trainer is definately money well spent.

The Total Immersion forums are filled with practice ideas with the tempo trainer under "favorite sets & practices", and if you post some questions & metrics there you'll get lots of helpful ideas.
2012-05-11 4:11 PM
in reply to: #4205340

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Hook'em - 2012-05-11 3:02 PM

trinity - 2012-05-11 3:50 PM Yeah, definitely want to avoid that at least out front correct?  What if I shorten the final phase of my pull and begin my recovery at the hip and not past it like I've been doing?  From what I understand there is not much if anything to be gained pulling/pushing past that point.

There are several people on the board who are better qualified to answer your questions.  I wouldn't want to shorten much off the end because I still push plenty of water past my hip.  I think what you would be looking to do is decrease the amount of time it takes to make a full stroke (pushing the water faster).

I spend a bunch of time making my stroke smoother with TI.  This year I have been making my smooth stroke faster, but I try not to change much of the fundamental stroke.

My warm-up stroke count per 50 is 26 strokes.  When I am really cruising, that might increase to 30.



Sounds like you are perfect candidate to start doing work with the tempo trainer, as your stroke length is really optimized (unless you're 7 feet tall). Have you been doing any TT work?
2012-05-11 4:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate

I have just gotten through the first part of Sheila Taormina's book and her equation is that if you multiply the number of strokes by the rate at which you take those strokes, then you have your time. By figuring out this number, you can then reduce the number of strokes you take and increase your turnover to decrease your time.

It has everything to do with the pull.  She states that many swimmers and triathletes neglect the pull, distracted by stroke count or perfecting less critical details like body position, streamlining, and roll. Swim Speed Secrets focuses on the pull—the most crucial element of swimming—to help triathletes and swimmers overhaul their swim stroke and find the speed that's been eluding them.

I have been working her techniques, and I couldn't recommend it more.  My pull has improved and I am amazed at the decrease in strokes I have to take and how much faster I am becoming.  


2012-05-11 4:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
ecozenmama - 2012-05-11 3:23 PM

I have just gotten through the first part of Sheila Taormina's book and her equation is that if you multiply the number of strokes by the rate at which you take those strokes, then you have your time. By figuring out this number, you can then reduce the number of strokes you take and increase your turnover to decrease your time.

It has everything to do with the pull.  She states that many swimmers and triathletes neglect the pull, distracted by stroke count or perfecting less critical details like body position, streamlining, and roll. Swim Speed Secrets focuses on the pull—the most crucial element of swimming—to help triathletes and swimmers overhaul their swim stroke and find the speed that's been eluding them.

I have been working her techniques, and I couldn't recommend it more.  My pull has improved and I am amazed at the decrease in strokes I have to take and how much faster I am becoming.  




That's fine (it's not her equation, it's simply the equation for velocity) except that the OP has already said that her lead hand scoops up when she breaths, creating drag. Based on this and hundreds of videos of swimmers i've reviewed, her hips are probably also dropping too. This is a balance & streamlining problem, not a propulsion problem. Propulsion is important too, but if you work on them in the wrong order you'll be using up a lot of energy trying to compensate for drag by pulling harder.

In other cases, when balance & streamlinign are already optimized, focusing energy on the stroke may be the next step, but for a stroke count of 20...chances are that there are many opportunities for improvement in a no-additional-energy-cost manner.


2012-05-11 5:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
To prove that I think tempo trainers are well worth the money, I'm posting a picture of hte package I JUST OPENED (between these postings). Oh, it feels like GOLD. I use these with all my swimmers of every level, even beginners. They help learn symmetry, assist with focus and can even smooth out your from even when not using them to try to get faster. In fact, they can help improve your stroke length (and decrease drag) by deliberately setting them slower and slower...till you reach your optimal stroke length based on height, and only THEN trying to increase the tempo bit by bit while holding onto length.



(photo(5).jpg)



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2012-05-11 5:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Increased stroke rate = increased fitness.  Not to be flippant, but given how much you've swum this year a good start would be to increase that by an order of magnitude or so.
2012-05-11 5:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
AdventureBear - 2012-05-11 4:45 PM
ecozenmama - 2012-05-11 3:23 PM

I have just gotten through the first part of Sheila Taormina's book and her equation is that if you multiply the number of strokes by the rate at which you take those strokes, then you have your time. By figuring out this number, you can then reduce the number of strokes you take and increase your turnover to decrease your time.

It has everything to do with the pull.  She states that many swimmers and triathletes neglect the pull, distracted by stroke count or perfecting less critical details like body position, streamlining, and roll. Swim Speed Secrets focuses on the pull—the most crucial element of swimming—to help triathletes and swimmers overhaul their swim stroke and find the speed that's been eluding them.

I have been working her techniques, and I couldn't recommend it more.  My pull has improved and I am amazed at the decrease in strokes I have to take and how much faster I am becoming.  


