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2012-05-15 4:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
indianacyclist - 2012-05-15 1:37 PM

That's a really interesting file. Looks like a CAT3 crit to me. They averaged like 25mph.

As a cyclist, I can't stand ITU style racing. It's all about who is the best runner. They might as well cut out the bike portion all together, all it does is slightly fatigue the best runners. 

What's your point? What would you expect the file to look like? A Cat 1 Crit? Even though it is proceeded by a swim and followed by a run? Wouldn't that make Triathletes better than a Cat 1 rider considering they don't get to warm up on a trainer ahead of time and then throw their bike down when it's over? Triathletes are not Cat 1 cyclists.....when they're in the middle of a tri...lol.



2012-05-15 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
Fred D - 2012-05-15 3:37 PM
z2012 - 2012-05-15 4:28 PM

 shows the incredible talent in ITU compared with ironman pro racing.

really not a fair comparison, considering the distances.  it's much different training and styles to try to make a blanket statement about the talent levels between the two.  It's like saying the guys that win the 400m make the marathoners look like a joke.

Do you forget that Macca was an ITU champion?

. Gawd people really get excited about quoting my statements and then making ridiculous statements. Calm down people lol. Macca WAS an ITU champ but he is way past that prime and can no longer win in that series. If you were to actually follow the way the circuits go, you would realize that usually the top ironman pros were once competing at ITU and then moved on to the half and full ironman distances when they start to fade at ITU racing. Ie; they are no longer ABLE to place highly in ITU so they race in a less athletically elite field which is MDot racing. Between you and Felton I seem to be a magnet for craziness. Fun.

well you said it.. and i am calm, sounds like you aren't very calm imo.

if it was that easy, every single itu racer would transition to 70.3 and 140.6 and crush souls. Again, you made the statement, but it's apples and oranges you're comparing.

2012-05-15 5:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
z2012 - 2012-05-15 6:52 PM

if it was that easy, every single itu racer would transition to 70.3 and 140.6 and crush souls. Again, you made the statement, but it's apples and oranges you're comparing.



And they don't?

And its not apples and oranges like the 400 and marathon you mentioned earlier. It is more like the 10,000m and marathon where you'll see athletes transition from the 10,000m after they've lost some top end speed to successful marathon running. Its not like these athletes are going from an anaerobic sport to an aerobic one - they are both very much endurance events.

Shane
2012-05-15 5:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

gsmacleod - 2012-05-15 5:03 PM
z2012 - 2012-05-15 6:52 PM if it was that easy, every single itu racer would transition to 70.3 and 140.6 and crush souls. Again, you made the statement, but it's apples and oranges you're comparing.
And they don't? And its not apples and oranges like the 400 and marathon you mentioned earlier. It is more like the 10,000m and marathon where you'll see athletes transition from the 10,000m after they've lost some top end speed to successful marathon running. Its not like these athletes are going from an anaerobic sport to an aerobic one - they are both very much endurance events. Shane

So, the top athletes win ITU.. and the same top athletes win 70.3 and 140.6 (not necessarily at the same time). How is this a good argument to say ITU vs. long distance makes ITU have superior pro talent?

Likewise, there are quite a few examples of ITU successful transitions to long course, but for every example of success, there are easily just as many failures (as in champion ITU, but never champion long course) and many that don't even do it.

This whole conversation stems from the statement of the talent pool not being of equal caliber when that's just an opinion. that is all.

2012-05-15 5:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
z2012 - 2012-05-15 7:11 PM

So, the top athletes win ITU.. and the same top athletes win 70.3 and 140.6 (not necessarily at the same time). How is this a good argument to say ITU vs. long distance makes ITU have superior pro talent?


Because often the top tier ITU athletes never make the transition to 70.3 and IM; instead, they race ITU as long as they can and then retire. Often those who transition to 70.3 and IM were second and third tier ITU who never enjoyed success at the highest levels.

