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Overtrained vs. Undertrained
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Overtrained3 Votes - [9.09%]
Undertrained30 Votes - [90.91%]

2012-09-21 6:51 AM

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Subject: Overtrained vs. Undertrained

Just kind of a question I've been thinking about as I read more threads about training and tapering before a big event. Some people can get away with less taper, some need more. It's a delicate balance, I know. But I'm just curious as to how you would go into a race if you are between the thought of being overtrained vs. undertrained.

Overtrained meaning coming into race day fatigued

Undertrained meaning coming into race day having to gut it out.

Let the discussion begin.



Edited by djrigby9 2012-09-21 6:58 AM


2012-09-21 7:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.
2012-09-21 7:20 AM
in reply to: #4421586

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

So maybe the balance isn't paper thin, but in crossing the finish line not hitting a PR or goal time, wouldn't you look back at your training and say something to yourself about having not trained enough or if you start caving in a few miles from the finish, wouldn't you also say something about having overtrained? I know some of this comes down to execution as well. And I'm not saying going into an IM only having 10 miles as your furthest run or anything like that.

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol



Edited by djrigby9 2012-09-21 7:21 AM
2012-09-21 7:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

So maybe the balance isn't paper thin, but in crossing the finish line not hitting a PR or goal time, wouldn't you look back at your training and say something to yourself about having not trained enough or if you start caving in a few miles from the finish, wouldn't you also say something about having overtrained? I know some of this comes down to execution as well. And I'm not saying going into an IM only having 10 miles as your furthest run or anything like that.

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

 

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool Again I'll maintain that there is a wide berth in there that includes hitting a PR or goal time but not being necessarily optimized. And that "caving in a few miles from the finish" is more a function of pacing than training.



Edited by the bear 2012-09-21 7:26 AM
2012-09-21 7:24 AM
in reply to: #4421596

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

2012-09-21 7:30 AM
in reply to: #4421602

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.



2012-09-21 7:33 AM
in reply to: #4421596

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

So maybe the balance isn't paper thin, but in crossing the finish line not hitting a PR or goal time, wouldn't you look back at your training and say something to yourself about having not trained enough or if you start caving in a few miles from the finish, wouldn't you also say something about having overtrained? I know some of this comes down to execution as well. And I'm not saying going into an IM only having 10 miles as your furthest run or anything like that.

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

 

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool Again I'll maintain that there is a wide berth in there that includes hitting a PR or goal time but not being necessarily optimized. And that "caving in a few miles from the finish" is more a function of pacing than training.

On race day, yes, when that is your one controlling factor. I'll maintain the fact that should you go out and train big miles during race week, vs tapering off too early and losing some of your bank of training, there is a difference. Yes coming in and pacing properly on race day is vital. What I'm generally getting at is, what side do you lean on, possibly tapering too early and playing the chances of your body not being up to the challenge. Or do you chance it and put in a few more days, and possibly come in fatigued. I feel your just trolling here for the sake of trolling.

2012-09-21 7:36 AM
in reply to: #4421612

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

2012-09-21 7:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
If disagreeing with your premise and the validity of your poll is trolling, then so be it. But again, if you're just looking for people who agree with you, then a public forum is probably the wrong place.
2012-09-21 7:39 AM
in reply to: #4421620

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 5:36 AM

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Your asking the bear to not be the bear. 

2012-09-21 7:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:36 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Why? Obviously because I feel there are miles of room between the two choices, and plenty of room to "actually stir up some thought" in between your parameters. And now I have to go to work, Have a great day!



Edited by the bear 2012-09-21 7:45 AM


2012-09-21 7:42 AM
in reply to: #4421626

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
I'm not looking for people who agree with me. I picked neither side of the debate on over vs under trained. The whole point of starting a poll like this is to put yourself in said situation and pick a side. It's one or the other, not change what the OP is looking for. Now, put yourself in that situation. It's race morning, nerves are kicking in, if you HAVE to choose whether to be over or under, which would it be? That's really all I'm getting at. Some people like me, I tend to think I'm under when I'm probably over. Now, what are your thoughts on this example? I just wanted a nice and happy Friday :-(
2012-09-21 7:44 AM
in reply to: #4421628

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:40 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:36 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Why? Obviously because I feel there are miles of room between the two choices. And now I have to go to work, Have a great day!

... because that's the premise of making this poll in the first place. Maybe there is a larger gap than I can perceive, and that's fine.

2012-09-21 7:46 AM
in reply to: #4421637

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:44 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:40 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:36 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Why? Obviously because I feel there are miles of room between the two choices. And now I have to go to work, Have a great day!

