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2012-10-29 7:24 PM

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Subject: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

Am I dreaming to think I can negative split my IM run on Sat.? 

Stand alone marathon was negative split, 1/2 IM run has been negative split, half marathon negative split, and for practice I've negative split all my long runs during training. 

Yes, I realize this is ironman we're talking about.  But is this just a completely naive goal?  To play the bike ultra-conservative, start the run well within myself, and try to be in a position to pick it up a little and finish strong?



2012-10-29 7:46 PM
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2012-10-29 7:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

I won't say it is impossible, but it will be very difficult.

 

Good luck.

2012-10-29 8:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

Very hard to do.

My best IM run I positive split by 6 minutes. I have negative split a HIM run by less than 30".

Have fun out there at PCB!

2012-10-29 8:10 PM
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2012-10-29 8:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

Of course it is possible.  It doesn't happen very often.

But the reason it doesn't happen often is that it is oh so easy to go too hard in the 'early stages' (first 8-10 hours. lol) of an IM.  While it isn't clear that negative splitting the marathon is the best strategy, attempting to negative split is probably a very good strategy for many of us.  It might lead to actually running the entire marathon.



2012-10-29 8:10 PM
in reply to: #4474362

Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

It's possible if you have very good bike fitness or are ultra conservative on the first half of the run.

2012-10-29 9:44 PM
in reply to: #4474423

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
Experior - 2012-10-29 8:10 PM

Of course it is possible.  It doesn't happen very often.

But the reason it doesn't happen often is that it is oh so easy to go too hard in the 'early stages' (first 8-10 hours. lol) of an IM.  While it isn't clear that negative splitting the marathon is the best strategy, attempting to negative split is probably a very good strategy for many of us.  It might lead to actually running the entire marathon.

Yea, I guess in reality that is kind of my thought.............

2012-10-30 12:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
walk slow the first half then walk fast the 2nd half
2012-10-30 12:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
JM2 - 2012-10-29 9:44 PM
Experior - 2012-10-29 8:10 PM

Of course it is possible.  It doesn't happen very often.

But the reason it doesn't happen often is that it is oh so easy to go too hard in the 'early stages' (first 8-10 hours. lol) of an IM.  While it isn't clear that negative splitting the marathon is the best strategy, attempting to negative split is probably a very good strategy for many of us.  It might lead to actually running the entire marathon.

Yea, I guess in reality that is kind of my thought.............

That's my goal as well.  The accepted rule here seems to be that the marathon can't be run....especially for a first timer. I call bullchit.

Like you, I don't want to walk.  I have yet to walk in any race I've done.  I've been slow as hell a time or two, but I haven't walked.  My first IM, or at least the first IM I have signed up for is Tahoe......my goal is to not walk any portion of the marathon.  I won't believe it can't be done with the right bike pacing.

2012-10-30 2:53 AM
in reply to: #4474625

Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
Left Brain - 2012-10-29 7:32 PM
JM2 - 2012-10-29 9:44 PM
Experior - 2012-10-29 8:10 PM

Of course it is possible.  It doesn't happen very often.

But the reason it doesn't happen often is that it is oh so easy to go too hard in the 'early stages' (first 8-10 hours. lol) of an IM.  While it isn't clear that negative splitting the marathon is the best strategy, attempting to negative split is probably a very good strategy for many of us.  It might lead to actually running the entire marathon.

Yea, I guess in reality that is kind of my thought.............

That's my goal as well.  The accepted rule here seems to be that the marathon can't be run....especially for a first timer. I call bullchit.

Like you, I don't want to walk.  I have yet to walk in any race I've done.  I've been slow as hell a time or two, but I haven't walked.  My first IM, or at least the first IM I have signed up for is Tahoe......my goal is to not walk any portion of the marathon.  I won't believe it can't be done with the right bike pacing.

As I mentioned before, it's not just about bike pacing...it's about bike fitness too.  The higher your bike fitness the faster you go at lower effort.  Which in turn means the shorter amount of time you are on the bike, which means essentially you are fresher for the run...and increases the likelyhood of you running the whole thing (or in the case of the OP, give you a better chance of negative splitting).

If athlete A and athlete B both swim and bike at the same effort, but athlete A is able to complete his bike in 5 hours where athlete B completes his bike in 6.5 hours...athlete A is going to have more in the tank for the run even though they both paced the bike well.



Edited by tri808 2012-10-30 3:09 AM


2012-10-30 6:38 AM
in reply to: #4474625

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
Left Brain - 2012-10-30 1:32 AM
JM2 - 2012-10-29 9:44 PM
Experior - 2012-10-29 8:10 PM

Of course it is possible.  It doesn't happen very often.

But the reason it doesn't happen often is that it is oh so easy to go too hard in the 'early stages' (first 8-10 hours. lol) of an IM.  While it isn't clear that negative splitting the marathon is the best strategy, attempting to negative split is probably a very good strategy for many of us.  It might lead to actually running the entire marathon.

Yea, I guess in reality that is kind of my thought.............