Likewise, there are quite a few examples of ITU successful transitions to long course, but for every example of success, there are easily just as many failures (as in champion ITU, but never champion long course) and many that don't even do it.


I will give you that there are many who don't make the transition, but I would love to see the list of those who were failures at 70.3 and IM racing after they were done with ITU.

This whole conversation stems from the statement of the talent pool not being of equal caliber when that's just an opinion. that is all.



The talent pool at the ITU level is significantly deeper - there really is no dispute as far as this goes, even amongst the top athletes at both levels.

Shane
2012-05-15 6:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
It's also interesting to note that the ITU pro prize purse is significantly larger than WTC races.  My gut tells me that pro triathletes are not imune to the the general laws of economics...and that the top tier athletes will go where there is the most money to be won.


2012-05-15 6:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
ITU racers? Those guys are fags!
2012-05-15 8:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

tri808 - 2012-05-15 6:02 PM It's also interesting to note that the ITU pro prize purse is significantly larger than WTC races.  My gut tells me that pro triathletes are not imune to the the general laws of economics...and that the top tier athletes will go where there is the most money to be won.

I agree. Even where there isn't as much money, talent tends to go where the money is. And that's likely a big part of why ITU has more talent than the format. If non-drafting picks up bigger fields with more pay this will shift. It's unfortunate that the format has made it difficult to see how good those guys are except to very keen observers. Or at least difficult to show how good they are, as the media seems to have a lot to figure out with how best to show any type of triathlon and what's going on. It's improved quite a bit, but has a long way to go. I still don't like the ITU format (watching or participating), but have tremendous respect for their ability.

And Bryan, bahahaha!

2012-05-15 8:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

tri808 - 2012-05-15 6:02 PM It's also interesting to note that the ITU pro prize purse is significantly larger than WTC races.  My gut tells me that pro triathletes are not imune to the the general laws of economics...and that the top tier athletes will go where there is the most money to be won.

 

This is the point (although the opposite) that I was about to make. All the money is in Ironman. All of it. ITU is simply chump change. When you follow the money, you follow the talent. Is the pursuit track cyclist and better athlete than the Tour riders? If that were the case then the money...and then the talent would follow to track races. The ITU is full of speed no doubt, but that's an age and circumstance equation. These guys are fresh out of college swimming or CC and are loaded with speed...and no significant endurance. If ITU had better athletes then they would follow the money and start cleaning up at Kona. To date, how many ITU athletes have won Kona, which is the biggest race in our sport? 3. Mark Allen, Greg Welch and Macca. And 2 of those didn't win in the draft world. While there might be more prize money in ITU (probably depends on what you define ITU races to be) the advertising money isn't even remotely close. Last time we had this argument I picked up a magazine and found 27 advertisements with Ironman athletes, 1 ITU athlete and 1 from neither. Most ITU athletes needs federation help to pay bills and travel. Do well at the Ironman level and not even win and you are in Ford commercials. We watch ITU on the internet and we watch Ironman on NBC, and it wins Emmy's. Want a small logo on Crowie's jersey? 40 grand. and that doesn't even count the product deals like specialized. I could go on and on but I don't think it's even close. AND, even though I'm old and washed up, I'm the only one in this argument who speaks from first hand experience at both.

2012-05-15 8:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

bryancd - 2012-05-15 7:24 PM ITU racers? Those guys are fags!

What? You think IMSG makes you a tough guy?

2012-05-15 8:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

bryancd - 2012-05-15 6:24 PM ITU racers? Those guys are fags!

Well Mr. Dunn,I'm just here learning about ITU, havin some pizza.

I figure that if it's your time and it's my time, that makes it our time. And isn't it ok to have a little food on our time?



2012-05-15 8:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
very strange, there seems to be contradictory info in this thread.  So is the money in ITU or is it in WTC?  tj speaks from experience so I'd tend to think he knows what he's talking about, but where is the basis for ITU being where the money is?
2012-05-15 8:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
tjfry - 2012-05-15 7:32 PM

bryancd - 2012-05-15 6:24 PM ITU racers? Those guys are fags!

