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2012-05-21 8:21 AM

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Subject: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Hi All

I've been asking for help with my swimming for a couple months and I finally have a swim video to show how slow I am! My fastest 100m has been 2:05 and over 500m I'm closer to 2:12 - 2:13/100m.

Any feedback is welcome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfgqjX8n9tg&feature=youtu.be


2012-05-21 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

I'll play along here.  

All together your swim does not look horrible.  A few things I notice that could help a bit are the following:

1. When you breath to the right side you seem to loop UP and not parallel with the water.  Don't over rotate when breathing.

2. When both of your hands enter the water you are to close to your center line and head.  Enter straight out in front of your shoulder.  Think full straight arm extension.  

3. Of course pay closer attention to you pull from the time your hands enter the water.  Fingertips down to the bottom of the pool and get your elbows up.  

Otherwise I think it's time if your not already doing so...to start working harder in the pool.  Pull together some challenging swim sets, establish your base 100 time for say a set of 10 X 100's and get at it.  Give your self about 15-20s rest and challenge yourself in the water 3-5 times a week.  

Good luck.  

2012-05-21 9:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
I'm in no position to offer much here, because I'm so slow myself. Two things I notice right off the bat, but someone may tell you otherwise (cause I'm no expert)

1. Head down.
2. are you using a big scissor kick to rotate you for your breath? hard to tell, but something with a drag looks like it's happening there, maybe a flexed foot or something.
2012-05-21 9:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
I think you could benefit from paying more attention to your pull-through. I noticed that on some strokes you did better than others on that, so it may just be a matter of concentrating on it. This page is a good resource, also you could add in some drills to focus on catch and pull. I like the closed fist drill and the thumb-to-thigh drill.
2012-05-21 10:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Is this a full speed video? Kinda hard to tell. If so...your stroke *efficiency* looks pretty good, but your stroke rate looks like it could increase a little. Balance looks ok, roll looks good to me..Without being able to see underwater, it doesn't look like anything more sinister than just needing to swim more and increase strength! Pull with more strength, move water faster...not much more scientific than that.
2012-05-21 10:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

fl0ridagirl - 2012-05-21 10:42 PM I think you could benefit from paying more attention to your pull-through. I noticed that on some strokes you did better than others on that, so it may just be a matter of concentrating on it. This page is a good resource, also you could add in some drills to focus on catch and pull. I like the closed fist drill and the thumb-to-thigh drill.

Page you linked is indeed an excellent resource and I agree this is the main thing the OP needs to work on: catch and pull.

Closed-fist drill can be helpful.

I have to disagree on the pull-through (or extended push). It's another long-held swimming myth that's been debunked. (Actually, I don't know that it's long-held, just a myth). There's not enough propulsion in that last phase to be worth it; better to get your hand out around the hip and back out to get back quickly to another stroke. Logically as well (and you can see this in the diagram of "correct" pull-through in the thumb-to-thigh drill) ... if you are keeping your hand in the water so long that it has a chance of going flat or even a fair bit off vertical, you are pushing water UP (and therefore your body DOWN instead of forward).



2012-05-21 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

You have good body position in the water (nice, straight, balanced). I encourage you to watch your video frame by frame. You'll likely see what many of us have pointed out and also for yourself things you want to work on.

Here's what I see your main area to work on is:

1. Pull. Most of the time your arms are pulling straight going through the water.

Here's a thought-analogy (or even try it): Stand in the water facing the edge of the pool at a shallow end. Put your arms straight out, palms on the deck. Now pull yourself out of the water, using that position.

What do you mean, you can't do it?

Exactly.

Now stand closer and bend your elbows. Nice 90-degree bend. Now can you get your body out of the water as far as your arms will allow?

The straight-arm is exactly what you are doing with your swim stroke. Very little power there and horrible strain on the shoulder. The bent-elbow is what you WANT to do with your swim stroke.

Let me give you an analogy: as you reach your arm out to begin the stroke, pretend you are sliding it across the top of a square package. In order to pull yourself across the top of that package using your arm, as soon as your elbow gets to the front of the package, you must bend it 90 degrees so that your forearm and palm are flat against the front. Then using your arm as a unit, press the box backward toward your feet in order to move your entire body forward.

Try that first. Focus on that first. Don't worry about the rest of it; whatever doesn't get fixed by practicing this (and adding some yardage and frequency if possible) is easily fixed later.

