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2012-05-23 9:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
I live to train, not train to live.


2012-05-23 10:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Never let facts get in the way of your opinions. Good rebuttal. I just posted a thread about my trip to the cardiologist. Both he, the resident who was working with him, and I ran the Philly Marathon last year, where two people died. We had a whole discussion about statistics of death during marathons versus the general population. It's all about visibility, a runner dying during a marathon or triathlon winds up on network TV, someone dying of lifestyle-related illness winds up on the obituary page of the local newspaper.
2012-05-23 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
TriAya - 2012-05-23 1:42 AM

I have heard this from highly intelligent and educated individuals (in sciences and medicine) as well. I have heard the exact opposite from far more highly intelligent and educated individuals throughout academic disciplines

But I, too, asked--where's the beef? Show me the money. Etc. They couldn't.

There is some evidence that professional cyclists have somewhat shorter lifespans and higher incidence of certain kinds of heart problems than other athletes (not the general population), but a lot of that evidence is from decades prior when, ah, PED use was less controlled.

I might agree that some of the endurance athletes on the tip of the pointy end of the spear aren't that healthy. But we're talking about an extreme subset of an extreme subset who are constantly riding the ragged edge of squeezing that last bit of performance out and weight off.

I did concede that point.  But for the MOP majority of us, endurance sports is the fountain of youth.

2012-05-23 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-23 10:21 AM Never let facts get in the way of your opinions. Good rebuttal. I just posted a thread about my trip to the cardiologist. Both he, the resident who was working with him, and I ran the Philly Marathon last year, where two people died. We had a whole discussion about statistics of death during marathons versus the general population. It's all about visibility, a runner dying during a marathon or triathlon winds up on network TV, someone dying of lifestyle-related illness winds up on the obituary page of the local newspaper.

Exactly.  How many people died in Philadelphia on that same day in their lazyboys, in the hospital, or nursing home?

2012-05-23 10:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

I recall a statistic about the life expectancy of pro cyclists, and how they seldom survived their 50's. Of course, there are exceptions. Merckx is still robust and fit. Even Anquetil lived to an advanced age.

I think exercise is good for you, endurance sports goes beyond healthy exercise. Endurance sports done without adequate preparation and adaption- even worse. It puts stresses on your body you aren't optimally prepared for.

But we still do it. And we still drink alcohol, use excessive prescription and recreational drugs, have unprotected sex with strangers, drive while talking on the cell phone and don't visit our physcian for pre-emptive health checks.

The only thing wrong with convincing ourselves that endurance sports is "good for us" is that we may be lying to ourselves. Another common and frequently unfavorable human frailty...

Cats however... cats are good:

2012-05-23 10:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Some doctors are idiots.  They want people fat and out of shape to keep them in business. Never forget that medicine is a business.


2012-05-23 10:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

Jtiger - 2012-05-23 11:39 AM Some doctors are idiots.  They want people fat and out of shape to keep them in business. Never forget that medicine is a business.

Unfortunately many doctors are also overweight. I believe it's called 'do as I say, not as I do.'

2012-05-23 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

wannabefaster - 2012-05-23 2:59 PM Almost everyone that I see getting a knee replacement is 50-200 lbs overweight and has worn their knees out from carrying around all those extra pounds. In a year my hospital might do 1000 knee replacements and I bet less than 5 of them are in former distance runners (I don't have actual statistics but this is just an observers educated guess on numbers)

OK, not that I doubt your conclusion is right, but absolute numbers must be weighed against proportion of population in each category. How many overweight/obese people are there per knee operation of same? how many long distance runners are there per knee operation of same?

BR

2012-05-23 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-23 10:35 AM

I recall a statistic about the life expectancy of pro cyclists, and how they seldom survived their 50's. Of course, there are exceptions. Merckx is still robust and fit. Even Anquetil lived to an advanced age.

I think exercise is good for you, endurance sports goes beyond healthy exercise. Endurance sports done without adequate preparation and adaption- even worse. It puts stresses on your body you aren't optimally prepared for.

But we still do it. And we still drink alcohol, use excessive prescription and recreational drugs, have unprotected sex with strangers, drive while talking on the cell phone and don't visit our physcian for pre-emptive health checks.

The only thing wrong with convincing ourselves that endurance sports is "good for us" is that we may be lying to ourselves. Another common and frequently unfavorable human frailty...

Cats however... cats are good:

I crossed off the parts that I am not a part of the "we".

