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2012-10-01 7:06 PM
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2012-10-01 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
axteraa - 2012-10-01 4:54 PM
itsallrelative_Maine - 2012-10-01 8:05 PM

TankBoy - 2012-09-30 6:47 PM Hey folks - I'll be in again, just have to get in front of a real computer before I can post my Bio. Welcome Shane and Jennifer - Jennifer it will be fun to share a group with you again! Any new folks I missed?

 

Tank Boy! Good to "see" you.

Since it seems like a lot of you are familiar with each other and have participated in lots of previous conversations - please let me know if I'm asking something you've already covered (and then maybe point me to where I can read the answers).

After my disappointing results in my second HIM, I realized that my expectations for what I could do (on the amount of time I have ~11-13 hours a week) are probably not in line with what I want to do...Also - coming from a sedentary background, I have no experience with pushing the limit in training. Yanti mentioned that most swim sessions should be painful...I don't know if I have a yardstick for that in my vocabulary (not because I don't want it - I just don't have the experience)...should I be gasping after each set? Should I feel like I can't make it to the end of the set (or just barely)? What is the correct barometer for swim (I'll get to the correct barometer for the bike and run in later posts)?

If I were going to do a set of something like 20x100 that I expect to be very difficult, the progression of how I feel and the level of difficulty might go something like this:

1-5 - "I'm a rock star, I'm going to kill this"
6-10 - "Ok, this is going to be a good tough workout"
11-15 - "Was that #12 or 13 - I have to do 7 more??  Or is it 8, I can't think straight.  @#%!, I missed the sendoff time!"
16-17 - "I think I'm going to pass out, my heart is pounding out of my chest"
18-20 - This is where the mental fortitude needs to kick in, you have to dig deep, maintain your focus and your technique.  When you finish that last one you just hang on the side of the pool and motion to the lifeguards that you are ok.  After a few minutes, you drag yourself out of the pool feeling like a million bucks for having pulled it off.  Smile

Now that's a bit of an extreme but doing a set like that on a regular basis will go a long way.   

 

Not to step on toes... but I'd highlight the last sentence.....  Not every workout needs to feel like this.  But some of them do. 

I've gone through that progression before, it's painful and it hurts, but it's over relatively quickly.  Although I usually skip right over the rock star part and start 1-5 with "hmmm, Ok, not as easy as it looks all written out on the board like that."   

Another good set is a descending interval, but maintaining the same split.  So, say 20 x 100s as

5 on 1:40
5 on 1:35
5 on 1:30
5 on 1:25

but coming in every 100 at 1:20, or whatever numbers you choose. 

Personally, for me I find that I do better with a hard interval rather than a :XX interval.  In other words, in Arend's set of 20 x 100, I do better on a 1:XX interval, not 20 x 100 on a :XX rest interval.  The latter gives me too much latitude, since I am in control of the speed.  On the former, the speed controls me.  On sets like that, it's common that the last 2 or 3 I get :02 -3 seconds rest at the wall.  Just enough to stop, look up, breathe, turn, and go.

2012-10-01 7:08 PM
in reply to: #4435968

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-01 5:06 PM

Two other thoughts:

1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program? I started last week and got all 6 runs in for 20 miles total. I started week 2 without any mileage increase as I doubt I will up it for the first month or so. Remember if the short run is 2 miles that is a 20 mile week, short run is 3 miles that is a 30 mile week, short run is 4 miles, then that is a 40 mile week! So remember increments should be in fractions of a mile (or kilometer for our Canadian friends).

2. I am in week 3 of Finding Freestyle. I am essentially working on drills and balance a lot with some good hard sets tomorrow am I suspect.

I am starting BarryP this week, also at 20 miles with short of 2 and long of 6

2012-10-01 7:15 PM
in reply to: #4435972

Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
ChrisM - 2012-10-01 9:07 PM
axteraa - 2012-10-01 4:54 PM
itsallrelative_Maine - 2012-10-01 8:05 PM

TankBoy - 2012-09-30 6:47 PM Hey folks - I'll be in again, just have to get in front of a real computer before I can post my Bio. Welcome Shane and Jennifer - Jennifer it will be fun to share a group with you again! Any new folks I missed?

 

Tank Boy! Good to "see" you.

Since it seems like a lot of you are familiar with each other and have participated in lots of previous conversations - please let me know if I'm asking something you've already covered (and then maybe point me to where I can read the answers).

After my disappointing results in my second HIM, I realized that my expectations for what I could do (on the amount of time I have ~11-13 hours a week) are probably not in line with what I want to do...Also - coming from a sedentary background, I have no experience with pushing the limit in training. Yanti mentioned that most swim sessions should be painful...I don't know if I have a yardstick for that in my vocabulary (not because I don't want it - I just don't have the experience)...should I be gasping after each set? Should I feel like I can't make it to the end of the set (or just barely)? What is the correct barometer for swim (I'll get to the correct barometer for the bike and run in later posts)?