That's fine (it's not her equation, it's simply the equation for velocity) except that the OP has already said that her lead hand scoops up when she breaths, creating drag. Based on this and hundreds of videos of swimmers i've reviewed, her hips are probably also dropping too. This is a balance & streamlining problem, not a propulsion problem. Propulsion is important too, but if you work on them in the wrong order you'll be using up a lot of energy trying to compensate for drag by pulling harder. In other cases, when balance & streamlinign are already optimized, focusing energy on the stroke may be the next step, but for a stroke count of 20...chances are that there are many opportunities for improvement in a no-additional-energy-cost manner.

Thank you for clarifying this for me.  

2012-05-11 5:31 PM
in reply to: #4205159

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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
To the intial poster, your stroke rate sounds very similar to mine. I have a LOT of glide, but I am still building swimming endurance and working on like a million things like balance and breathing and having a good clean stroke. I cruise at about 17 strokes per 25yards, but when I pick up the pace it's more like 20-22 and that yields me a time of around 1:40 per 100, but my endurance is such that I can only do that for aout 300 yards. I'm 6'2", so maybe that makes it more acceptable for me than a shorter swimmer. I dunno. AB could tell you more about whether I'm doing anything right, but I've noticed that it's almost pointless to focus on increasing my rate this early on, cause all it does is make me a sloppy swimmer.
2012-05-11 7:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
AdventureBear - 2012-05-11 4:45 PM
ecozenmama - 2012-05-11 3:23 PM

I have just gotten through the first part of Sheila Taormina's book and her equation is that if you multiply the number of strokes by the rate at which you take those strokes, then you have your time. By figuring out this number, you can then reduce the number of strokes you take and increase your turnover to decrease your time.

It has everything to do with the pull.  She states that many swimmers and triathletes neglect the pull, distracted by stroke count or perfecting less critical details like body position, streamlining, and roll. Swim Speed Secrets focuses on the pull—the most crucial element of swimming—to help triathletes and swimmers overhaul their swim stroke and find the speed that's been eluding them.

I have been working her techniques, and I couldn't recommend it more.  My pull has improved and I am amazed at the decrease in strokes I have to take and how much faster I am becoming.  


That's fine (it's not her equation, it's simply the equation for velocity) except that the OP has already said that her lead hand scoops up when she breaths, creating drag. Based on this and hundreds of videos of swimmers i've reviewed, her hips are probably also dropping too. This is a balance & streamlining problem, not a propulsion problem. Propulsion is important too, but if you work on them in the wrong order you'll be using up a lot of energy trying to compensate for drag by pulling harder. In other cases, when balance & streamlinign are already optimized, focusing energy on the stroke may be the next step, but for a stroke count of 20...chances are that there are many opportunities for improvement in a no-additional-energy-cost manner.

IMO, everything is a propulsion problem first. Balance has it's place, but it's in the back seat. If I swim with a poor position but good propulsion (pull) then I can still beat 99% of those reading this. But if I have a poor pull, or propulsion, but good balance, then 50% or more of those reading will be faster. Propulsion corrects position, but position does not correct propulsion. Think of a water skiier. Sitting in the water waiting to go, their position is horrible. Hit the gas and the position is perfect. You can't reverse that equation. Same with a bike. Pedal your bike and you dial in the balance (because of propulsion). You don't spend a day in your driveway learning balance and end up improving your speed.

Anyway, IMO. for the sake of discussion. carry on.



2012-05-11 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Thanks TJ for clarifying this, I have been struggling with this also.
2012-05-11 10:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
tjfry - 2012-05-11 6:00 PM

If I swim with a poor position but good propulsion (pull) then I can still beat 99% of those reading this. But if I have a poor pull, or propulsion, but good balance, then 50% or more of those reading will be faster. Propulsion corrects position, but position does not correct propulsion.


99% of people reading this with good position AND a good pull still can't beat you no matter what.


Edited by AdventureBear 2012-05-11 10:31 PM
2012-05-11 10:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Danno77 - 2012-05-11 4:31 PM

To the intial poster, your stroke rate sounds very similar to mine. I have a LOT of glide, but I am still building swimming endurance and working on like a million things like balance and breathing and having a good clean stroke. I cruise at about 17 strokes per 25yards, but when I pick up the pace it's more like 20-22 and that yields me a time of around 1:40 per 100, but my endurance is such that I can only do that for aout 300 yards. I'm 6'2", so maybe that makes it more acceptable for me than a shorter swimmer. I dunno. AB could tell you more about whether I'm doing anything right, but I've noticed that it's almost pointless to focus on increasing my rate this early on, cause all it does is make me a sloppy swimmer.


5'3" 14-15 spl Yields about a 1:40/100 for me. I think you are right in continuing to focus on endurance and holding good form right now. What's your pace at 17 strokes? Can you sustain tht pace for 50, 100, 200 yards or does your rate slow and or your stroke count go up?

