General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Well, LA won his AG.. Rss Feed  
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2012-09-17 9:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

orphious - 2012-09-15 10:29 PM Who cares really?  why cant we just let LA fade away like all the other dopers in sports do?  Not sayin he did or didnt do it but I am so sick of all threads about him... just let it go.

 



2012-09-17 10:03 AM
in reply to: #4413641

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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod
BTW- Not picking on pro golf.  Other major US pro sports are not under USADA either.
Which is why, drug policies or not, they are rife with PEDs. Shane

 

Because you need to be juiced out of your gord to play golf? 

2012-09-17 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

orphious - 2012-09-15 11:29 PM Who cares really?  why cant we just let LA fade away like all the other dopers in sports do?  Not sayin he did or didnt do it but I am so sick of all threads about him... just let it go.

Here's a tip; next time you see a thread title that references Lance, don't click on it.

2012-09-17 10:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
scott319 - 2012-09-17 10:36 AM

No offense to you, Shane, but I don't think so.  When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted that USADA would try to impose sanctions.


As I understand it, the USADA process goes basically like this (my anti-doping training is not through the USADA so there might be small differences):

- adverse analytical finding (A sample) or non-analytical (typically investigation started as the result of eye witness testimony); athlete is notified either of adverse A sample or that they are under investigation
- athlete is allowed to be present for unsealing and testing of B sample in the event of adverse analytical finding
- USADA notifies athlete of the infraction and proposed sanctions for the infraction
- athlete either chooses to proceed to arbitration or accept the sanctions
- if athlete proceeds to arbitration, then a three person panel is appointed and the arbitration occurs
- the arbitration panel decides the outcome
- either side can appeal the decision of the arbitration panel to the CAS

But I strongly object to the common perception that a choice not to continue a fight is the same as an admission of guilt.



The decision not to proceed to arbitration is similar to pleading guilty in legal matters.

Shane
2012-09-17 10:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
Jtiger - 2012-09-17 12:03 PM

Because you need to be juiced out of your gord to play golf? 



There are PED's that are used for golf.

However, I was primarily responding to the point about other major US sports not falling under USADA/WADA authority (except those that have a pool of athletes eligible for Olympic competition).

Shane
2012-09-17 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 5:16 AM
velocomp - 2012-09-17 9:03 AM There is a large difference between recieving a lifetime ban and accepting a lifetime ban.  Lance recieved it.  He has not accepted it.  Semantics yes, but clearly, not everyone has accepted that he shouldn't race.
When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted the sanctions proposed by USADA. Shane

Incorrect.  When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted that USADA could PROCEED with the case to propose sanctions.  The sanctions did not happen just because he told them he wouldn't fight them in the case.  It could result in *NO* sanctions being placed on him. 



Edited by lifejustice 2012-09-17 11:10 AM


2012-09-17 11:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 10:36 AM
scott319 - 2012-09-17 10:36 AM No offense to you, Shane, but I don't think so.  When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted that USADA would try to impose sanctions.
As I understand it, the USADA process goes basically like this (my anti-doping training is not through the USADA so there might be small differences): - adverse analytical finding (A sample) or non-analytical (typically investigation started as the result of eye witness testimony); athlete is notified either of adverse A sample or that they are under investigation - athlete is allowed to be present for unsealing and testing of B sample in the event of adverse analytical finding - USADA notifies athlete of the infraction and proposed sanctions for the infraction - athlete either chooses to proceed to arbitration or accept the sanctions - if athlete proceeds to arbitration, then a three person panel is appointed and the arbitration occurs - the arbitration panel decides the outcome - either side can appeal the decision of the arbitration panel to the CAS
But I strongly object to the common perception that a choice not to continue a fight is the same as an admission of guilt.
The decision not to proceed to arbitration is similar to pleading guilty in legal matters. Shane

 

Herein lies the problem.  You really can't compare a CAS arbitration panel or anything USADA/WADA does to our legal system.  The two are very different entities.  Our legal system is innocent until proven guilty.  WADA can basically do whatever it wants so long as it's not "arbitrary and capricious."  And even then, they get away with a lot.

My take?  Good on the RD for not giving in to a decision clearly formed from a witch hunt.  I'm not saying Lance did or didn't dope.  But I am saying that someone clearly had a vendetta against him.  It would be more worth it to use this time and energy against current cyclists instead of against someone whose last TdF victory was 7 years ago.