2012-05-23 10:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

wannabefaster - 2012-05-23 8:59 AM The other one that kills me is the, "you are going to need a knee replacement if you keep running like this." I get this from many people in health care. My response is always the same: I ask, "how many knee replacements do we do in skinny marathon runners?" The answer is, very few. Almost everyone that I see getting a knee replacement is 50-200 lbs overweight and has worn their knees out from carrying around all those extra pounds. In a year my hospital might do 1000 knee replacements and I bet less than 5 of them are in former distance runners (I don't have actual statistics but this is just an observers educated guess on numbers)

Even if that were true. I'd prefer a knee replacement to a heart transplant.

2012-05-23 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

Jtiger - 2012-05-23 11:39 AM Some doctors are idiots.  They want people fat and out of shape to keep them in business. Never forget that medicine is a business.

And an extremely profitable one.



2012-05-23 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

Jtiger - 2012-05-23 11:39 AM Some doctors are idiots.  They want people fat and out of shape to keep them in business. Never forget that medicine is a business.

ding ding ding. this is why they will give you a pill to take for the rest of your life to counteract a symptom instead of fixing the problem.

2012-05-23 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray
They built you a temple and locked you away
But they never told you the price that you pay,
Things that you might have done...
Only the good die young
That's what I said
Only the good die young

2012-05-23 11:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

As mentioned previously, the evidence is conflicting and often "uncontrolled" for various other risk factors that influence the reults and their applicability to everyone else.  What is their lifestyle after athletics is over? depression and drug abuse for passing the glory days??? There is also the idea that many folks trade one healthy aspect for a non-healthy one.  i.e. since i exercise, i can keep drinking alcohol more then I should.  There was a notable study published a few months back that showed people who use multivitamin products have a higher risk of death then those who don't.  A plausable argument against the study was that many people feel somewhat protected by the vitamins and indulge more in 'risky' lifestyle choices.

It is conceivable that athletes at the very top of the sports world push their bodies so hard that they maybe wearing down the machine prematurely, but even if it was conclusively known would they change?  For the rest of us, as mentioned, even if it doesn't "add years to my life" I think it adds "life to my years".  

What's that quote about not peacefully passing away but sliding into death sidewise?

-mike

2012-05-23 11:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

bryancd - 2012-05-23 11:58 AM Well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray They built you a temple and locked you away But they never told you the price that you pay, Things that you might have done... Only the good die young That's what I said Only the good die young

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints/The sinners are much more fun"

2012-05-23 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

bryancd - 2012-05-23 8:58 AM Well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray They built you a temple and locked you away But they never told you the price that you pay, Things that you might have done... Only the good die young That's what I said Only the good die young

Not sure how Billy Joel trying to get in the pants of a Catholic girl fits in here-

but your post brought up fond memories of high school.



2012-05-23 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
morey000 - 2012-05-23 10:19 AM

bryancd - 2012-05-23 8:58 AM Well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray They built you a temple and locked you away But they never told you the price that you pay, Things that you might have done... Only the good die young That's what I said Only the good die young

Not sure how Billy Joel trying to get in the pants of a Catholic girl fits in here-

but your post brought up fond memories of high school.



Me as well....although the verse "But they never told you the price that you pay, Things that you might have done... " seemed somewhat apt.
2012-05-23 11:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

At least we'll look good, healthy, and fit in the coffin.

 

Live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse.

2012-05-23 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
been looking into this "endurance athletes die young" thing, and it seems atrial fibrillation is a real area where endurance athlete are more prevalent to suffer from it.  with a large heart and low resting pulse being a warning sign of high risk.  kind of scary, but i enjoy being active; all.the.time.
2012-05-23 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

As a firefigter, I have been on a lot of code blues (deaths) of all ages. Focusing on ages 40+, I cannot recall one of of them that included a past medical or lifestyle history of being an endurance athlete or that type of lifestyle being ruled as the leading factor in their death. I personally have witnessed the complete opposite.

I'm not saying they're wrong, but they're certainly not 100% right either. I would like to see statistical data on their claims, to include family medical history. Since the Surgeon General is the leading spokesperson on health, maybe she can provide insight if requested.



Edited by Tri-Fire 2012-05-23 12:00 PM
2012-05-23 11:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

wannabefaster - 2012-05-23 8:59 AM The other one that kills me is the, "you are going to need a knee replacement if you keep running like this." I get this from many people in health care. My response is always the same: I ask, "how many knee replacements do we do in skinny marathon runners?" The answer is, very few. Almost everyone that I see getting a knee replacement is 50-200 lbs overweight and has worn their knees out from carrying around all those extra pounds. In a year my hospital might do 1000 knee replacements and I bet less than 5 of them are in former distance runners (I don't have actual statistics but this is just an observers educated guess on numbers)

 

Actually, the average age for total knee arthroplasty is dropping.  There are more and more younger active individuals needing TKA.  Not saying that their activity level is the cause of it though, and there's still debate as to the contributions of mechanical loading and/or inflammatory processes etc with regards to knee OA.