If I were going to do a set of something like 20x100 that I expect to be very difficult, the progression of how I feel and the level of difficulty might go something like this:

1-5 - "I'm a rock star, I'm going to kill this"
6-10 - "Ok, this is going to be a good tough workout"
11-15 - "Was that #12 or 13 - I have to do 7 more??  Or is it 8, I can't think straight.  @#%!, I missed the sendoff time!"
16-17 - "I think I'm going to pass out, my heart is pounding out of my chest"
18-20 - This is where the mental fortitude needs to kick in, you have to dig deep, maintain your focus and your technique.  When you finish that last one you just hang on the side of the pool and motion to the lifeguards that you are ok.  After a few minutes, you drag yourself out of the pool feeling like a million bucks for having pulled it off.  Smile

Now that's a bit of an extreme but doing a set like that on a regular basis will go a long way.   

 

Not to step on toes... but I'd highlight the last sentence.....  Not every workout needs to feel like this.  But some of them do. 

I've gone through that progression before, it's painful and it hurts, but it's over relatively quickly.  Although I usually skip right over the rock star part and start 1-5 with "hmmm, Ok, not as easy as it looks all written out on the board like that."   

Another good set is a descending interval, but maintaining the same split.  So, say 20 x 100s as

5 on 1:40
5 on 1:35
5 on 1:30
5 on 1:25

but coming in every 100 at 1:20, or whatever numbers you choose. 

Personally, for me I find that I do better with a hard interval rather than a :XX interval.  In other words, in Arend's set of 20 x 100, I do better on a 1:XX interval, not 20 x 100 on a :XX rest interval.  The latter gives me too much latitude, since I am in control of the speed.  On the former, the speed controls me.  On sets like that, it's common that the last 2 or 3 I get :02 -3 seconds rest at the wall.  Just enough to stop, look up, breathe, turn, and go.

Absolutely right on the not every workout part, I certainly didn't want to imply that they all should be like that.  

The other point about doing the 100s on an interval rather than a rest interval is a really good one too.

2012-10-01 7:17 PM
in reply to: #4433790

Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
I need to research the BarryP concept a bit to make sure it fits in with what I plan but I need some kind of structure and want to get my miles up so I have a feeling I'll end up down that road
2012-10-01 7:25 PM
in reply to: #4435985

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Absolutely right on the not every workout part, I certainly didn't want to imply that they all should be like that.  

I know, just didn't want to scare her away 



2012-10-01 7:46 PM
in reply to: #4433790

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Most of my run training always follows BarryP's plan somewhat as I usually run 6x per week.

This past week I was 30/45/108, but I am trying to settle in at 35/60/100, then slowly increase the intensity on the middle runs.  Last year I was around 30/60/120

ETA: in minutes, not miles.



Edited by tri808 2012-10-01 7:49 PM
2012-10-01 7:53 PM
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2012-10-01 7:58 PM
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2012-10-01 8:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-01 8:06 PM

Two other thoughts:

1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program?

I have been doing it, presently halted during a taper, but looking to re-engage for the winter.
2012-10-01 8:07 PM
in reply to: #4436043

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-01 2:53 PM
tri808 - 2012-10-01 8:46 PM

Most of my run training always follows BarryP's plan somewhat as I usually run 6x per week.

This past week I was 30/45/108, but I am trying to settle in at 35/60/100, then slowly increase the intensity on the middle runs.

. Jason my goal will be to slowly get to 3/6/9 (miles) over the fall and then consider intensity. Actually, scratch that I won't add intensity over the winter at all. I find that it takes too much to recover from and really only helps me peak before races. It also has significant injury risk for me. I think a highly successful winter training program would end with me getting close to 4/8/12.

I think that is the prudent thing for you, especially coming off injury.  Building consistancy will be your bread and butter. 

I'm definately going to play it on the safe side.  My idea of intensity isn't even that fast.  If I do a 60 minute run at open marathon pace...I consider that pretty darn intense...LOL.



2012-10-01 8:08 PM
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Attachments
----------------
Barry P Running Plan.docx (76KB - 33 downloads)
2012-10-01 8:37 PM
in reply to: #4435968

Pro
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NJ
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
I'm following BarryP with a very easy start. 1,2,3 for 10 miles/week. I find the short runs to be the hardest mentally. It takes me more time to find my shoes and get out the door than the 10 min run. Im not going to increase mileage any time soon so I'm thinking maybe I'll do them after masters in the morning. Tom, thanks for the word doc!

Edited by kcarroll 2012-10-01 8:40 PM
2012-10-01 9:20 PM
in reply to: #4435968

Expert
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San Luis Obispo, CA
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-01 5:06 PM

1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program?

I used it last last winter to build a solid running base.  I really liked the simplicity, but added mileage too quickly and ended up with an angry IT band.  I guess I didn't have the discipline to "enjoy" the short runs and looked at them as more of a nuisance.  I'm using Higdon's HM plan for my 12/2 race and may go to Barry P after.  We'll see...

