sub 1h IM swim (Page 2)

2012-10-24 9:37 PM

in reply to: #4467958

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

yazmaster - 2012-10-24 6:03 PM

Neat stuff AB.

I'm not so good with the swim data, but in terms of the run decay data, a lot of it does have to do with how well you're trained for the distance, especially for longer stuff.

The Mcmillan Calc marathon estimate is a great example. YOu might be running 20 min 5k and see a low 3 estimate on the marathon estimate and decide you're going to go BQ tomorrow on your 20 miles per week, but it's not going to happen. Mcmillan's decay calculations assume you're well trained for the event distance (often 70mpw for the marathon.) I did note that the decay data you cited above are from world class performances, which are always extremely well prepared for the distance.

The swim events in triathlon are much shorter, and will probably be less prone to this underdistance effect, but the IM swim is long enough that it could be a factor with low yardage in training. I'll leave that to the swim experts to figure out.

So here is how I would use it... couple of ways.

1) Find out my PR in 2 distances such as 100 and 400. Calculate my decay. let's just say it's 1.06 (6% slowing with each doubling)

2) Do an 800 tt the following week and discover my decay between 400 & 800 is 1.14... YIKES...not well trained for the 800. Do some more 800 target pace training at shorter intervals, such as 200 repeats at the projected time from the 400 as an example. Keep doing this till my 800 time comes down to a decay of more like 1.06-1.09.

3) Extend my repeat length & number and extend my target times out to 1000s, 1500s, 2000s, etc.

Of course you still have to be trained for the distance, but this gives you a way to see if you are adequately trained or far from it. Say you can complete a 3k swim, but even at your best 3k time, the decay compared to your last olympic distance race this summer is well above 1.06-1.09...it's clear where you need to do work. Not on endurnance, but on your sustainable pace.

Lots of fun to be had.

tjfry

2012-10-24 9:51 PM

in reply to: #4467869

Expert

2547

The Woodlands, TX

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

AdventureBear - 2012-10-24 5:45 PM If you want to get all math geek on this question, you can calculate your fatigue rate and compare it to some knowns. Just like the McMillan calculator looks at decay rates for running example, swimming also has a decay rate as distance increases. There have been a couple of studies that looked at runners & swimmers world record data and noted that if the times and distances were plotted on a log-log scale that the decay in speed was linear. In other words, as the distance gets longer, the fatigue rate is the same. A double of distance results in say, 6% slowing. Double the distance again, another 6% slowing, etc. The initial data were both world record performances in running and swimming and the decay rate of each sport was the same (about 6%) Granted, this is for the best in the world at each distance. Peter Reigel wrote a few articles in running world magazine that looked at his own personal data and noted the same linear relationship to HIS pb times. Phil Skiba continues on this idea in both running & swimming in his books for triathletes and in his Race Day software. The math here gets a little tricky with logs n stuff, but if anyone is really intrigued by this, feel free to PM me, or read this article. http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amtriathlo...

The only problem I see here is that the measurements are based on a best effort. I know for many the goal is to exit the swim fresh, as is my practice. So a best effort 400, for example might not equate to a 2.4 mile with a XX decay rate. Then again, since you don't slow down the second half and remain a steady pace, it might.

Also, training purely on percentages (i.e. 10% of the race is swimming, so 10% of my training should be swimming), is a horrible horrible mistake.

Edited by tjfry 2012-10-24 9:53 PM

2012-10-25 10:08 AM

in reply to: #4468122

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

tjfry - 2012-10-24 8:51 PM

Also, training purely on percentages (i.e. 10% of the race is swimming, so 10% of my training should be swimming), is a horrible horrible mistake.

I agree with the best effort part...you'd want to exit the water feeling ready to go on the bike...which means that if you want to calcuate fatigue curves on your best efforst in training you'd need to over shoot.

I think what's really important is knowing that if you want your average IM pace to be say 1:30/100 then you really need to be able to put out a best effort...and a best effort at distance that are well below that pace (faster).

using a starting point for decay coefficients can give people a ball park to work from.

For those that use the McMillan or Daniels tables routinely for running they should find a lot of similarity in approaching swimming this way. I still think the best way to do it (to use the fatigue factor approach) is to identify existing weak points in your trianing so that you don't fool yourself into thinking you'll pull off your fast IM swim just because you can one -off a 1:10 100m swim.

I missed the part in the thread about 10% training for 10% of the race, but I agree as well.

siouxcityhawk

2012-10-25 10:40 AM

in reply to: #4466730

Expert

1224

Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa.

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

I was thinking I was a good swimmer until I read this thread. Wow those are some sick times you guys are pulling in.

I've only been swimming for about 18 months and I can consistently do repeat 100 yards (short course = 25 yard pool???) at about 1:19 with 20 seconds rest and I have done the HIM swim distance in a pool in 31:00. I think I can get sub 30:00 in a 25 yard pool but getting to sub 1 hour for an IM swim seems like a major stretch for me.

