General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Ever been coached on running form? Rss Feed  
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2012-06-07 12:24 PM

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Subject: Ever been coached on running form?
I went for a nice long run in Central Park yesterday. Hundreds of runners out yesterday.

I couldn't help but notice how most of the faster runners - or at least the ones that could sustain it for more than a mile or two - generally had better form. Legs did not criss cross, balanced strike, and not smacking the pavement as if they were trying to stomp on cockroaches.

So, how did they get that way?

Then there were the guys or gals doing the crazy legs style, or content to pound the pavement.

Are there running drills or core strength routines that should be periodically done? In swimming we have "stroke clinic" but anyone ever do or hear of a running equivalent?


2012-06-07 12:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

Yes, there are drills.  There are running clinnics, as well.

But what those people you saw have mostly in common is that they have been running a lot for a long time.

2012-06-07 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

From the standpoint of a life long heel striker with chronic knee pain-Chi running changed my life = no more pain.

Answer = yes I've been coached

2012-06-07 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
JohnnyKay - 2012-06-07 11:26 AM

Yes, there are drills.  There are running clinnics, as well.

But what those people you saw have mostly in common is that they have been running a lot for a long time.



Well, it's going to be one of "THOSE" days today, JK!
2012-06-07 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
I can sustain a pretty good pace for a pretty good amount of miles. If you were to see me running through Central Park, you'd wonder how I run like that and assume it must hurt. My legs kick out to the sides like Joe Theismann after LT got a hold of him. At our level, it really is nearly all about putting in the miles and letting our body do what it knows how to do.

Spending the time on your running form like you do when you spend the time learning how to hold an aero position or how to streamline your body in the pool just won't have the same impact. It's all about miles on your feet.

If you want to spend money getting coached, I simply don't think the reward is to be found having that time spent on your run. 
2012-06-07 12:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

I know the local big coaching organization around here has a running gait analysis service.  I presume they discuss the analysis and provide coaching to improve your form.   Here's their web site info as an example:

Run Gait Analysis$951 analysis

Using video, we assess the way you walk or run to determine any abnormalities in biomechanics.

 Edit to add:

I have not used this service.

However, when I was coached, my coach had me do running drills.  Some of them really did make a difference, I wasn't using my feet... it's hard for me to explain because I don't know the lingo, but I wasn't making use of the push off the ground.   Between that and some arm movement drills I have some new skills to help me run faster.  If I did them more, and could sustain it, I would definitely be a better runner.



Edited by BikerGrrrl 2012-06-07 12:51 PM


2012-06-07 1:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

Very interesting timing, as I've just undertaken an effort to change my gait. YMMV, but here's my recent experience:

I don't know how much coaching would be required, as much as I think access to a video camera and a treadmill has helped me. It's all really about a few things: energy efficiency, turnover and stride length. A video very quickly revealed what I suspected about my own gait - my stride length is too short. I tried a couple different things checking the video each time, and found that feeling like I'm sinking down into my legs more and focusing on the lifiting of my heel at the back of my stride made my stride longer. It also kept my body more still (efficiency), and if I applied the same turnover as my previous gait, I was going faster. It's going to take some time to get used to it muscularly, but the results were immediately obvious; my HR stayed around 150 bpm even as I started to approach 6:20\mile pace, where as before I would typically hit 150 around 6:50. To get that fast with my previous gait, I was essentially 'scampering' - increasing my turnover, therefore HR, and burning too much energy.

It's pretty obvious when you look at yourself in a video when you're doing something better or worse. At least how I look at them, great runners all seem to have very similar form, so I'm just stealing theirs for myself. Don't need a coach for that!

There is of course a lot to be said for just putting in the miles, but I put in a lot of miles with a crap form and wasn't getting anywhere after a point. Even in the early stages of improving my form, I can see the road open up, so to speak.

2012-06-07 1:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
I just finished a round of PT- picked a PT who is an avid runner and triathelete to use as my therapist. Not only did they heal my patellofemoral knee issues, but they gave me running drills, video taped and analyzed my running before and after learning the drills. Vast improvement in just 5 visits. 
2012-06-07 1:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

JohnP_NY - 2012-06-07 12:24 PM I went for a nice long run in Central Park yesterday. Hundreds of runners out yesterday. I couldn't help but notice how most of the faster runners - or at least the ones that could sustain it for more than a mile or two - generally had better form. Legs did not criss cross, balanced strike, and not smacking the pavement as if they were trying to stomp on cockroaches. So, how did they get that way? Then there were the guys or gals doing the crazy legs style, or content to pound the pavement. Are there running drills or core strength routines that should be periodically done? In swimming we have "stroke clinic" but anyone ever do or hear of a running equivalent?

 

I know that drills and technique are all the rage now, but seriously, it has very little to do with drills and everything to do with your running strength and endurance. Keep in mind that even before modern training techniques, elite Kenyan and Ethiopian runners could naturally find elite form with no coaching. And in the contrary, some good elite runners like Ryan Hall, have a unconvential run form (his armswing is surprisingly low) yet get great results.

 

Have said it before, but if it were really just a matter of technique to get that fluid, fast run cadence, professional dancers without run background should be able to emulate them fairly quickly. 

 

Alas, it's not just the movement of the legs - it's having the power and endurance to sustain that forceful stride at pace. That's a lot less a matter of technique and a lot more to do with run fitness.

 

Running is very different from swimming - I think triathletes unconsciously (and well-meaning) try to cross-apply training across sports, but here's a case where meticulous attention to technique in running is low yield compared to swimming (where it's very high yield.

