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2012-06-18 12:14 PM

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Subject: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
Lessons from the road - Hills always kill me. I'm exhausted by the top, especially when I get out of the saddle. I feel like swimmers who say they're exhausted after 25 yards - gasping for air. Today, as I was starting an out of the saddle climb, I had a thought. Maybe I should let the weight of my body push the peddle down instead of my leg muscles. So I tried it. I didn't push down at all. I just "fell" through the pedal stroke, letting my body weight do all the work. And it worked. One leg went down and the other went up, ready to take the weight of my body. So I fell through the next stroke. One by one I let my body weight be the force driving my cadence. By the top, not only were my cardio and legs still fresh, I had maintained a much stronger gear than I usually do. Is this a lazy man's approach to hills, or the proper way to ride them?


2012-06-18 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
I am really anxious to read the responses on this.  I am a weak cyclist and hills kill me.  I'm ready for any help I can get!
2012-06-18 12:45 PM
in reply to: #4267140

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

By no means am I an expert but I do that when I stand, which is almost always slower than when I stay sitting and keep the pedals spinning in a lower gear.  I can push much harder standing because like you say I am pretty much just standing on the pedals and letting gravity do its work, but my cadence is really low.  Sitting and spinning in a lower gear at a higher cadence is almost always faster for me.

I usually only stand for two reasons, to shake out my butt after a bit too much saddle time and to get the power to crank over a short hill without having to down shift.  Oh, three reasons.  I will stand to accelerate from a stop.



Edited by 2453V 2012-06-18 12:47 PM
2012-06-18 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
Long-term, you want to learn how to use your weight to assist with the pedal stroke. So you will be using your leg muscles AND your weight when standing.
2012-06-18 5:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

 

 

2012-06-18 5:23 PM
in reply to: #4267936

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
Khyron - 2012-06-18 3:03 PM

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

I disagree here. On any long ascent, mixing the two (standing and sitting) will give a far better result, especially when one can "recover" standing while not losing anything in the way of speed.



2012-06-18 6:58 PM
in reply to: #4267961

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
briderdt - 2012-06-18 5:23 PM
Khyron - 2012-06-18 3:03 PM

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

I disagree here. On any long ascent, mixing the two (standing and sitting) will give a far better result, especially when one can "recover" standing while not losing anything in the way of speed.

Also completely disagree. Cycling is far and away my strong suit, and I can tell you I do a lot of passing on hills standing in the saddle. And I'm mashing, not letting my weight do it. But...if it works better for you, by all means do it!
2012-06-18 7:07 PM
in reply to: #4267140

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
You need to have a mix, if nothing more than to have different muscles working different ways throughout a race/training ride between some time in the saddle and some time up going up hills. Strokes through the pedal should be smooth and circular, no forcing down. Time in the saddle isn't always the answer, sometimes proper time in saddle is more important. Work on hills, try different techniques, and the more you go up those hills, the better those proper techniques will work.
2012-06-18 7:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
briderdt - 2012-06-18 6:23 PM
Khyron - 2012-06-18 3:03 PM

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

I disagree here. On any long ascent, mixing the two (standing and sitting) will give a far better result, especially when one can "recover" standing while not losing anything in the way of speed.

I agree (with your disagreement).  It's probably somewhat an individual thing, but I find that especially on longer climbs (longer than 1-2 miles) -- but even on shorter ones -- it helps to mix things up a bit.  Probably that's because mixing it up involves subtle shifts in which muscles are being used, giving one a break, of sorts.

And to another poster the other issue -- yes, use your body weight primarily to turn the pedals (you are still working your legs a lot -- you have to 'stand back up' on each stroke!), though of course if you are really going hard, it is definitely a matter of both pushing and 'falling'.

In general (not universally), lighter riders prefer more standing than heavier riders.

2012-06-18 7:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

Not common knowledge

-Don't stand unless you're going to have to put more power than the gears can provide if that makes sense. (seated climb, you're not producing enough power; sprint, you need the most amount of power possible)

-Slide back in your saddle while doing a seated climb to use different muscles

-Go in high gear to keep your cadence, and try increasing your cadence by 10 on climbs.

-If sliding back doesnt work, slide forward more, but as a last resort because these are the primary muscles used when doing a TT/tri bike leg.

-If that doesn't work, then stand.

2012-06-18 8:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
When I stand up, I'm still working hard pushing the pedals.  It's just that I'm using my body weight "in addition" to my leg muscles. 


2012-06-19 5:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
Hills are the real reason you get those co2 canisters, mount them under your seat and when you need that extra push, break the seal and it will rocket you up!
2012-06-19 6:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
I think the general rule for standing is that you don't due it until you can see the crest of the hill. This is pretty much true unless you are a real gifted cyclist. Otherwise, as you said, you get winded and there isn't a real tradeoff with power vs time savings.
2012-06-19 6:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
briderdt - 2012-06-18 5:23 PM
Khyron - 2012-06-18 3:03 PM

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

I disagree here. On any long ascent, mixing the two (standing and sitting) will give a far better result, especially when one can "recover" standing while not losing anything in the way of speed.