Regarding the OP, I think it depends who you talk to.  A cardiologist who I respect highly and is very sharp is anti marathon specifically because of the cardiomyopathies associated with endurance sports.  Then again, these cardiomyopathies have been shown to be reversible and devoid of pathologic 'markers', unlike those associated with congestive heart failure.  

Then you get into the health benefits of exercise, and frankly I suspect few of those studies look at the extremes of exercise.  I actually wouldn't be surprised if, physiologically, training for an ironman was well into the realm of diminishing returns with respect to health benefits.  That wouldn't be any fun, and I imagine that's where psychiatric health comes into play for triathletes. 

I also question what those physicians were thinking about with regards to extreme sports.  There are plenty of 'extreme' sports that I wouldn't be surprised if they were associated with shorter lifespan, but I wouldn't really consider ironman and ultras in that category.



2012-05-23 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Well I tend to agree with them. Endurance athletes do die young, we just do it much much later in life than sedentary people .
2012-05-23 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

If you have ever spoke to a person in the moments before they die the people who tend to transition peacefully are the ones who have led a full life. They took chances, made mistakes. They leave without regret of having missed something. Sometimes they are even tired from all they have done and seem to embrace the idea of a departure. They slip away. When you're left you often feel lonely- as if accompanying them would have been better.

When you accompany a person who is dying whose life has been cut short, thir eyes are filled with terror and panic and they do not leave easily. They fight and struggle, eventually exhausting themselves and succumbing to death in a less than gentle manner. It is frightening to see. when they die you (I...) tend to leave with fear of death at the forefront of your mind. You don't want to be that- to die that way. So you live the heck out of life, throttle pegged, every opportunity taken in fear that you may not go peacefully, but in paniced gasps trying to strike bargains for one more minute, hour, day...

Better to do stuff now then regret it while you are staring at a hospital ceiling plugged up with tubes when your choice has been removed. Along with your dignity.

 

2012-05-23 4:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!
Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-23 12:16 PM

If you have ever spoke to a person in the moments before they die the people who tend to transition peacefully are the ones who have led a full life. They took chances, made mistakes. They leave without regret of having missed something. Sometimes they are even tired from all they have done and seem to embrace the idea of a departure. They slip away. When you're left you often feel lonely- as if accompanying them would have been better.

When you accompany a person who is dying whose life has been cut short, thir eyes are filled with terror and panic and they do not leave easily. They fight and struggle, eventually exhausting themselves and succumbing to death in a less than gentle manner. It is frightening to see. when they die you (I...) tend to leave with fear of death at the forefront of your mind. You don't want to be that- to die that way. So you live the heck out of life, throttle pegged, every opportunity taken in fear that you may not go peacefully, but in paniced gasps trying to strike bargains for one more minute, hour, day...

Better to do stuff now then regret it while you are staring at a hospital ceiling plugged up with tubes when your choice has been removed. Along with your dignity.

 

 

Wow Tom, that's deep. Very accurate but hard hitting. 

 

I can't answer for anyone but myself but I know that when I am near completion of a hard three-week cycle my body is stressed and very likely immunosuppressed which leaves you vulnerable. 

 

2012-05-23 7:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Endurance athletes die young!

Here's an excerpt from a recent Sweatscience posting.  Of course I cherry pick the articles that conform to my existing beliefs - isn't that what the Internet is for?

Link to the whole article.

Excerpt....

Do ultra-endurance athletes live longer or shorter lives than the general population?

Just like NFL players, Tour de France riders live significantly longer than the general population despite their extreme exertions:

Researchers at the University of Valencia in Spain collected birth and death data on 834 cyclists who rode in the Tour between 1930 and 1964, representing the majority of competitors from France, Italy and Belgium during those years. They compared the data to average figures for people born in those countries in the relevant years, publishing the results in the International Journal of Sports Medicine. The finding: Median age of death was 73.5 years for the controls compared to 81.5 years for the cyclists, and the mean lifespan was 17 per cent longer for the cyclists.

Now, that doesn't rule out the possibility of heart effects. It could be that endurance cycling has many, many positive health effects (or lifestyle correlations) that prolong lifespan by, say, 20%, but also slightly raises your risk of heart attack so that the overall increase in lifespan is only 17 percent. This study isn't able to say for sure either way.

But at a certain point, the debate becomes purely academic. The only thing that really matters is the net effect -- and the Tour de France study shows that, even at extreme levels of intense ultra-endurance training, the net effect is to significantly increase your lifespan.



Edited by donw 2012-05-23 7:45 PM
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