That being said, some of you guys out here are studs and I am hoping to get there someday!

xrodolfox

2012-10-25 1:05 PM

in reply to: #4466730

Member

297

Ann Arbor

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

The guy who noted limited workout time is right on.

That said, I don't do IM distances. I don't want to. But I am a swimmer and I love sprint tris, masters swimming (mostly IM), and recently, OWS.

I did a 5k with minimal practice in 1:12:xx. That's faster than 1hr pace for an IM distance.

I am much better at sprints or 200's where I can still do a 200im in under 2:12.

My 16 x 100yd comfortable pace is 1:11 or 1:12 on a 1:20 interval. I do 10 x 100m long course on the 1:30 I interval, and short course meters on the 1:25. To push, I do 1:15 or 1:10 intervals for SCY, but I can only do 6 on 1:15 and 3 on 1:10 so far this season. By march I can generally pull off 12 on the 1:15 interval arriving at the 1:08. That's once a year.

I prefer IM anyhow, and my real bench mark is to do 12 x 100 IM on the 1:25 interval and 6 on the 1:20 interval arriving at the 1:17 or 1:18.

To be clear, I'd never want to bike 115 miles after a long swim. But, I could do the sub 1hr Iron Man swim if needed.

axteraa

2012-10-25 1:36 PM

in reply to: #4469172

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

xrodolfox - 2012-10-25 3:05 PM

To be clear, I'd never want to bike 115 miles after a long swim. But, I could do the sub 1hr Iron Man swim if needed.

Famous last words....

Good thing an IM bike is only 112 miles!

siouxcityhawk

2012-10-25 1:39 PM

in reply to: #4469172

Expert

1224

Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa.

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

At the risk of sounding like a newb, what does this mean?

My 16 x 100yd comfortable pace is 1:11 or 1:12 on a 1:20 interval. I do 10 x 100m long course on the 1:30 I interval, and short course meters on the 1:25.

axteraa

2012-10-25 1:41 PM

in reply to: #4469262

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

siouxcityhawk - 2012-10-25 3:39 PM

At the risk of sounding like a newb, what does this mean?

My 16 x 100yd comfortable pace is 1:11 or 1:12 on a 1:20 interval. I do 10 x 100m long course on the 1:30 I interval, and short course meters on the 1:25.

That means that every 1:20 (or whatever the interval is) you start another 100. If you finish the 100 in 1:11, you get 9 seconds rest. If you finish in 1:15 you get 5 seconds rest.

2012-10-25 2:17 PM

in reply to: #4469172

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

xrodolfox - 2012-10-25 12:05 PM
I prefer IM anyhow, and my real bench mark is to do 12 x 100 IM on the 1:25 interval and 6 on the 1:20 interval arriving at the 1:17 or 1:18.

Sweet!

In my adult life I've swum 100 IM on 1:45 x 1, lol. I've done 10 x 100IM on whatever...just finished it because it felt good. That's the first step, right?

I'll work towards doing good quality swimming with 10x100 IM on 2:00, then from there improve my pace. I love butterfly, for some reason hate backstroke and find breaststroke my latest fun project for improvement. So many subtleties that are lost on adult inflexible bodies.

siouxcityhawk

2012-10-25 3:12 PM

in reply to: #4469264

Expert

1224

Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa.

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

axteraa - 2012-10-25 1:41 PM

siouxcityhawk - 2012-10-25 3:39 PM

At the risk of sounding like a newb, what does this mean?

My 16 x 100yd comfortable pace is 1:11 or 1:12 on a 1:20 interval. I do 10 x 100m long course on the 1:30 I interval, and short course meters on the 1:25.

That means that every 1:20 (or whatever the interval is) you start another 100. If you finish the 100 in 1:11, you get 9 seconds rest. If you finish in 1:15 you get 5 seconds rest.

Thanks. That's what I was suspecting... I am giving myself WAY too much recovery time.

2012-10-25 6:04 PM

in reply to: #4469466

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

siouxcityhawk - 2012-10-25 2:12 PM

axteraa - 2012-10-25 1:41 PM

siouxcityhawk - 2012-10-25 3:39 PM

At the risk of sounding like a newb, what does this mean?

My 16 x 100yd comfortable pace is 1:11 or 1:12 on a 1:20 interval. I do 10 x 100m long course on the 1:30 I interval, and short course meters on the 1:25.

That means that every 1:20 (or whatever the interval is) you start another 100. If you finish the 100 in 1:11, you get 9 seconds rest. If you finish in 1:15 you get 5 seconds rest.

Thanks. That's what I was suspecting... I am giving myself WAY too much recovery time.

Recovery time depends entirely on what you are trying to accomplish. Purely form and technique focused for improving a bad habit, without regard to speed, should have as much rest as needed to focus 100% on the single correction for your next repeat.

Work on anaerobic or time trial speed...basically all out for a set distance specifically for anaerobic fitness...also should have a LOT of rest.

As the rest period gets shorter, from 20-30 sec at the long end down to 5 seconds at the short end, you are working more and more on aerobic fitness.