Do this one arm at a time at first. Down the pool right arm; back left arm (or vice versa). Once you feel like you really have that down and are surging forward and "feeling it" (if not a teeny bit sore) along the back of the shoulder and arms like you weren't before, try a somewhat-catch-up drill ...

Same thing, but alternate arms. Once you feel like you really have that down, smooth, beautiful, surge surge surge ... then you're ready to try swimming it more naturally, not waiting for one hand to nearly catch up to the other. If you feel stymied, go back to pseudo-catch-up. If that still feels awkward again after a bit of practice, go back to one arm at a time down the lane.

Remember, even if it feels all wrong or you think you're doing it wrong, no matter what, you are building a) strength b) water feel and c) endurance. These are critical to be able to take more technique drills on board and integrate them into a whole stroke.

 2. You're overreaching on getting your arm forward to begin the catch/pull, and especially with the right hand crossing the center line (think of a line splitting your body into right and left halves). Try thinking of entering your hands at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock. (That is an exaggeration but if you think of it that way, you'll probably get it just right).

3. Slight over-rotation when breathing (can't recall which side). You should be able to see the wall, not the ceiling.

2012-05-21 11:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Two things jump out at me.  One, it looks like you are over-rotating on your breathing.  You should breathe from the trough of water created as your breathing side arm sweeps back.  This requires that your nose only gets to even with the water (ie, one eye in the water when you breathe).  Second, it looks like your pull is outside of your body.  Try moving your hand in so that on your pull your hand sweeps under your midline.
2012-05-21 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Good advice from TriAya from my perspective. One thing that really helped me get sub 2:00 at long distances is to focus on stroke mechanics and keeping in mind that with every stroke (catch/pull) it must have a purpose (in pulling yourself forward) otherwise it's just wasted energy.
2012-05-21 11:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

For what I can see it seems there are two things to work at:

Inefficient kick, your legs fall down and drag.

Second, work on your hand position when pulling through the water. Try using paddles, most come with a rubber strap for the wrist and another for your middle finger. Remove the one over the wrist, you're pulling wrong through the water the paddle will fall off. With the paddles you can easily feel the difference when changing hand position.

Do drills practising your kick and stroke separately using pull buoy and a board.

If you can, get hold of a camera that can record underwater too.

BR, Erik

2012-05-21 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

You look fine....just swim harder...ie more aggressively.

There is nothing anyone is going to tell you, having to do with technique, that is really going to speed you up all that much. Sure, there are things you could improve to speed up a tiny bit...such as the things gadzooks mentioned....but the real gains will come from just simply pulling/pushing more water, quicker.



2012-05-21 1:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Overall I like your timing and relaxation. you don't look stressed at all. but there area few fundamental things I would suggest working on, which will make everything suggested above easier.

You have a few "energy leaks" in your body position, and some biomechanical things that will make swimming easier for you.

First there is a lot of tension in the back of the neck...you keep your head held high, which creates more drag, creates tension in the upper back and shoulders and tends to make hips sink. This high-held-head position is carried right into your breathing as well resulting in your head "tipping back" as you take a breath...the crown of your head is pointing diagnoally across the lane with each breath, then coming back to midline. This is basically creating a 8lb pendulum weight at the front of your body. This movement side to side is carried through the body as well resulting in some hip swaying which is worse on your breathing strokes.

Your extension forward is quite good, however if you look at the matching recovery how the elbow gets "picked up" out of the water and starts it's movement towards your spine...this is tipping you too far off balance, and again creating tension in the upper back & shoulder area and stiffening the recovery element.

Overall this is what I would suggest right now:

1) Release head into the water, neutral position. Focus on keeping head still while stroking, and when breathing, rotate the head while still letting the neck muscles remain relaxed with head supported by the water. Minimize or eliminate the tendency of hte head to tilt back when breathing.

2) Doing #1 will bring the entire upper body down into the water a little bit more which will allow you to swim with a solid core, rather than an arched back. Focus on swimming with a slight pelvic tuck to connect the ribs/upper body movement with the hip movement which will allow you to let your hips drive propulsion as you extend forward. With a solid core, you can spear forward in a streamlined position, rather than letting the body become slightly curved like a banana shape (more prominent I think when right arm spears forward).

3) Recover with a wide elbow swing away from the body on a track wide of your bodyline. Currently you are picking the elbow up out of the water and it's first momentum is coming towards your spine/towards yoru midline. This is contributing to overrotation and a wide kick for stabilization. Instead, swing the elbow away from the body and directly forward toward the direction you are swimming.