2012-09-17 11:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-16 3:44 AM It's too bad that a race director would choose to ignore a ifetime ban. Shane

This isn't a professional race.  It is just an amateur race.  Whether you feel the Ping pong example is absurd, the intention behind it is exactly what you are professing. 

Since you feel that he should not be competing professionally, or even as an amateur, I would sure hope that you define for the rest of us what, in your mind, you feel the "line" should be for lance. 

Until you do that, we are going to have to assume by your statements that you are saying Lance should never be allowed to put a race bib on?  Are you proposing that every race director should monitor their rosters to ensure no "Lance Armstrong" thumbs their starting line?  If not, please clarify, because it *really* sounds like that is what you expect.

2012-09-17 11:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

before reading the tyler hamilton book and the from landis to lance book I had never given doping much thought.

Sounds like the late 90's were a rough time to be a pro cyclist.

I wonder how clean tri is today?

2012-09-17 11:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-16 4:25 PM
cgregg - 2012-09-16 6:05 PM He's banned from officially sanctioned events where the governing body subscribes to the USADA. Quite clearly, this was not one of those events.... thus, there is no legal nor moral obligation to do anything except allow him to compete.
I agree there is no "legal" reason to keep him from competing. I strongly disagree that there is no ethical issue with allowing him to compete.
I mean, should we stop him from playing ping-pong with his nieces & nephews, too?
I would suggest that this is an example of reductio ad absurdum. Shane

 

So if I were to present to the RD a receipt of one of my competitors that visited a "Low T" or "Bio-identical Hormone" center, would there also be a moral obligation to prevent that person from competing in amateur events? Curious as to where the line is drawn.

2012-09-17 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
lifejustice - 2012-09-17 1:08 PM

Incorrect.  When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted that USADA could PROCEED with the case to propose sanctions.  The sanctions did not happen just because he told them he wouldn't fight them in the case.  It could result in *NO* sanctions being placed on him. 



In reviewing the WADC, it appears that the proposed sanctions do start if the athlete decides not to proceed to arbitration. You are correct that the USADA then needs to submit its findings to WADA and the UCI and the proposed sanctions could be modified at that point.

Shane


2012-09-17 12:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
lifejustice - 2012-09-17 1:20 PM

This isn't a professional race.  It is just an amateur race.  Whether you feel the Ping pong example is absurd, the intention behind it is exactly what you are professing.


The table tennis example is not a sanctioned competition. If Lance attempted to enter a table tennis competition sanctioned by the NGB for table tennis, then I would expect that he would be prevented from competing.

Since you feel that he should not be competing professionally, or even as an amateur, I would sure hope that you define for the rest of us what, in your mind, you feel the "line" should be for lance.


The line should be that, according to the WADC, he not compete in any sport for four years; after that he can compete, at a local level, in non-cycling events that do not lead to national or international competitions.

Shane
2012-09-17 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 10:05 AM
lifejustice - 2012-09-17 1:08 PM Incorrect.  When Lance decided not to go to arbitration, he accepted that USADA could PROCEED with the case to propose sanctions.  The sanctions did not happen just because he told them he wouldn't fight them in the case.  It could result in *NO* sanctions being placed on him. 
In reviewing the WADC, it appears that the proposed sanctions do start if the athlete decides not to proceed to arbitration. You are correct that the USADA then needs to submit its findings to WADA and the UCI and the proposed sanctions could be modified at that point. Shane

Lance feels the USADA is biased and thus refused to go to their arbitration process.  It's the equivalent of not showing up to your own trial.  USADA will certainly drop the hammer on him.  But the UCI and WADA may disagree due to USADA ignoring its own statute of limitations.

2012-09-17 12:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
tjfry - 2012-09-17 1:36 PM

So if I were to present to the RD a receipt of one of my competitors that visited a "Low T" or "Bio-identical Hormone" center, would there also be a moral obligation to prevent that person from competing in amateur events? Curious as to where the line is drawn.



I do not think it is the job, either "legal" or ethical, to do the job of ADA's. So, in your example, no, no obligation to prevent that athlete from competing.

However, if you presented your information to USADA, they investigated, proposed sanctions, the athlete declined the opportunity to contest the allegations during arbitration and therefore received a competition ban, then yes, I would expect the RD to prevent that athlete from competing.