... because that's the premise of making this poll in the first place. Maybe there is a larger gap than I can perceive, and that's fine.

Look, see how we "actually stir up some thought"?



Edited by the bear 2012-09-21 7:47 AM
2012-09-21 7:48 AM
in reply to: #4421627

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
bzgl40 - 2012-09-21 7:39 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 5:36 AM

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Your asking the bear to not be the bear. 

I understand Frown but I'm just looking for some insight from people. Not a whole heap of me being off-base by not offering up a choice to be primed for race day. I totally understand the bear's logic, but there really isn't a point to antagonize me for putting up a poll asking you to put yourself on one side or the other and defending it to the death. Like I said about myself above, I feel under most of the time, but sometimes have been over. It's just a simple question.

2012-09-21 7:49 AM
in reply to: #4421643

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:46 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:44 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:40 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:36 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Why? Obviously because I feel there are miles of room between the two choices. And now I have to go to work, Have a great day!

... because that's the premise of making this poll in the first place. Maybe there is a larger gap than I can perceive, and that's fine.

Look, see how we "actually stir up some thought"?

Now you're just starting to be rude for rude's sake, and that's no fun.



2012-09-21 7:57 AM
in reply to: #4421650

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:49 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:46 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:44 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:40 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:36 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:30 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:24 AM
the bear - 2012-09-21 7:22 AM
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 7:20 AM

the bear - 2012-09-21 7:17 AM Where's the choice for neither? There's a very wide gap between the two (known as properly trained) that most can easily fall into. I'd say the balance isn't as delicate as you indicate.

 

I wouldn't put a choice for neither, because then this poll would be pretty much useless wouldn't it?? lol

With or without that choice, IMHO.Cool

So then you want me to remove my post? You could have just ignored it. I was hoping for some useful insight from people, not just pointless banter. But, that's your prerogative.

It's a public forum. I have no more control over what you post than you have over what I post, or whether you consider my opinion to valid or pointless banter. You could easily ignore my comments as well. But, that's your prerogative. If you don't want opinions, don't start threads.

True, but instead of trying to play your cards this way, why not give a legitimate answer to either side that may actually stir up some thought, rather than throw in a wild card that skews the direction of this thread away from the original topic.

Why? Obviously because I feel there are miles of room between the two choices. And now I have to go to work, Have a great day!

... because that's the premise of making this poll in the first place. Maybe there is a larger gap than I can perceive, and that's fine.

Look, see how we "actually stir up some thought"?

Now you're just starting to be rude for rude's sake, and that's no fun.

Again, we disagree. Your prior post indicates that my response was contrary to stirring up thoughts, then you seemingly admit that it did cause you to think. 

I posted an opinion on your thread. The rest of this is me defending your attack on my opinion. And I'm out.

2012-09-21 8:35 AM
in reply to: #4421660

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
Your opinion was that there should be another option for 'neither'. Which is what we're dealt on a daily basis, which I understand. However, you just keep plugging away and missing the point of the poll and discussion I was trying to elicit in the first place. I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm trying to keep the integrity of the post in tact, which has been jacked and lead off-course. So if and Admin wants to remove this thread, by all means. I fear nobody is going to actually weigh in on the original question I asked, so this thread is just going to take up space. Yet you are still failing to answer the question of the poll. Which would you choose? And why? I'm not saying either is right, or either is wrong in any way shape or form. I'm simply trying to stir up thoughts about why people think one is better for them vs. the other. But instead, you want to come on here and lead this thread off-track. Now we're probably not going to get any legitimate answers from anyone. Which makes me sad.
2012-09-21 8:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained

I agree with Bear.  There is no valid reason I can think of to fall on one side or the other except ignorance of how to train.  It's a situation that's easily avoided through educating yourself on sites like BT and ST, following a plan, or working with a coach.  The middle ground is quite wide.

By the time you're within 3 weeks or so of your race, the hay is in the barn, so to speak.  It's often said, and I feel it's true, that the week of your race there isn't anything you can do to make yourself faster, but there are lots of things you can do to make yourself slower.

Now, if the question were changed to "Is it better to go into a race undertrained or try to train through an injury?", I'd choose undertrain and uninjured instead of risking going into a race with a nagging injury.

2012-09-21 8:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
TriMyBest - 2012-09-21 8:41 AM

I agree with Bear.  There is no valid reason I can think of to fall on one side or the other except ignorance of how to train.  It's a situation that's easily avoided through educating yourself on sites like BT and ST, following a plan, or working with a coach.  The middle ground is quite wide.

By the time you're within 3 weeks or so of your race, the hay is in the barn, so to speak.  It's often said, and I feel it's true, that the week of your race there isn't anything you can do to make yourself faster, but there are lots of things you can do to make yourself slower.