These things will minimize energy leaks, and take your current stroke and allow you to move forward through the water with much more ease. At THAT point, starting to think about propulsion would be the next step.
2012-05-21 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

You look fine.  Your logs are up to date, your putting in a decent amount of time. . . do you have a masters club nearby?  How do you structure your work outs?  Do you focus on sets or is it a get in the pool and go?

 

2012-05-21 7:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Thanks everyone for the input!

To answer a few of the questions ... yes it is a full speed video! That comment made me laugh as my friend who filmed it told me I look like my swim stroke is too easy and I need to increase my stroke rate. I even thought it looked like slow mo. My suggestion for anyone looking to improve their swimming is to take a video and watch what you really look like!

I've spent the last few months doing drills, drills and more drills to try to get as efficient as I can so that when I increase my stroke rate I'm not splashing around in the water going nowhere. Looks like it might be time to try to swim faster. My typical workout is 1500m to 2000m with a 500m warm up (I have my first olympic tri this weekend, so it's more of a confidence thing) and then drills for another 700 - 1000m and then the rest being 100m (slow!) intervals. Now that I'm feeling more confident in the water, I'll be looking to join a masters club in the offseason (which for me starts on Monday).

I thought the most comments would be about my weak pull and I'm struggling to figure out how to fix that. I have ordered some paddles and will give that a go. I guess I was more concerned that it was completely wrong and with some of the comments I'm struggling to wonder how to fix it.

When watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other?

ETA: lucky for me that swimsmooth website is out of Perth and I've signed up for a one on one session. Although they have a bit of a wait list. I couldn't get in until October!






Edited by ssshaunaaa 2012-05-21 7:35 PM
2012-05-21 8:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-21 5:34 PM Thanks everyone for the input! To answer a few of the questions ... yes it is a full speed video! That comment made me laugh as my friend who filmed it told me I look like my swim stroke is too easy and I need to increase my stroke rate. I even thought it looked like slow mo. My suggestion for anyone looking to improve their swimming is to take a video and watch what you really look like! I've spent the last few months doing drills, drills and more drills to try to get as efficient as I can so that when I increase my stroke rate I'm not splashing around in the water going nowhere. Looks like it might be time to try to swim faster. My typical workout is 1500m to 2000m with a 500m warm up (I have my first olympic tri this weekend, so it's more of a confidence thing) and then drills for another 700 - 1000m and then the rest being 100m (slow!) intervals. Now that I'm feeling more confident in the water, I'll be looking to join a masters club in the offseason (which for me starts on Monday). I thought the most comments would be about my weak pull and I'm struggling to figure out how to fix that. I have ordered some paddles and will give that a go. I guess I was more concerned that it was completely wrong and with some of the comments I'm struggling to wonder how to fix it. When watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other? ETA: lucky for me that swimsmooth website is out of Perth and I've signed up for a one on one session. Although they have a bit of a wait list. I couldn't get in until October!

I use an "S" pull when swimming.  It's the way I was taught many years ago.  Not sure what the modern day swim guru's say about it - but it works for me.  

I agree with the above advice...all good pointers to work on.  

I would prioritize the list as follows:

  1. Work on balance as this is crucial to a good stroke. 
  2. Work on getting the head down and creating less resistance
  3. Then I would work on more advanced techniques like an "S" pull (it used to only be taught to advanced swimmers)
  4. Finish up with strength and endurance so you can increase your stroke rate and your speed.  

You will see gains at all the steps along the way, but an increased stroke rate without good mechanics will waste a lot of energy.  

Good luck.  

2012-05-21 8:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Get a tempo trainer as you start to work on your stroke rate. It will keep you honest.


2012-05-21 9:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-21 8:34 PM  When watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other?

Here is a good video about that: http://youtu.be/AKB-Cb_4xfk?t=40s



Edited by fl0ridagirl 2012-05-21 9:09 PM
2012-05-22 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-22 2:34 AM I have ordered some paddles and will give that a go. I guess I was more concerned that it was completely wrong and with some of the comments I'm struggling to wonder how to fix it.

With paddles you build strength and can practice your stroke. I have found I don't swim faster with paddles, most often actually slower, but stroke count obviously go down; in my case 8-9/25m with paddles, 9-10 without.

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-22 2:34 AMWhen watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other?

I was always told to draw a keyhole, then later as a teenager, the woman of my dreams Tongue out It makes the path of your hand longer so you get a longer stroke. Same thing in butterfly btw.