Well Mr. Dunn,I'm just here learning about ITU, havin some pizza.

I figure that if it's your time and it's my time, that makes it our time. And isn't it ok to have a little food on our time?



Hr. Hand is righteous, dude!
2012-05-15 9:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
z2012 - 2012-05-15 8:44 PMvery strange, there seems to be contradictory info in this thread.  So is the money in ITU or is it in WTC?  tj speaks from experience so I'd tend to think he knows what he's talking about, but where is the basis for ITU being where the money is?
Add up ITU series, grand final and points, you get about 2.2 million. Add up ironman races including kona and you get about 2.2 million. Throw in 70.3 races and wtc has more. Throw in the ITU farm league races and I have no clue.Now go open up a magazine.....
2012-05-16 12:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
FYI, for those racing Columbia this weekend you can race Matt this weekend to see how you personally stack up
2012-05-16 1:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
tjfry - 2012-05-15 8:24 PM

tri808 - 2012-05-15 6:02 PM It's also interesting to note that the ITU pro prize purse is significantly larger than WTC races.  My gut tells me that pro triathletes are not imune to the the general laws of economics...and that the top tier athletes will go where there is the most money to be won.

 

This is the point (although the opposite) that I was about to make. All the money is in Ironman. All of it. ITU is simply chump change. When you follow the money, you follow the talent. Is the pursuit track cyclist and better athlete than the Tour riders? If that were the case then the money...and then the talent would follow to track races. The ITU is full of speed no doubt, but that's an age and circumstance equation. These guys are fresh out of college swimming or CC and are loaded with speed...and no significant endurance. If ITU had better athletes then they would follow the money and start cleaning up at Kona. To date, how many ITU athletes have won Kona, which is the biggest race in our sport? 3. Mark Allen, Greg Welch and Macca. And 2 of those didn't win in the draft world. While there might be more prize money in ITU (probably depends on what you define ITU races to be) the advertising money isn't even remotely close. Last time we had this argument I picked up a magazine and found 27 advertisements with Ironman athletes, 1 ITU athlete and 1 from neither. Most ITU athletes needs federation help to pay bills and travel. Do well at the Ironman level and not even win and you are in Ford commercials. We watch ITU on the internet and we watch Ironman on NBC, and it wins Emmy's. Want a small logo on Crowie's jersey? 40 grand. and that doesn't even count the product deals like specialized. I could go on and on but I don't think it's even close. AND, even though I'm old and washed up, I'm the only one in this argument who speaks from first hand experience at both.

\

 

So school me....

My son is 14, racing as a 15 year old in Youth Elite.  He'll place in the top ten, in all likelihood,  in this year's ITU National Championship Youth Elite race on Aug. 10th.  In your opinion, what's his best path? He's already on a team with a nationally recognized coach.....if you were him (or less importantly, me) and had to do it over again......what?

I'm asking as a parent who is not "that" parent.  This is expensive.....I'm only in it because it supports his dream, I'm barely hanging on....as soon as he stops dreaming, I'm out....he's not likely to stop.

Thanks!



Edited by Left Brain 2012-05-16 1:15 AM


2012-05-16 7:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
tjfry - 2012-05-15 11:22 PM

Add up ITU series, grand final and points, you get about 2.2 million. Add up ironman races including kona and you get about 2.2 million. Throw in 70.3 races and wtc has more. Throw in the ITU farm league races and I have no clue.Now go open up a magazine.....


The ITU WTS has about 2.2 million in total elite prize money over 8 races and, unlike IM, an athlete could race all of these events (assuming they qualify). When you add in all the other events (cont cups, cont championships, world cups, world champs) with prize purses ranging from $5000 to $50000 and there is more prize money in prizes available to the athletes as the races tend to have larger prize purses and the athletes can race more frequently.