2012-10-01 10:20 PM
in reply to: #4433790

Pro
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
I'm in for BarryP, assuming the knee is up for it as well. 20 minute test run went well today - I'll see if it swells up overnight. 
2012-10-02 2:00 AM
in reply to: #4433790

Extreme Veteran
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Northampton, UK
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Name: Stavros Carayannis, 36yrs old

Story: My background is a little different to most. I entered a 3k fun run in July 2009 to see if I could complete it and was thoroughly unimpressed with my result (19min which I walked at least half of, and it turned out to only be 1.5miles). This motivated me to find a training plan for a 5k run later in the year and found this site. One thing lead to another and I ended up entering 3 sprints that year.

Family Status: Moved in with my Girlfriend of 5yrs at the beginning of the year and we haven't killed each other yet!

Current Training: Try and improve my speed for sprint & Oly distance races before starting IM distance training.

2011 Races: As well as a few other sprint races, I started the year with the same race as in 2010 (which was my first ever race) and improved my time by 6.5 mins. I also had my first Oly and missed out on the 3hr mark by a mere 1min!

2012 Races: Sprint race in April (new best time of 1:12), Oly in May (new best of 2:53), first HIM in September (5:27) and finished off the season with the same sprint as last year 7mins faster

Weightloss: I've never really be concerned with my weight as it has almost always been around the 140lb mark, though a case of gastroenteritis back in Jan saw my weight drop to 135 and it sort of hovers between 135-138 at the moment.

Winter Goals: Trying to decide whether to get straight back into the BarryP 1-2-3 running plan (but cut out one of the short runs) or working on a 10k program to improve my shorter distance times.

Due to my work hours (and the time difference between UK and US) I don't get the chance to post much and when I do I spend most of the time catching up on the pages you guys have posted in the mean time.



2012-10-02 2:04 AM
in reply to: #4435968

Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-02 1:06 AM

1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program?

I've been doing the Barry P plan for the last 3 or 4 months and have built up from 20/40/60 mins to 30/60/90 mins which has taken me from about 20mpw to around 33mpw without the usual issues I seem to get when I reach 25mpw.

 

Oh and here's the race report for my last race of the season!



Edited by sicone 2012-10-02 2:06 AM
2012-10-02 6:14 AM
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2012-10-02 6:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Big day for my wife yesterday, she went back to work a half day in the morning.  Her first time at work since she crashed on her bike on May 6th.  She has also been on her bike on the trainer for a few minutes to see how her shoulder tolerates it and it has been fine.  She has been back to running for a few weeks, up to a 3' run/1' walk.  Very exciting to see her back on the road to full recovery!
2012-10-02 6:18 AM
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2012-10-02 6:19 AM
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2012-10-02 6:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

Great feedback on the swim - I think the point of swimming a set in a particular time vs. a particular amount of rest is key for me.

As for the BarryP program...I used it last year (starting in October) and enjoyed it with one caveat: (you all might notice a theme here) I ran too easy. I got up to 40 mph and the long run felt great with a quick recovery which I appreciate at my advanced age, but keeping with the "run easy" instructions, I was easily slower by a minute per mile on my pace. I kept waiting for the speed to come, so I could start with the intervals and LT work, but it never did. About a month before my last race, I started to throw in a little speed work here and there but had fallen off the BarryP wagon because of my foot injury.

So - now I've got about a year of base mileage built up and I think for me, I need to start pushing the tempo on the easy runs a bit and start throwing in the speed work. October is going to be a bit of a loosey-goosey month (got some travel and a bunch of kids activities), fitting in as many 3 mile runs a week as I can with a few 6 milers if time permits...based on what my average mpw turns out to be for October, I'll start the BarryP program in Nov with the total mileage per week from the Oct weekly average.

2012-10-02 6:20 AM
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2012-10-02 6:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III

axteraa - 2012-10-01 7:15 AM Big day for my wife yesterday, she went back to work a half day in the morning.  Her first time at work since she crashed on her bike on May 6th.  She has also been on her bike on the trainer for a few minutes to see how her shoulder tolerates it and it has been fine.  She has been back to running for a few weeks, up to a 3' run/1' walk.  Very exciting to see her back on the road to full recovery!

Yeah! The road to recovery! I hope she had a good first day and is still feeling strong.

2012-10-02 6:28 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group Part III
Fred D - 2012-10-02 8:18 AM
blbriley - 2012-10-01 10:20 PM
Fred D - 2012-10-01 5:06 PM

1. Who all is interested (or already is doing) the Barry P running program?

I used it last last winter to build a solid running base.  I really liked the simplicity, but added mileage too quickly and ended up with an angry IT band.  I guess I didn't have the discipline to "enjoy" the short runs and looked at them as more of a nuisance.  I'm using Higdon's HM plan for my 12/2 race and may go to Barry P after.  We'll see...

. I think the absolute key to the Barry P plan is patience. I actually like the very short runs. There are obviously other great running plans out there to do, so in no way is the Barry P the only way to go. My feeling is that it has some pluses for older (40+) triathletes who have a history of running injuries. I have a friend who was the second overall amateur at eagleman this year and I know he's used it extensively in the past, so it int just or slower people.

While I haven't done the BarryP plan specifically, I have done a block of a few months of a similar thing - except I ran every day.  I found the very short easy runs to be very beneficial.  More often than not, if I was feeling a bit sore or stiff before the run, by the end of it I felt much better and that carried over to the rest of the day.

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