General Discussion Triathlon Talk » It's official, Lance is out of Ironman.. Rss Feed  
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2012-06-16 3:08 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
If you get really great at anything, you will eventuality ne scrutinized and attacked, guilty or not. When will this investigation be complete? Regardless, I bet he retires his tri bike.


2012-06-16 4:37 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

If possible I would love to see Lance sue the USADA for slander or something along those lines and win.  It really sucks for the sport that he can't race.

2012-06-16 6:16 PM
in reply to: #4264973

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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
bryancd - 2012-06-16 1:06 PM
tjh - 2012-06-16 1:32 PM

I also have a hard time seeing what "liability" WTC would incur by changing their policy.  The anti-doping policy may be part of their contracts with sponsors but I find it hard to believe that sponsors would be opposed to having Lance race while he's under investigation.  I think it's mainly an appearance thing, WTC doesn't want to look like they're just catering to Lance.

The fundamental problem with WTC's current policy, Lance or no Lance, is that it allows any anti-doping body anywhere to effectively ban any athlete from WTC competition with no due process burden simply by opening an investigation, and maintain that ban indefinitely by declining to close the investigation.  That's too much power to but in the hands of the anti-doping agencies--it's not unreasonable or lax on doping to ask that they prove their case before an athlete is sanctioned. 

They suspended Weiss last year using the same rule and the same set of circumstances. Weiss could easily turn around and sue them for lost income if they let Lance continue.

^^This.

What I find interesting in this discussion is that implementing an anti-doping policy in the first place was 100% discretionary on the part of WTC.  This is a private enterprise, not an Olympic sport organizing body that receives government support that comes with "War on Drugs" strings attached.  I don't know what went into the WTC's decision to implement an anti-doping regimen for its races, but I imagine they see themselves caught in a bit of a no-win situation:  Don't test and you get the whispering campaigns about successful athletes that eventually filter out to the public at large (to the extent that the public gives a crap about triathlon, that is)...set up testing and anti-doping standards with meaningful penalties and you get this situation.



Edited by tcovert 2012-06-16 6:17 PM
2012-06-16 6:49 PM
in reply to: #4264737

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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

Are professional triathletes subject to drug testing?

 

2012-06-16 7:35 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

powerman - 2012-06-16 10:00 AM What he does for fun is his business. What he wanted was to race the Championship with the top in the sport. That is what I wanted to see too. Oh well... his window to be competitive is closing. Even if he can race next year... it's closing.

 

The thing is, this is how he earns income.

2012-06-16 7:51 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

[QUOT

E]steves10 - 2012-06-16 6:49 PM

Are professional triathletes subject to drug testing?

 

I believe so, at least in WTC events. Ironman live and Chrissie in her book have both mentioned testing.



2012-06-16 8:03 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
flashpoint145 - 2012-06-16 6:35 PM

powerman - 2012-06-16 10:00 AM What he does for fun is his business. What he wanted was to race the Championship with the top in the sport. That is what I wanted to see too. Oh well... his window to be competitive is closing. Even if he can race next year... it's closing.

 

The thing is, this is how he earns income.

How much income is he going to earn racing ina second tier event with AG'ers?

 

2012-06-16 8:04 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
mikecdisi - 2012-06-16 3:37 PM

If possible I would love to see Lance sue the USADA for slander or something along those lines and win.  It really sucks for the sport that he can't race.

It isn't slander. It is a governing body that he signed an agreement with. They are doing their job and opening an investigation with what they consider evidence. That isn't slander.

2012-06-16 8:11 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

blues2play - 2012-06-16 10:38 AM one might think that the private equity firm that owns Ironman would step in.  Having Lance around and in IM must boost the profit potential of the events (at least I would think).  This along with the Livestrong partnership would likely make the IM brand more attractive to potential buyers.  My personal feeling here, is to keep the events as profitable as possible thereby expanding the sport into more households and increasing participation enough to support new venues like Lake Tahoe and Cabo.  Just think of the eyeballs NBC lost on their expanded and more current coverage of the Kona event.  As a former politician once said, "there's going to be a giant sucking sound of dollars going elsewhere."  Lawyers who do not have an equity stake often find objections to issues at hand that are not in the best interest of stake holders.  I know if I was part of the controlling partnership, I would be stepping up to keep the cash flow going at as high a rate as possible, at least until some one can produce absolute proof the Lance accusations are true.

Honestly, if all it comes down to is dollars... then who cares. WTC is already slammed on a regular basis for being a money hungry evil coorporation. It seems like they looked at all angles, and they decided not to change rules mid season. They might have other rules stating they can't do that. I do believe it was an honest discussion with all points presented.

Regardless, I disagree and am disapointed. Not because they are loosing money, but because it is a stupid rule. They should have changed it after last year over Wiess. They are not caving, every other body does the same... allows them to keep racing until guilt and sanctions. It's hard to imagine why they set it up that way to begin with other than appearances asd being hard core against PEDs to gain some early credibility. How's that working out for you now?

2012-06-16 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

I would have liked to see Lance race at Kona....but I'm not losing any sleep over it.  I think the chances that Lance did NOT use PED's or blood-doping are very rare, if for no other reason then it was widely accepted among the riders at the time he competed.  I'd be hard pressed to call it "cheating" if he did, again, given the fact that most were doing it and it was widely accepted....the field was even....no cheating in that case.

Still....Lance racing or not racing just doesn't mean that much to me.....the same as Wellington not racing next year, or anyone else for that matter.  If triathlon is not bigger than any individual then it's not worth worrying over anyway.