As to the advertising money; clearly this is mostly focused around 70.3 and IM athletes, especially in the US (Triathlon Magazine Canada also has lots of Simon Whitfield and Paula Findlay ads) but this seems to be confined to a very small number of athletes. I think the top tier of both circuits probably have similar incomes but from what I've been told, it is easier to have a decent income as a second or third tier elite on the ITU circuit as opposed to on the 70.3/IM circuit.

Shane
2012-05-16 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
tjfry - 2012-05-15 10:24 PM

If ITU had better athletes then they would follow the money and start cleaning up at Kona.


Or perhaps they could win all the WTS events including the championship and win $230,000 (including bonus money).

To date, how many ITU athletes have won Kona, which is the biggest race in our sport? 3. Mark Allen, Greg Welch and Macca. And 2 of those didn't win in the draft world.


On the men's side, beyond your list; Craig Alexander, Normann Stadler, Faris Al-Sultan, Peter Reid, Luc Van Leidre, Tim DeBoom.

While none of these guys were top notch ITU athletes, they all have at least a handful of draft legal starts (and finishes).

Shane
2012-05-16 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
Left Brain - 2012-05-16 3:00 AM

So school me....

My son is 14, racing as a 15 year old in Youth Elite.  He'll place in the top ten, in all likelihood,  in this year's ITU National Championship Youth Elite race on Aug. 10th.  In your opinion, what's his best path? He's already on a team with a nationally recognized coach.....if you were him (or less importantly, me) and had to do it over again......what?

I'm asking as a parent who is not "that" parent.  This is expensive.....I'm only in it because it supports his dream, I'm barely hanging on....as soon as he stops dreaming, I'm out....he's not likely to stop.

Thanks!



As long as you are able to support him and he wants to do it, I would suggest spending this year racing youth elite where possible and youth events where it is not. Then, transition to junior elite events and focus on gaining as much draft legal experience as possible (not sure where you are but there is also a junior series in Canada and also a provincial draft legal series in Quebec that could help him gain experience). Through these years he can develop and see if he has the talent and desire to continue with the sport at the elite level and whether he is more suited to draft legal or non-draft legal racing. If draft legal is what he wants, then he would pursue U23 racing opportunities and if non-draft legal is a better fit, then start with Oly distances and over a couple of years progress to 70.3 and eventually IM.

In addition, I would search out a junior development squad; while having a coach as a junior is useful, what is even more useful is having a coach who understands draft legal racing (IME this is rare in the US) and like minded athletes to train alongside. If in pursues elite racing after junior, there are a few U23 developmental programs and several elite squads (draft and non-draft) that are popping up across the US.

Shane
2012-05-16 10:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego
Left Brain - 2012-05-16 1:00 AM
tjfry - 2012-05-15 8:24 PM

tri808 - 2012-05-15 6:02 PM It's also interesting to note that the ITU pro prize purse is significantly larger than WTC races.  My gut tells me that pro triathletes are not imune to the the general laws of economics...and that the top tier athletes will go where there is the most money to be won.

 

This is the point (although the opposite) that I was about to make. All the money is in Ironman. All of it. ITU is simply chump change. When you follow the money, you follow the talent. Is the pursuit track cyclist and better athlete than the Tour riders? If that were the case then the money...and then the talent would follow to track races. The ITU is full of speed no doubt, but that's an age and circumstance equation. These guys are fresh out of college swimming or CC and are loaded with speed...and no significant endurance. If ITU had better athletes then they would follow the money and start cleaning up at Kona. To date, how many ITU athletes have won Kona, which is the biggest race in our sport? 3. Mark Allen, Greg Welch and Macca. And 2 of those didn't win in the draft world. While there might be more prize money in ITU (probably depends on what you define ITU races to be) the advertising money isn't even remotely close. Last time we had this argument I picked up a magazine and found 27 advertisements with Ironman athletes, 1 ITU athlete and 1 from neither. Most ITU athletes needs federation help to pay bills and travel. Do well at the Ironman level and not even win and you are in Ford commercials. We watch ITU on the internet and we watch Ironman on NBC, and it wins Emmy's. Want a small logo on Crowie's jersey? 40 grand. and that doesn't even count the product deals like specialized. I could go on and on but I don't think it's even close. AND, even though I'm old and washed up, I'm the only one in this argument who speaks from first hand experience at both.