BR, Erik

2012-05-22 11:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
fl0ridagirl - 2012-05-22 9:09 AM

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-21 8:34 PM  When watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other?

Here is a good video about that: http://youtu.be/AKB-Cb_4xfk?t=40s

Good video indeed. A little technical, but worth the watch.

S-shape pull is antiquated. It doesn't work particularly well. I've also noticed that people who try to do it (as learners, purposefully) almost always wind up angling their hands toward and away from their midline, and that is the OPPOSITE of what you want to do (which is keep the hand vertical in the water and going back toward your feet). Angling your hand in/out makes your body move from side to side, not forward.

2012-05-22 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
erik.norgaard - 2012-05-22 10:19 AM

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-22 2:34 AM I have ordered some paddles and will give that a go. I guess I was more concerned that it was completely wrong and with some of the comments I'm struggling to wonder how to fix it.

With paddles you build strength and can practice your stroke. I have found I don't swim faster with paddles, most often actually slower, but stroke count obviously go down; in my case 8-9/25m with paddles, 9-10 without.

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-22 2:34 AMWhen watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other?

I was always told to draw a keyhole, then later as a teenager, the woman of my dreams Tongue out It makes the path of your hand longer so you get a longer stroke. Same thing in butterfly btw.

BR, Erik



The S-shape was promoted by Doc Counsilman when viewing swimmers like Mark Spitz underwater. He noted the path of the stroke and assumed (incorrectly) that the swimmers were deliberately swimming that way. The S-shaped stroke is no longer taught, but it's legacy remains.

It assumes that a significant amount of forward propulsion comes from an airfoil effect of the hand moving through the water known as "lift", in the same way that an airplane creates lift. However, it's since been show that any actual lift component of forward movement is negligible and TRYING to create an S-pull is simply wasting time that the hand could be anchored in the water as your body moves forward.

Instead, simply think of anchoring your hand in the water, trapping water behind the hand & forearm, and shifting yoru body weight past it.
2012-05-22 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

ssshaunaaa - 2012-05-22 7:34 AM Thanks everyone for the input! To answer a few of the questions ... yes it is a full speed video! That comment made me laugh as my friend who filmed it told me I look like my swim stroke is too easy and I need to increase my stroke rate. I even thought it looked like slow mo. My suggestion for anyone looking to improve their swimming is to take a video and watch what you really look like! I've spent the last few months doing drills, drills and more drills to try to get as efficient as I can so that when I increase my stroke rate I'm not splashing around in the water going nowhere. Looks like it might be time to try to swim faster. My typical workout is 1500m to 2000m with a 500m warm up (I have my first olympic tri this weekend, so it's more of a confidence thing) and then drills for another 700 - 1000m and then the rest being 100m (slow!) intervals. Now that I'm feeling more confident in the water, I'll be looking to join a masters club in the offseason (which for me starts on Monday). I thought the most comments would be about my weak pull and I'm struggling to figure out how to fix that. I have ordered some paddles and will give that a go. I guess I was more concerned that it was completely wrong and with some of the comments I'm struggling to wonder how to fix it. When watching people in nearby lanes swimming they seem to do a S-type curve and I've been trying to pull with a bent elbowstraight back with no curve. Is one way more ideal than the other? ETA: lucky for me that swimsmooth website is out of Perth and I've signed up for a one on one session. Although they have a bit of a wait list. I couldn't get in until October!

Perth I'll be coming through in December on my way to Busso for the Ironman, maybe we can have a BT get together as there are several other wonderful BTers in Perth!

I think you're okay for paddles (the worse the swimmer the less I advocate it as they can cause significant shoulder strain), but be cautious with them--couple hundred meters worth of drills to begin with and you can build up from there a bit each week. Joining a masters squad is an EXCELLENT idea as you'll be using what I call "pool toys" under the direction of a coach.

I would also not advocate using a kickboard at all ... it doesn't help with "water feel" or balance and puts a really unnatural arch in the back. Swim balance is a side-to-side proposition, not a front-to-back one.



2012-05-22 11:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
TriAya - 2012-05-22 10:36 AM

I think you're okay for paddles (the worse the swimmer the less I advocate it as they can cause significant shoulder strain), but be cautious with them--couple hundred meters worth of drills to begin with and you can build up from there a bit each week. Joining a masters squad is an EXCELLENT idea as you'll be using what I call "pool toys" under the direction of a coach.

I would also not advocate using a kickboard at all ... it doesn't help with "water feel" or balance and puts a really unnatural arch in the back. Swim balance is a side-to-side proposition, not a front-to-back one.