 

Your form will automatically improve and become fluid and more efficient as you get faster through more and harder training. I'm sure there are a lot of coaches out there who would be glad to take your money and give you technique tips, but as to whether run technique training is a better use of time as opposed to HTFU and running more with that time is highly doubtful, especially given the low run volume of triathletes in the first place.



Edited by agarose2000 2012-06-07 1:28 PM
2012-06-07 1:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

My tri coach had a clinic and they encouraged me to change the way I ran.

After 2 weeks I had an injury that lasted on and off for 2 years.

If you are over 40 be careful of changing the way your body naturally moves running.

2012-06-07 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

A lot of smart coaches who advocate doing good drills say that the drills are not at all about changing one's gait to 'run like the fast guys'.  They are about neuromuscular conditioning, recruiting muscles in the activation patterns that are important for faster and more economical running.

But whether you do the drills or not, as said already, running lots for a long period of time (years, not months) is still required to develop good economy.  There is no magic bullet.



2012-06-07 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
all good stuff.

In my own case after taking some time off for health reasons, I came back into running feeling like I had aged 10 years. Months and months of running did not make me much faster, nor did it make the running feel much easier. Well, sort of, but the improvements were so small - in my opinion - verus effort.

I ended up hiring a PT and I had him focus me on core strength, stability, agility. Now, finally I am making good gains each week. I am running faster, and my legs feel up to it. Finally. And as my legs feel stronger, my stride is better. This might sound stupid, but I think for me there is a sweet spot where if I can keep a certain pace, its not so taxing and less wear and tear on certain muscles and joints. It just feels more efficient. Thats the percseption anyway.

So I feel I am kind of getting there, in a round about way. Thats why I as the question above. Maybe there is a well-worn path for runners. True some great runners don't need any of this. It comes natural. God bless em.

2012-06-07 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

JohnP_NY - 2012-06-07 4:04 PM all good stuff. In my own case after taking some time off for health reasons, I came back into running feeling like I had aged 10 years. Months and months of running did not make me much faster, nor did it make the running feel much easier. Well, sort of, but the improvements were so small - in my opinion - verus effort. I ended up hiring a PT and I had him focus me on core strength, stability, agility. Now, finally I am making good gains each week. I am running faster, and my legs feel up to it. Finally. And as my legs feel stronger, my stride is better. This might sound stupid, but I think for me there is a sweet spot where if I can keep a certain pace, its not so taxing and less wear and tear on certain muscles and joints. It just feels more efficient. Thats the percseption anyway. So I feel I am kind of getting there, in a round about way. Thats why I as the question above. Maybe there is a well-worn path for runners. True some great runners don't need any of this. It comes natural. God bless em.

Glad your running is improving.  But, was it the core strength, stability & agility?  Or was it just some more running that got you there?  I know you don't know the answer, just food for thought.

2012-06-07 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
JohnnyKay - 2012-06-07 3:19 PM

JohnP_NY - 2012-06-07 4:04 PM all good stuff. In my own case after taking some time off for health reasons, I came back into running feeling like I had aged 10 years. Months and months of running did not make me much faster, nor did it make the running feel much easier. Well, sort of, but the improvements were so small - in my opinion - verus effort. I ended up hiring a PT and I had him focus me on core strength, stability, agility. Now, finally I am making good gains each week. I am running faster, and my legs feel up to it. Finally. And as my legs feel stronger, my stride is better. This might sound stupid, but I think for me there is a sweet spot where if I can keep a certain pace, its not so taxing and less wear and tear on certain muscles and joints. It just feels more efficient. Thats the percseption anyway. So I feel I am kind of getting there, in a round about way. Thats why I as the question above. Maybe there is a well-worn path for runners. True some great runners don't need any of this. It comes natural. God bless em.

Glad your running is improving.  But, was it the core strength, stability & agility?  Or was it just some more running that got you there?  I know you don't know the answer, just food for thought.



Thats the million dollar question. Almost 9 mos of running with marginal gains, and then 1 month of PT with core strength/agility mumbo jumbo and then encouraging gains. Would it have clicked anyway on my own? And was there a set of drills/analysis that would have picked up any problems with my running earlier? In swimming you have stuff like catch-up drill.
2012-06-07 3:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?
Experior - 2012-06-07 11:41 AM

A lot of smart coaches who advocate doing good drills say that the drills are not at all about changing one's gait to 'run like the fast guys'.  They are about neuromuscular conditioning, recruiting muscles in the activation patterns that are important for faster and more economical running.

But whether you do the drills or not, as said already, running lots for a long period of time (years, not months) is still required to develop good economy.  There is no magic bullet.

^^This.  X about 10,000.

I was coached--generally pretty badly--in HS.  These days, I do occasional track workouts with a local corporate tri team and even more occasional others with a good friend's tri coach.  I don't learn anything about form from the coaches at those workouts (and have sometimes had to politely thank one of those coaches for his well-intentioned but cookie-cutter input and then promptly ignore it).

But I get faster taking part in those workouts because I'm pushed to access the top end of my speed.  Some of that is via drills (very, very little, frankly), most of it is from the specific workload of structured interval sessions.  If I put in the same sort of work on the bike, I'd get faster there, too.

Ultimately, though, I've worked on things like posture, balance, energy return, and stride length over a lot of miles over a number of years.  I was pretty pleased with a fellow aging hippie who passed me from behind on a bike a couple months ago as I was out for a long run on a local MUP and said "Nice form...you can always spot the serious runners out here."

2012-06-07 7:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Ever been coached on running form?

I generally agree with the statements that it takes running for a long time, but there is some science about it too.  I believe it's possible to "nudge" toward more efficient technique more quickly than just letting it happen completely organically.

I like this video, because I think it gives a good explanation of the mechanics behind efficient technique:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSGzqkjrWRA



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