\

 

So school me....

My son is 14, racing as a 15 year old in Youth Elite.  He'll place in the top ten, in all likelihood,  in this year's ITU National Championship Youth Elite race on Aug. 10th.  In your opinion, what's his best path? He's already on a team with a nationally recognized coach.....if you were him (or less importantly, me) and had to do it over again......what?

I'm asking as a parent who is not "that" parent.  This is expensive.....I'm only in it because it supports his dream, I'm barely hanging on....as soon as he stops dreaming, I'm out....he's not likely to stop.

Thanks!

He needs to go the ITU route. There's more federation support for that type of racing and a greater chance of success. Beyond that, if he's not in competitive swimming then he needs to yesterday. A 16-17 minute 1500 swim can be achieved by any number of competitive high school swimmers in any given region of the country. If he can build his swim to a point that he can get out with the first pack, learn some crit racing, then he's off the bike with the leaders. 30-31 minutes is screaming fast, but that's 5k speed for high school runners, so some proper work with the right people and he can be in the mix. There are many athletes who have done really well in the ITU series as teenagers or early twenties because of the speed that is developed at a young age. Besides all that, USA Triathlon has (or had, I don't keep up with it anymore) lots of programs to support this type of athlete. Place reasonably in a few races and you start getting support from USAT. Take it further and they will let you live and travel on their nickel.

Now compare that with Ironman. There's only 1 teenager that has ever done even remotely well at the 70.3 distance and none at Ironman (and he went on to win 7 Tours). Your son wouldn't stand a chance against Crowie and the gang at this point. Like the Tour de France, Ironman is something that you must prepare for years to become successful at. Took Mark 7 attempts. Took Macca 7 attempts. Rarely can someone crack the upper ranks in Ironman early on. Most become successful in there 30's (minus Hellrigel who was relatively young).

My advice would be to build the speed and skills through the proper channels where you get some government support (USAT) and then graduate to the longer distances to make some real money. Good Luck!

2012-05-16 10:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego

gsmacleod - 2012-05-16 7:19 AM
tjfry - 2012-05-15 11:22 PM Add up ITU series, grand final and points, you get about 2.2 million. Add up ironman races including kona and you get about 2.2 million. Throw in 70.3 races and wtc has more. Throw in the ITU farm league races and I have no clue.Now go open up a magazine.....
The ITU WTS has about 2.2 million in total elite prize money over 8 races and, unlike IM, an athlete could race all of these events (assuming they qualify). When you add in all the other events (cont cups, cont championships, world cups, world champs) with prize purses ranging from $5000 to $50000 and there is more prize money in prizes available to the athletes as the races tend to have larger prize purses and the athletes can race more frequently. As to the advertising money; clearly this is mostly focused around 70.3 and IM athletes, especially in the US (Triathlon Magazine Canada also has lots of Simon Whitfield and Paula Findlay ads) but this seems to be confined to a very small number of athletes. I think the top tier of both circuits probably have similar incomes but from what I've been told, it is easier to have a decent income as a second or third tier elite on the ITU circuit as opposed to on the 70.3/IM circuit. Shane

My point was that prize money is small and about the same for both. Only a few can make a living on prize money alone, as after about 4th or 5th, it's just covering travel expenses. Most ITU athletes need federation help to travel and live. The money is in the sponsors and appearance fees. The USA doesn't care about ITU and USA is 80% of the world market in triathlon consumption. That's why I said that Ironman has ALL THE MONEY. All of it. Most people in the sport have no clue what a Brownlee is. Everyone knows Chrissie and Macca. Even my neighbors who just golf.



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