This is a true statement.  On longer climbs I'll get out of the saddle 2 or 3 times just to use different muscles so I can make it to the top.  Its almost as necessary as doing a switchback if the climb is steep enough to require it.

2012-06-19 7:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
flashpoint145 - 2012-06-18 9:45 PM

Don't stand unless you're going to have to put more power than the gears can provide if that makes sense. (seated climb, you're not producing enough power; sprint, you need the most amount of power possible)


This depends on the athlete; some are better seated and some are better standing. It isn't as easy as saying always remain seated until you run out of gears.

Slide back in your saddle while doing a seated climb to use different muscles


Which muslces are you using when you slide back that you aren't using when you have slide forward?

Go in high gear to keep your cadence, and try increasing your cadence by 10 on climbs.


For most, they are probably better just trying to maintain a comfortable cadence until they run out of gears.

If sliding back doesnt work, slide forward more, but as a last resort because these are the primary muscles used when doing a TT/tri bike leg.


Again, curious as which muscles you are talking about.

Shane
2012-06-19 7:18 AM
in reply to: #4267140

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
I never stand unless its a long, steep climb and am forced out of the saddle. This seldom occurs. I have always been coached to stay in the saddle and keep spinning, as opposed to standing and crushing the pedals. The goal being to conserve as much energy as possible for the rest of the race (the run). This primarily applies I think to long course tris and not so much sprints.


2012-06-19 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?
fisherman76 - 2012-06-18 5:58 PM
briderdt - 2012-06-18 5:23 PM
Khyron - 2012-06-18 3:03 PM

Or never stand. From efficient energy saving, should only be standing when completely out of gears.

I disagree here. On any long ascent, mixing the two (standing and sitting) will give a far better result, especially when one can "recover" standing while not losing anything in the way of speed.

Also completely disagree. Cycling is far and away my strong suit, and I can tell you I do a lot of passing on hills standing in the saddle. And I'm mashing, not letting my weight do it. But...if it works better for you, by all means do it!

Agree to disagree.

2012-06-19 1:29 PM
in reply to: #4267140

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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

DV 1 - 2012-06-18 1:14 PM Lessons from the road - Hills always kill me. I'm exhausted by the top, especially when I get out of the saddle. I feel like swimmers who say they're exhausted after 25 yards - gasping for air. Today, as I was starting an out of the saddle climb, I had a thought. Maybe I should let the weight of my body push the peddle down instead of my leg muscles. So I tried it. I didn't push down at all. I just "fell" through the pedal stroke, letting my body weight do all the work. And it worked. One leg went down and the other went up, ready to take the weight of my body. So I fell through the next stroke. One by one I let my body weight be the force driving my cadence. By the top, not only were my cardio and legs still fresh, I had maintained a much stronger gear than I usually do. Is this a lazy man's approach to hills, or the proper way to ride them?


DV 1,
 
Congratulations on figuring out how climbing will work for you.
 
What will really blow your mind is, while the weight of your body is push the peddle down, pull up on the opposite one.  I do this and it’s intense.  I can feel it in the hamstring of the leg pulling up.  The really trick is keeping the body as quite as possible. 
 
Everyone has their own climbing style no one style is better than the others.  I will agree that sitting will burn less energy.  That’s really not my concern.  I tend to be a aggressive climber and attacking the hill in a race and training.  You want to climb faster train faster.  Climbing is a great interval workout. 
 
Have fun!
2012-06-19 11:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

I think the context needs to be clear. If I'm doing a workout or riding to work I do as much as I can to make as much power as possible. Or if you're in a bike race with attacks, drafting and explosive sprints, game on. 

But in a race (Oly+) ? The metabolic punishment for exceeding critical power even for 10 seconds is severe. You want to stay below that line, always. And most people, when they stand up, are doing it to try and put down moar powah! Most of us can do 400+ W sitting down (for a few seconds) - way more than I'd ever want to burn at any instant on a race.

There is no situation where lifting and lowering your body weight in addition to the force you're putting on the pedals is somehow more efficient than just sitting and putting the force on the pedals. For comfort or to stretch out, fine, but not as a more efficient way to pedal. Even on the steepest climbs in France - if you're standing you brought the wrong gears.

IMO of course.

2012-06-20 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Is this common knowledge I somehow missed?

 
... while the weight of your body is pushing one peddle down, pull up on the opposite one.  I do this and it’s intense.  I can feel it in the hamstring of the leg pulling up.  The really trick is keeping the body as quiet as possible. 

Amen ... it's best to be clipped in with this, but I use the same push-pull technique every time I ride.  My style is more a high cadence 'masher'; i.e. I stand mostly when I have to or want to (give the butt a rest) but mostly standing is infrequent for me.

Hate to be redundant but keep doing what you are doing as the only way to get better at climbing ... is thru climbing.

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