That's my goal as well.  The accepted rule here seems to be that the marathon can't be run....especially for a first timer. I call bullchit.

Like you, I don't want to walk.  I have yet to walk in any race I've done.  I've been slow as hell a time or two, but I haven't walked.  My first IM, or at least the first IM I have signed up for is Tahoe......my goal is to not walk any portion of the marathon.  I won't believe it can't be done with the right bike pacing.

Almost nobody goes in wanting to walk, though a few people go in intending to walk.  I don't say it is a 'rule' that the marathon cannot be run.  It is, however, a fact that the vast majority of  participants, and just about everybody who finishes in more than 12 hours, spends some significant portion of their time walking.

Running the entire marathon is a laudable goal, and you should aim for it.  I hope you succeed.  The combination of fitness, conservatism, and luck required is pretty rare.

2012-10-30 9:43 AM
in reply to: #4474362

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

Yes.

I did it at Ironman Canada. Now, a couple disclaimers; Firstly- I didn't set any records with my overall time. I was in at about 10:37:something, so I wasn't in single digits. That helps.

Secondly, I chose my battle well. The former Ironman Canada course is a net elevation loss from the marathon turnaround back to the finish. With the exception of two nasty little hills you are largely on a gradual descent on the returning 13.1 miles.

Thirdly, I used a heart monitor to limit my effort on the bike, keeping my average heart rate below 150 BPM at 149 BPM the entire race. It resulted in a slow bike split, but I had fresh legs for the run.

And finally, I had been doing a lot of overdistance runs- runs longer than 26.2 miles, to prepare and some huge brick days. By a lot, I mean I did probably 6 total runs over marathon distance. Earler in the year I did at least one ultramarathon too that was over 100 miles. That kind of long slog over 30 hours really helps bult a fitness base and trains you mentally. A marathon sounds like a 5K when you've had to get your head around running 105 miles non-stop.

2012-10-30 9:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
Thanks for the last three posts....all helpful.
2012-10-30 9:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

Absolutely you can.... but you have to make it part of your race plan and stick to it... that means planning to go perhaps :10-:15/mile slower than goal pace through the first half.  That should be enough to allow for fatigue and heart rate drift as you get into the 2nd half.

 

The other way of doing it... go out at your goal pace and hoping to hold that and push harder through the end, however, requires you to have a GREAT day physically (and nutritionally) and a LOT of mental fortitude.  Both can be done.

2012-10-30 10:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
What is your training volume and health leading up to this weekend? As others have said, it is very much possible, but you need to be ready and practiced for it.

I think interesting question would be for you to put out your training and pace goals and we can spend the rest of the day guessing whether YOU can do it.


2012-10-30 11:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

I think alot of whether it can be executed effictively is did you also train this way?  Did you negative split your long runs?  Do you know what it is like to run faster as the run gets harder and have you trained yourself (physically, mentally and emeotionally) for this endeavour.

 

 

2012-10-30 11:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

My IM marathon approach was to start of really slow....and then taper off.

 

If you try to have a negative split it probably means you are holding back the first half and that is probably a good plan.  In the final analysis, there is only one number that matter and only one number you will remember, you finish time. 

2012-10-30 11:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

The key to the negative split is to totally sandbag the first half. :D

In all seriousness, negative splitting an IM run is definitely really really hard.  It can be done, but your pacing has to be perfect and nothing can go wrong...

2012-10-30 11:35 AM
in reply to: #4475079

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
I'm not convinced that the best strategy in an IM distance race is a negative split in each sport, let alone the last one, the run.

If we look at a standalone marathon we save energy in the first half to perform better on the second half, but an iron distance race with the same strategy we'd be going easier the first half of the RACE, not the first hald of each component if we were to properly transfer the strategy over.

Otherwise we may as well try to negative split subsections of the marathon, which seems silly and useless.

I'd still want my run to be as even as possible overall, but I wouldn't be too worried about a "negative split" necessarily.
2012-10-30 11:39 AM
in reply to: #4474728

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
Experior - 2012-10-30 7:38 AM
Left Brain - 2012-10-30 1:32 AM

That's my goal as well.  The accepted rule here seems to be that the marathon can't be run....especially for a first timer. I call bullchit.

Like you, I don't want to walk.  I have yet to walk in any race I've done.  I've been slow as hell a time or two, but I haven't walked.  My first IM, or at least the first IM I have signed up for is Tahoe......my goal is to not walk any portion of the marathon.  I won't believe it can't be done with the right bike pacing.

Almost nobody goes in wanting to walk, though a few people go in intending to walk.  I don't say it is a 'rule' that the marathon cannot be run.  It is, however, a fact that the vast majority of  participants, and just about everybody who finishes in more than 12 hours, spends some significant portion of their time walking.

Running the entire marathon is a laudable goal, and you should aim for it.  I hope you succeed.  The combination of fitness, conservatism, and luck required is pretty rare.