If you can do X by 100 on 2 minutes and your best effort has you coming in at 1:55 making every interval, you're working on aerobic metabolism (with or without good technique)

But if you do X by 100 on 2 minutes and you come in at 1:10 or 1:20 with 40 seconds rest, you're mostly building anaerobic efforst OR allowing yourself time to recover well and focus on a specific form bit.

That doesn't mean you can't improve a form focus while swimmign aerobically, but the notion that you are giving yourself "way to much rest" all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

axteraa

2012-10-25 6:37 PM

in reply to: #4469315

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

AdventureBear - 2012-10-25 4:17 PM

xrodolfox - 2012-10-25 12:05 PM I prefer IM anyhow, and my real bench mark is to do 12 x 100 IM on the 1:25 interval and 6 on the 1:20 interval arriving at the 1:17 or 1:18.

Sweet! In my adult life I've swum 100 IM on 1:45 x 1, lol. I've done 10 x 100IM on whatever...just finished it because it felt good. That's the first step, right? I'll work towards doing good quality swimming with 10x100 IM on 2:00, then from there improve my pace. I love butterfly, for some reason hate backstroke and find breaststroke my latest fun project for improvement. So many subtleties that are lost on adult inflexible bodies.

Butterfly is a great stroke when things are going well but when it goes bad, it goes BAD! LOL

Backstroke was always a mystery to me when I swam and remains as such to this day. I just can't get it right.

Breastroke was my specialty but I fear it did bad things to my knees that I still suffer from in my running now.

I may have to try the 10x100IM some time but it sure won't be on 1:25!!!

odpaul7

2012-10-25 7:01 PM

in reply to: #4469754

Expert

1375

McAllen

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

I love the backstroke and butterfly, but for the love of God himself I cannot do breaststroke. I look like a freaking cork. No forward motion at all.

However,

2012-10-25 10:13 PM

in reply to: #4469776

9167

Stairway to Seven

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

odpaul7 - 2012-10-25 6:01 PM

I love the backstroke and butterfly, but for the love of God himself I cannot do breaststroke. I look like a freaking cork. No forward motion at all.

However,

but you can...and it's simple.

Just wait for bouyancy to return you to the surface before taking your next stroke...

Eidman

2012-10-26 6:33 AM

in reply to: #4466730

Extreme Veteran

523

Brambleton, VA

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

Lots of great information about splits and 100s send-offs. Here are my 2 cents : shorter sets are great for establishing speed and power; however you need to drop in a mix of longer sets. i.e., 8 x 500LCM on 7:30, or 4 x 1000LCM on 15:00. Those send offs will get you to a sub 1 hour swim. I swam sub 55 at IM Melbourne. If you can not hold those send offs, no worries. Find a send off that works while giving you 15 sec rest. The long sets will build your stamina. On the other side of the coin try 32 x 50 all out sprints on a 1 min send off (you can treat the 4 or 6th 50s as a recovery swim if needed).

The combination of all out sprints and longer sets has served me well. Good luck.

clemson05

2012-10-26 7:58 AM

in reply to: #4470140

Veteran

327

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

I am right at the 1hr IM swim area so I will throw in my $.02. I did the swim portion of a HIM relay 2 weeks ago in the REV3 Anderson race. The swim is in a lake so no current and it was wetsuit legal. I did my portion in 28'.

My workouts are grouped into either short, sprint interval sessions or long interval sessions.

I will do on again off agains (50yd sprint on 40 seconds then 50 yd easy on 50 seconds - repeat 30 reps) This gives me 10-15 seconds of rest after each 50 but the hard 50 have to be all out sprint from the very beginning. This workout will get the hr to a max rate very quickly and teach you to push past your limits on the sprints.

I do my 100yd intervals on the 1:30 so this gives me 5-10 seconds rest between intervals and I will go for 12-15 100's. Sometimes I will stretch to 200 intervals on the 3:00 mark.

The best workout I have found, however, as a HIM or IM indicator is the 1500 repeat. I will swim a 1500 straight at a leisurely pace (usually a 1:32-1:35 100yd pace) and then take 60 seconds rest. Then I do a second 1500 holding as close to 10 seconds per 100 faster than the first 1500 as I can. This puts me in the 1:22-1:25 100yd range which will get you right at the 1 hr IM pace.

The short intervals are good at developing endurance and pace but the longer swims at race pace are where I really see the gains.

tigers75

2012-10-26 8:11 AM

in reply to: #4470228

Extreme Veteran

415

Subject: RE: sub 1h IM swim

clemson05 - 2012-10-26 8:58 AM

My workouts are grouped into either short, sprint interval sessions or long interval sessions.

I do my 100yd intervals on the 1:30 so this gives me 5-10 seconds rest between intervals and I will go for 12-15 100's. Sometimes I will stretch to 200 intervals on the 3:00 mark.

The short intervals are good at developing endurance and pace but the longer swims at race pace are where I really see the gains.

x2....on this. Iam on track right now for a 1hr 5 min pace myself.

And of course swimming more,more,more. Once you have the cardio factor and technique down, its all about moving thru that water as streamlined as possible.