Shane
2012-09-17 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
spudone - 2012-09-17 2:12 PM

Lance feels the USADA is biased and thus refused to go to their arbitration process.  It's the equivalent of not showing up to your own trial.  USADA will certainly drop the hammer on him.  But the UCI and WADA may disagree due to USADA ignoring its own statute of limitations.


I agree that the sanctions may not look like what are being proposed by the USADA once WADA and the UCI review the case. I think that the lifetime ban will be imposed but that he will get to keep his race results; in part because of the statute of limitations and in part because of the question of what to do with the races if Lance is DQ'ed.

Shane
2012-09-17 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 10:38 AM
Jtiger - 2012-09-17 12:03 PM Because you need to be juiced out of your gord to play golf? 
There are PED's that are used for golf. However, I was primarily responding to the point about other major US sports not falling under USADA/WADA authority (except those that have a pool of athletes eligible for Olympic competition). Shane

 

Who is roided out in golf on the PGA tour?



2012-09-17 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
Jtiger - 2012-09-17 2:27 PM

Who is roided out in golf on the PGA tour?



Who said anything about steriods?

Shane
2012-09-17 9:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
I think you all are missing the point .... 4 people actually beat him overall. How about that for some bragging rights?

Legit question here.. as an Age Grouper am I subject to the USADA? If I am not, why would Lance be Banned to compete as a AGer as well. I understand if he is competing as a professional, but to compete in an event as a general entrant what is the harm? Him being in the event does alot of good for the event in terms of publicity.
2012-09-18 4:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
southwestmba - 2012-09-17 11:57 PM

Legit question here.. as an Age Grouper am I subject to the USADA?


Yes (assuming the race is sanctioned by a body that is a WADA signatory). While it is uncommon for AGers to be tested and some of the rules are a little different (like retroactive TUEs) in sanctioned races athletes fall under the WADA code.

Shane
2012-09-18 5:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
And this is why people should let it go.   The only reason for the op was to stir up the 'did he or didnt he' dope question.  Don't see many posts about Macca, Chrissie or Crowie winning anything ever.  Mission accomplished.
2012-09-18 5:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..
Gunky - 2012-09-15 11:52 PM

orphious - 2012-09-15 11:29 PM Who cares really?  why cant we just let LA fade away like all the other dopers in sports do?  Not sayin he did or didnt do it but I am so sick of all threads about him... just let it go.

I have mixed feelings about the whole LA thing, but in response to your post, you kind of are, aren't you?  If you don't want to read posts about his doings, don't open the post.  Right?  Some people love hearing about any elite athletes, especially Lance, regardless of allegations.  And, my 1.5 year old son is a cancer survivor, and my wife is currently battling the nasty "C" word we all hate to hear in this household, so for me personally, I wish LA well in his endeavors, regardless of choices he may or may not have made in his past.  However he got to where he is, he's still been a huge impetus in the fight against Cancer and for that I am extremely thankful.

 

Ahhh the whole he fights cancer argument.  I get it. I really do.  The guy really does wonderful things with his foundation and touches many lives and it is great that he continues to do so.   This however has nothing to do with weather he doped or not.  And just like my previous post, the only reason he gets any attention at all is because of the doping issue, 



2012-09-18 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 1:30 PM
Jtiger - 2012-09-17 2:27 PM Who is roided out in golf on the PGA tour?
Who said anything about steriods? Shane

Check links in my prior post.

2012-09-18 10:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Well, LA won his AG..

gsmacleod - 2012-09-17 10:16 AM
spudone - 2012-09-17 2:12 PM Lance feels the USADA is biased and thus refused to go to their arbitration process.  It's the equivalent of not showing up to your own trial.  USADA will certainly drop the hammer on him.  But the UCI and WADA may disagree due to USADA ignoring its own statute of limitations.
I agree that the sanctions may not look like what are being proposed by the USADA once WADA and the UCI review the case. I think that the lifetime ban will be imposed but that he will get to keep his race results; in part because of the statute of limitations and in part because of the question of what to do with the races if Lance is DQ'ed. Shane

I'm never good at predictions, but my gut feeling is he'll get a slap on the wrist.  Because of the statute of limitations, and keeping in line with punishments already dealt out to other riders, it'll probably be something like an 8 year ban backdated to his last Tour win.

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