Just wanted to speak up here. Michael really knows his stuff, so maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule, but IMLP was my first Ironman and first marathon of any sort and I ran the entire thing (except for aid stations, which was part of the plan), coming in at 16:02 or so.

Of course, I'm a much better runner than swimmer or cyclist, so maybe that's why. (I made the bike cutoff by less than four minutes.)

But no, even I didn't negative-split it. 



2012-10-30 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
PinkPrincess - 2012-10-30 12:39 PM
Experior - 2012-10-30 7:38 AM
Left Brain - 2012-10-30 1:32 AM

That's my goal as well.  The accepted rule here seems to be that the marathon can't be run....especially for a first timer. I call bullchit.

Like you, I don't want to walk.  I have yet to walk in any race I've done.  I've been slow as hell a time or two, but I haven't walked.  My first IM, or at least the first IM I have signed up for is Tahoe......my goal is to not walk any portion of the marathon.  I won't believe it can't be done with the right bike pacing.

Almost nobody goes in wanting to walk, though a few people go in intending to walk.  I don't say it is a 'rule' that the marathon cannot be run.  It is, however, a fact that the vast majority of  participants, and just about everybody who finishes in more than 12 hours, spends some significant portion of their time walking.

Running the entire marathon is a laudable goal, and you should aim for it.  I hope you succeed.  The combination of fitness, conservatism, and luck required is pretty rare.

Just wanted to speak up here. Michael really knows his stuff, so maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule, but IMLP was my first Ironman and first marathon of any sort and I ran the entire thing (except for aid stations, which was part of the plan), coming in at 16:02 or so.

Of course, I'm a much better runner than swimmer or cyclist, so maybe that's why. (I made the bike cutoff by less than four minutes.)

But no, even I didn't negative-split it. 

That's fantastic!  

But yes, I do believe that you are an outlier.  All of the IM runs that I've done have been out-and-back runs (usually two loops, once it was four loops).  So you get to see pretty much the whole field.  There's an awful lot of walking going on.  You see it on the live feeds from the races as well.

And it isn't just the 14+ hour folks (pick your own meaningless time...) who are walking.  I finished IMWI in around 11 hours this year and walked about 4 miles of the run in the middle.  A friend of mine went sub-10 at IMWI last year and walked part of the way.

IM pacing is just that hard.  Plus other stuff happens.  So kudos to you for pacing well and steering clear of the other stuff.

2012-10-30 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

cbrave - 2012-10-30 10:28 AM What is your training volume and health leading up to this weekend? As others have said, it is very much possible, but you need to be ready and practiced for it. I think interesting question would be for you to put out your training and pace goals and we can spend the rest of the day guessing whether YOU can do it.

Health is pretty good, expecting to show up Sat. loose, rested, and ready mentally.  I practiced negative splitting on all my long runs, five of them......a 16, 2 @ 18, and 2 @ 21.  I'd say the average pace for the first half of those was around 9:15ish and the pace on the second half was around 8:45ish, so I know that isn't such a big difference.  Did long rides of 77, 85, 100, and 2 @ 112 (pace for all pretty much right at 19 mph).  Ran 4-5 after each of them at 8:45 pace. 

My goal for the race has everything to do with the run.  Yea, it appears negative split may be dreaming, but based on some of this feedback trying to get into position for a negative split may simply yield the ability to run the whole thing, which I'd be way stoked about.   

2012-10-30 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?

I didn't negative split in IM Canada this year, but came very close.  First half was 2:00:18, second half 2:01:10. 

I second Tom's approach in that I used a HR monitor the whole way and didn't let it get out of "comfortable aerobic" at all.  I didn't walk any part of the run, either, which I think helped me mentally because stopping to walk is much easier than beginning to run again.

Whatever you do, remember to ENJOY the day!  You've worked hard, now comes the fun part

2012-10-30 1:25 PM
in reply to: #4475079

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Subject: RE: Possible To Negative Split Ironman Run?
jldicarlo - 2012-10-30 11:26 AM

The key to the negative split is to totally sandbag the first half. :D

In all seriousness, negative splitting an IM run is definitely really really hard.  It can be done, but your pacing has to be perfect and nothing can go wrong...

LOL...

OR, instead of perfect pacing, you just really have to suck the first half and then do the second half with a sense of desperation or be recovered from the earlier easier effort. 

I negative split IM Austria in 2011 by 20 minutes because I felt like crap starting the run and used a very conservative run/walk ratio....by the 2nd half, I felt way better and ran longer and faster between walk breaks.  Negative split IM Canada this year by 20 minutes as well...started with the same strategy as IM Austria, but apparently, was bleeding time from going too slow.  Had no choice but to neg split to make the midnight cutoff! 

At Boise 70.3 2011, I neg split the run by 40 minutes (!) because I had severe GI issues on the first loop.  When they resolved, I was able to run it in the 2nd loop at a nice pace (for me).

Granted....I am at the BOP for distance events. So prob doesn't really pertain to the OP, but if someone slower wants to know that their race can come around, it can.

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