Yanti I agree with most of what you write...but front to back balance is very much a vital aspect of good swimming. There are two types of balance...front to back (hips/shoulders & Head parallel with the water surface) and side-to-side (extended arm on a wide track in front of the shoulder & recovering arm swinging to the side). If you have both front to back and side to side balance you've got 70% of good swimming licked.
2012-05-22 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
AdventureBear - 2012-05-22 11:44 PM
TriAya - 2012-05-22 10:36 AM

I think you're okay for paddles (the worse the swimmer the less I advocate it as they can cause significant shoulder strain), but be cautious with them--couple hundred meters worth of drills to begin with and you can build up from there a bit each week. Joining a masters squad is an EXCELLENT idea as you'll be using what I call "pool toys" under the direction of a coach.

I would also not advocate using a kickboard at all ... it doesn't help with "water feel" or balance and puts a really unnatural arch in the back. Swim balance is a side-to-side proposition, not a front-to-back one.

Yanti I agree with most of what you write...but front to back balance is very much a vital aspect of good swimming. There are two types of balance...front to back (hips/shoulders & Head parallel with the water surface) and side-to-side (extended arm on a wide track in front of the shoulder & recovering arm swinging to the side). If you have both front to back and side to side balance you've got 70% of good swimming licked.

Yes. You're entirely correct. I had my steam hat on regarding the use of kickboards. In my head, I was trying to say that using a kickboard DOESN'T help front-to-back balance, but it came out all wrong.

2012-05-22 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video

TriAya and AdventureBear - I respect both of your inputs on the swimming threads I have read.  You both are clearly very well versed in analyzing, correcting and teaching proper swimming technique.  I am an "old school" swimmer I suppose.  I grew up in a pool in the 80's and then didn't swim for 20 years after H.S.  Clearly swim technique has changed in 20 years.  

I have a question for both of you about the "S" pull.  (this is not a thread jack as your answer should help the OP).  

You both say it is antiquated or was proven not that helpful, but is it bad if done properly?  Do you lose any energy or propulsion doing an "S" pull?  Do you recommend that all us old timers who were taught an S pull quite immediately?

It is how I have been swimming forever.  I don't turn my hand, and I just do a small "S" underwater.  I feel like it gives me a bit more of a pull with each stroke and it seems as though it would be a better pull than just pulling straight back.  I'll have to try no "S" pull on my swim tonight and see how it affects my times in the 50 and 100 yards.  

2012-05-22 12:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Help me swim faster! Swim critique video
Muskrat37 - 2012-05-22 10:52 AM

TriAya and AdventureBear - I respect both of your inputs on the swimming threads I have read.  You both are clearly very well versed in analyzing, correcting and teaching proper swimming technique.  I am an "old school" swimmer I suppose.  I grew up in a pool in the 80's and then didn't swim for 20 years after H.S.  Clearly swim technique has changed in 20 years.  

I have a question for both of you about the "S" pull.  (this is not a thread jack as your answer should help the OP).  

You both say it is antiquated or was proven not that helpful, but is it bad if done properly?  Do you lose any energy or propulsion doing an "S" pull?  Do you recommend that all us old timers who were taught an S pull quite immediately?

It is how I have been swimming forever.  I don't turn my hand, and I just do a small "S" underwater.  I feel like it gives me a bit more of a pull with each stroke and it seems as though it would be a better pull than just pulling straight back.  I'll have to try no "S" pull on my swim tonight and see how it affects my times in the 50 and 100 yards.  



I'll just say that I think there is always room for everyone to improve their stroke...even Phelps, Lochte, Evans, etc.

Rather than thinking of a "straight" pull back, think of simply anchoring your hand on a piece of water real-estate...then don't let that real estate get out from behind your hand. Keep it htere and press 'gently' without disturbing the water behind your hand...make it solid.

Just see what that feels like. When you video anyone, you can see an S shaped pattern, but a lot of it is due to body rotation changing the vector a little bit. The thing is that when you TRY to make an S-shape, it's typically overdone and you lose a little potential. When you don't try...it still happens, but more of your stroke can go into moving water forward. You'll likely feel more pressure when you do this and if you try to keep the same stroke rate, find that you get more fatigued...therefor you might need to slow down your tempo...yet still swim the same speed. Try it slowly at first.

Of course, if you watch phelps underwater, he's got a pretty pronounced S-Pull as well so what do I know?




Edited by AdventureBear 2012-05-22 12:10 PM
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