When you can sustain a long stoke over duration, work on increasing the rate while trying to hold onto the length. It's fine to give up strokes as long as they gain you speed. The onlynwaynto determine this is to do some trials. A tempo trainer makes it pretty easy to do empirical trials with temp and stroke length to find where your weaknesses are and create specific metrics to improve them.
2012-05-11 11:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
AdventureBear - 2012-05-11 10:44 PM

Danno77 - 2012-05-11 4:31 PM

To the intial poster, your stroke rate sounds very similar to mine. I have a LOT of glide, but I am still building swimming endurance and working on like a million things like balance and breathing and having a good clean stroke. I cruise at about 17 strokes per 25yards, but when I pick up the pace it's more like 20-22 and that yields me a time of around 1:40 per 100, but my endurance is such that I can only do that for aout 300 yards. I'm 6'2", so maybe that makes it more acceptable for me than a shorter swimmer. I dunno. AB could tell you more about whether I'm doing anything right, but I've noticed that it's almost pointless to focus on increasing my rate this early on, cause all it does is make me a sloppy swimmer.


5'3" 14-15 spl Yields about a 1:40/100 for me. I think you are right in continuing to focus on endurance and holding good form right now. What's your pace at 17 strokes? Can you sustain tht pace for 50, 100, 200 yards or does your rate slow and or your stroke count go up?

When you can sustain a long stoke over duration, work on increasing the rate while trying to hold onto the length. It's fine to give up strokes as long as they gain you speed. The onlynwaynto determine this is to do some trials. A tempo trainer makes it pretty easy to do empirical trials with temp and stroke length to find where your weaknesses are and create specific metrics to improve them.
17 ends up being about 2:00 even for 100 yards. I can hold that pretty evenly for maybe 500 yards, maybe with a hiccup or two in there.
2012-05-11 11:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
Danno77 - 2012-05-11 10:22 PM

AdventureBear - 2012-05-11 10:44 PM

Danno77 - 2012-05-11 4:31 PM

To the intial poster, your stroke rate sounds very similar to mine. I have a LOT of glide, but I am still building swimming endurance and working on like a million things like balance and breathing and having a good clean stroke. I cruise at about 17 strokes per 25yards, but when I pick up the pace it's more like 20-22 and that yields me a time of around 1:40 per 100, but my endurance is such that I can only do that for aout 300 yards. I'm 6'2", so maybe that makes it more acceptable for me than a shorter swimmer. I dunno. AB could tell you more about whether I'm doing anything right, but I've noticed that it's almost pointless to focus on increasing my rate this early on, cause all it does is make me a sloppy swimmer.


5'3" 14-15 spl Yields about a 1:40/100 for me. I think you are right in continuing to focus on endurance and holding good form right now. What's your pace at 17 strokes? Can you sustain tht pace for 50, 100, 200 yards or does your rate slow and or your stroke count go up?

When you can sustain a long stoke over duration, work on increasing the rate while trying to hold onto the length. It's fine to give up strokes as long as they gain you speed. The onlynwaynto determine this is to do some trials. A tempo trainer makes it pretty easy to do empirical trials with temp and stroke length to find where your weaknesses are and create specific metrics to improve them.
17 ends up being about 2:00 even for 100 yards. I can hold that pretty evenly for maybe 500 yards, maybe with a hiccup or two in there.

Here is my suggestion, your current pace at 17 spl yields a tempo of around 1.5 seconds per stroke. That's typical for early stages of working on form. Get a tempo trainer and o some tests. Set it at 1.5 and start swimming. What's your spl and pace with tempo fixed?

Then create one sets where you lowly increase tempo and try to hold onto that 17 spl. By Doing it in tiny increments like .02 sec/stroke, holding the technical aspects will e much easier than trying to simply " swim harder"

Do sets of say 3x100 at 1.5, 1.48, 1.46, 1.44 etc until you stop improving paces or stroke out goes up. Rest and try it again.





2012-05-12 7:32 AM
in reply to: #4205159


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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate

Hey AB - which tempo trainer do you recommend?

 

I was going to buy the one from Finis, but it's got some not so great reviews about the clip breaking and the battery being nonreplaceable, so was wondering if you knew of any other ones or if it's really not an issue.

 

Thanks!

2012-05-12 11:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Increasing Your Stroke Rate
yazmaster - 2012-05-12 6:32 AM

Hey AB - which tempo trainer do you recommend?

 

I was going to buy the one from Finis, but it's got some not so great reviews about the clip breaking and the battery being nonreplaceable, so was wondering if you knew of any other ones or if it's really not an issue.

 

Thanks!



See the picture I posted...I just bought 7 on a closeout from a shop on Amazon. The blue ones don't have a replaceable battery, but most of the ones I've had last until I lose them. They are easy to lose. The clips do break easily, but I always wear a cap and don't use the clip. Many (I won't say most) guys or short haired people decide to wear a cap when using them since they are much more secure under a cap.

Finis now makes a Pro model with a replaceable battery, but every pro model I've had my hands on (4 total) has gotten wet inside and the LCD stopped working well.

There is one other company that makes them but I believe that to change the tempo you need a 2nd piece of equipment, a magnet, and to me that's just one more thing to lose.

If you buy one, I"ll send you the 7 clips from the ones I just bought. For the most part, the original blue ones take a beating and keep on beeping. I've sent 3 or 4 back to finis and they've replaced them for what felt like a short lived battery life.
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