I think Lance is a good guy.  It ends there for me.

2012-06-17 9:13 AM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

There's a Rev 3 full coming up and there's Beach2Battleship in NC in October if he can't run Kona.  Beach2Battleship isn't quite the prize money, but I'm sure he's not hurting for money.

Poor poor Lance.  Boo hoo.



2012-06-17 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
steves10 - 2012-06-16 7:49 PM

Are professional triathletes subject to drug testing?

 

Actually- all of us participating in USAT-sanctioned events (inc AGers) are technically subject to USADA testing.

http://www.usatriathlon.org/audience/athlete-resources/anti-doping.aspx

This USADA circus could potentially affect any of us.

Heck.... maybe USADA needs to investigate 27 in my AG at my local tri ......THEN I could finally get a trophy.......Yeah- that's the ticket

2012-06-17 4:25 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
my biggest question is why now,  why did they wait until now to file these charges....i smell a rat....did it ever occur to someone the revenue that the sponcors of say a craig alexander, raelert, or even mcCormmick and other top pros stand to lose if Lance were to actually win....take the example of Shimano and Campagnolo components...until lance won his first tour using shimano, campy was the main and only name.... it's my opinion that this is generated more by corporate sponcers not associated with lance that want this guy to go away....follow the money, that is what drive any and all professional sports, athletes are athletes they just want to compete on the field , but how do corporations compete....follow the money....keep in mind WTC is a corporation and who are there investors? like i said follow the money, until the last 70.3 everyone may have been rooting for lance but not very many of us thought he could actually win the world championship...now that he looks to be a serious contender...what happens...
2012-06-17 4:49 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

elkboy65 - 2012-06-17 5:25 PM my biggest question is why now,  why did they wait until now to file these charges....i smell a rat....did it ever occur to someone the revenue that the sponcors of say a craig alexander, raelert, or even mcCormmick and other top pros stand to lose if Lance were to actually win....take the example of Shimano and Campagnolo components...until lance won his first tour using shimano, campy was the main and only name.... it's my opinion that this is generated more by corporate sponcers not associated with lance that want this guy to go away....follow the money, that is what drive any and all professional sports, athletes are athletes they just want to compete on the field , but how do corporations compete....follow the money....keep in mind WTC is a corporation and who are there investors? like i said follow the money, until the last 70.3 everyone may have been rooting for lance but not very many of us thought he could actually win the world championship...now that he looks to be a serious contender...what happens...

This is a stretch.  A mass conspiracy involving WTC investors and the big name sponsors of McCormack and Alexander, really?  You probably think GW Bush planned 9-11.

2012-06-17 7:34 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
Not proven guilty, but 100% treating as guilty....slander
2012-06-17 8:58 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

For anyone wanting to read the full letter outlining the charges from USADA.



2012-06-17 10:57 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

suefesta - 2012-06-16 2:31 PM Maybe in the long run if Lance turns to either REV3 or HITS it would help one of them to become just as popular as the WCT. Could even that he could bring other pros over so they can race against them. One can always hope.

I think it's unlikely, but if Lance did fully embrace another triathlon series I think it would be a huge boost for them.

Look at what Lance did for Trek, Nike cycling, Bontrager, and especially SRAM.  Many probably consider there are 3 major component suppliers now.  It wasn't long ago there were only 2 big players.  And in pro cycling it wasn't long before that there was only Campy.

2012-06-17 11:10 PM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..

elkboy65 - 2012-06-17 4:25 PM ..take the example of Shimano and Campagnolo components...until lance won his first tour using shimano, campy was the main and only name.... ...

 

Huh??      Dura Ace ........... Its been around for awhile (70's or early 80's) --- many, many victories -- Team 7-11, Motorola, Coors Light Team of the early 90's - those are just the domestic teams i can think of off the top of my head

 

Sure - historically , Campy is great for the campionissimo ,  but Shimano has had a strong presence for decades now --- SRAM, OTOH, is a great benefactor of Armstrong's backing

 

 



Edited by streetstar 2012-06-17 11:13 PM
2012-06-18 5:50 AM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
i think you maybe misunderstanding me...I dont believe any athlete in tri is responsible for this investigation,  i do believe that sponcors of these athletes are capable of playing this type of game, and if anyone thinks that major coporate sponsors are above this is the one who needs a reality check, they have millions to win or loose depending on who wins, the shimano, campy comparison was just an example of a high profile athlete using there equipment...name 1 cyclist before Lance to win the TDF with shimano if you dont think thier (shimano) product gained from him winning your crazy,....do i think WTC , the USADA and major coorporations are in a mass concpiracy, no i dont think so, could i see major corporations paying someone (Floyd Landis) to continue to try and muddy Lances accomplishments and trigger ANOTHER investigation, yes...can i see WTC upholding a rule that they had to have a meeting about? yes, but whats there liability for allowing him to compete? that has me puzzled as well...who are they liable to, by allowing him to continue?...anyone who believes that money doesnt govern any professional sport needs to have there head examined....i simply mean the timing is suspicious, and who has the most to gain from him NOT getting to compete....Follow the money.... do you honestly think that Under Armour wants to be nice to Nike?

Edited by elkboy65 2012-06-18 6:19 AM
2012-06-18 6:14 AM
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Subject: RE: It's official, Lance is out of Ironman..
gerald12 - 2012-06-17 9:58 PM

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

For anyone wanting to read the full letter outlining the charges from USADA.

 

thanks for the link, i didn't see any physical evidence cited, ONLY "eye witness" testimony...once again i say follow the money....add an e to testimony and what do you get?  TESTIMONEY...

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