Now, if the question were changed to "Is it better to go into a race undertrained or try to train through an injury?", I'd choose undertrain and uninjured instead of risking going into a race with a nagging injury.

I don't really see why you guys are missing the point. You're at the start line, would you rather your thought be over or under trained? I agree that there is not a valid reason to realistically fall on either side, I am not arguing that whatsoever. What I'm getting at is that point before a race, in the morning. What's your thought? Why do you think that? Was my original question misleading? I'm not understanding why people are missing the point I'm getting at. It doesn't have anything to do with how you are actually trained, but that feeling you have. Say during my first HIM, I looked around and was like 'Holy s*^t, I'm not ready for this, I'm so undertrained'.

2012-09-21 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
I have set several PRs this year, in non-A races, coming off of pretty high volume training weeks.

Last year, on the day before my lifetime-A race (Kona via lottery ), my legs were still a little fatigued.

I like to train! A lot! I think that a little bit of weariness coming in to the race is OK. If you are smart (I am not always ) you should be able to taper so that you don't lose any fitness and you are optimized on race day.

After reading the OP's description of what they were thinking, I believe the poll question would be better if it was under prepared vs untapered. My answer to that would be unequivocally, untapered.

Edited by wannabefaster 2012-09-21 8:57 AM


2012-09-21 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
djrigby9 - 2012-09-21 9:46 AM
TriMyBest - 2012-09-21 8:41 AM

I agree with Bear.  There is no valid reason I can think of to fall on one side or the other except ignorance of how to train.  It's a situation that's easily avoided through educating yourself on sites like BT and ST, following a plan, or working with a coach.  The middle ground is quite wide.

By the time you're within 3 weeks or so of your race, the hay is in the barn, so to speak.  It's often said, and I feel it's true, that the week of your race there isn't anything you can do to make yourself faster, but there are lots of things you can do to make yourself slower.

Now, if the question were changed to "Is it better to go into a race undertrained or try to train through an injury?", I'd choose undertrain and uninjured instead of risking going into a race with a nagging injury.

I don't really see why you guys are missing the point. You're at the start line, would you rather your thought be over or under trained? I agree that there is not a valid reason to realistically fall on either side, I am not arguing that whatsoever. What I'm getting at is that point before a race, in the morning. What's your thought? Why do you think that? Was my original question misleading? I'm not understanding why people are missing the point I'm getting at. It doesn't have anything to do with how you are actually trained, but that feeling you have. Say during my first HIM, I looked around and was like 'Holy s*^t, I'm not ready for this, I'm so undertrained'.

I see.

Honestly, I can't give an opinion, because even though I've been in the situation of going into a race undertrained, and knowing it, I've never had the experience of starting a higher priority race while extremely fatigued from training and wishing I'd rested more.  The only time that happens is with a 'C' race, and I've planned to train straight through it.

2012-09-21 9:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
TriMyBest - 2012-09-21 8:56 AM

I see.

Honestly, I can't give an opinion, because even though I've been in the situation of going into a race undertrained, and knowing it, I've never had the experience of starting a higher priority race while extremely fatigued from training and wishing I'd rested more.  The only time that happens is with a 'C' race, and I've planned to train straight through it.

This was the type of response I was looking for. What is that like for you? Knowing you're fatigued going into your 'c' race? I for one don't really rate my races, as I don't have the money to race as much as I would like, so I generally go in with each race looking to get my best results on the day. Most of the time I fall into that gap of well-trained and properly rested. However, I felt one race I came in fatigued, and I couldn't figure out why.

2012-09-21 9:06 AM
in reply to: #4421570

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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained
I went with undertrained.  If they are both going to make me slower on race day,  I would rather have spent the time with my family than training too much.

Edited by ray6foot7 2012-09-21 9:07 AM
2012-09-21 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Overtrained vs. Undertrained

wannabefaster - 2012-09-21 8:56 AM I have set several PRs this year, in non-A races, coming off of pretty high volume training weeks. Last year, on the day before my lifetime-A race (Kona via lottery ), my legs were still a little fatigued. I like to train! A lot! I think that a little bit of weariness coming in to the race is OK. If you are smart (I am not always ) you should be able to taper so that you don't lose any fitness and you are optimized on race day. After reading the OP's description of what they were thinking, I believe the poll question would be better if it was under prepared vs untapered. My answer to that would be unequivocally, untapered.

Bold = good point. I guess that's what starting this thread at what, 6am after a hard morning workout gets me!

I totally agree. I think having those nerves helps get you going. Like being in the starting blocks of the 100m, so jittery and full of anxiety.

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