working on speed
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2012-12-01 6:33 AM |
Veteran 241 | Subject: working on speed My goal for next season is to place in my age group at a few of the local sprint tri's. Based of this past years results, my swim and bike times are on par but my 5k run time is where I lose it. I ran a 22:15 at my last tri and got 4th because the 3rd place guy passed me during the run. This is the second time this has happened...ahh..As I work on speed by doing more high intensity intervals, hill repeats, fartlek runs, etc. I notice it's not my legs that's preventing me from going faster, it's my lungs. As soon as I start running under 7 min miles, I get out of breath and have to slow down to recover....Should I be doing something else to work on my vo2/lung capacity? is this normal when trying to get faster? Edited by zaugfear 2012-12-01 6:34 AM |
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2012-12-01 7:29 AM in reply to: #4517450 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: working on speed You're not limited by speed. It's endurance you lack. How much do you run weekly and how many months or years have you been doing it? |
2012-12-01 11:20 AM in reply to: #4517450 |
161 | Subject: RE: working on speed When you start going sub 7 and you get tired... Keep going sub 7. If you can only keep up sub 7 for a mile or two, so be it until you're too tired to continue and then thats your run for the day. You cant try to get, say, 4 miles in if you cant do all 4 at the pace you want, because its a different type of endurance. I disagree with the comment above, you might have the endurance to run a marathon, but you don't have the endurance to keep up the speed you want. To train for this run sub 7 for as far as you can and stop. Constantly do this, mixing in some mile repeats( only 3) and maybe some 800s ( max 7) this is how you get speed endurance, because it is completely different than long distance endurance. Good luck! |
2012-12-01 11:35 AM in reply to: #4517472 |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: working on speed TriMyBest - 2012-12-01 5:29 AM You're not limited by speed. It's endurance you lack. How much do you run weekly and how many months or years have you been doing it? ^^^^^This (probably) Get your running up to 40mpw consistently, mostly easy. (sometimes hard, but MOSTLY easy). The guy that passed you... he runs 50mpw. |
2012-12-01 11:44 AM in reply to: #4517450 |
Veteran 232 Ontario | Subject: RE: working on speed Unless you're already running 6-7 days a week I would say that running more is a safe bet for getting faster. Speed work has it's place and time in run training but should be left for those that have a solid running base or those that are very pressed for time. But I ain't no expert Edited by Jon bovi 2012-12-01 11:45 AM |
2012-12-01 12:19 PM in reply to: #4517635 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: working on speed XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 1:20 PM I disagree with the comment above, you might have the endurance to run a marathon, but you don't have the endurance to keep up the speed you want. It is interesting that you disagree with the idea that the OP needs to work on endurance and then go on to say they need to work on endurance. Shane |
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2012-12-01 12:22 PM in reply to: #4517635 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: working on speed XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 11:20 AM When you start going sub 7 and you get tired... Keep going sub 7. If you can only keep up sub 7 for a mile or two, so be it until you're too tired to continue and then thats your run for the day. You cant try to get, say, 4 miles in if you cant do all 4 at the pace you want, because its a different type of endurance. I disagree with the comment above, you might have the endurance to run a marathon, but you don't have the endurance to keep up the speed you want. To train for this run sub 7 for as far as you can and stop. Constantly do this, mixing in some mile repeats( only 3) and maybe some 800s ( max 7) this is how you get speed endurance, because it is completely different than long distance endurance. Good luck! More endurance can be used to run the same pace for a longer duration or to run the same duration at a faster pace. |
2012-12-01 12:29 PM in reply to: #4517678 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: working on speed gsmacleod - 2012-12-01 1:19 PM XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 1:20 PM I disagree with the comment above, you might have the endurance to run a marathon, but you don't have the endurance to keep up the speed you want. It is interesting that you disagree with the idea that the OP needs to work on endurance and then go on to say they need to work on endurance. Shanex2. Especially considering that I never said to run more, just that endurance was the limiter, not speed. I asked 2 questions to get more information to provide informed advice rather than making assumptions. |
2012-12-01 1:41 PM in reply to: #4517641 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: working on speed morey000 - 2012-12-01 11:35 AM TriMyBest - 2012-12-01 5:29 AM You're not limited by speed. It's endurance you lack. How much do you run weekly and how many months or years have you been doing it? ^^^^^This (probably) Get your running up to 40mpw consistently, mostly easy. (sometimes hard, but MOSTLY easy). The guy that passed you... he runs 50mpw. I doubt it....very few people run 200 miles per month. He may just have more years running....or maybe he's just talented. My 14 year old ran a 17:20 5K off the bike this year in a sprint....he never ran more than 20 miles in a week. There are lots of reasons that people can run faster than other people.....but I would agree, based only on what the OP posted so far, that the OP needs some long, slow, endurance work. If "your lungs can't handle it" then you are setting yourself up for injury to do alot of speed work now IMO. Edited by Left Brain 2012-12-01 1:44 PM |
2012-12-01 5:26 PM in reply to: #4517450 |
161 | Subject: RE: working on speed Again, I think it's completely different. Speed endurance and long distance endurance. If you can run really far that does not give you the endurance to run a short distance faster. I can run 10 miles at 8 min pace and not even get my breath or heart rate up, but if I run 400 m as fast as I can... I can't. I will have to slow down, because I will be too tired to keep up max speed for a whole 1/4 mile. They do slightly benefit each other, but not enough to improve results. |
2012-12-01 6:19 PM in reply to: #4517872 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: working on speed Well, again you don't have the endurance to go as fast as you want since you have to slow down. |
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2012-12-01 6:44 PM in reply to: #4517872 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: working on speed XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 4:26 PM Again, I think it's completely different. Speed endurance and long distance endurance. If you can run really far that does not give you the endurance to run a short distance faster. I can run 10 miles at 8 min pace and not even get my breath or heart rate up, but if I run 400 m as fast as I can... I can't. I will have to slow down, because I will be too tired to keep up max speed for a whole 1/4 mile. They do slightly benefit each other, but not enough to improve results. 400m all out is sort of a diff animal |
2012-12-02 2:58 PM in reply to: #4517872 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: working on speed XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 6:26 PM Again, I think it's completely different. Speed endurance and long distance endurance. If you can run really far that does not give you the endurance to run a short distance faster. I can run 10 miles at 8 min pace and not even get my breath or heart rate up, but if I run 400 m as fast as I can... I can't. I will have to slow down, because I will be too tired to keep up max speed for a whole 1/4 mile. They do slightly benefit each other, but not enough to improve results. A 400 and 10mi are two pretty different beasts. A 5k and a 10mi, not so much. The OP lacks endurance and does not need to run a lot of sub-7 min pace in training to reach his goals. There is no "speed" endurance different from "long distance" endurance. |
2012-12-02 3:56 PM in reply to: #4517872 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: working on speed XCtoTri - 2012-12-01 6:26 PM Again, I think it's completely different. Speed endurance and long distance endurance. If you can run really far that does not give you the endurance to run a short distance faster. I can run 10 miles at 8 min pace and not even get my breath or heart rate up, but if I run 400 m as fast as I can... I can't. I will have to slow down, because I will be too tired to keep up max speed for a whole 1/4 mile. They do slightly benefit each other, but not enough to improve results. As others have pointed out, a 400 and sprint tri are very different. Maybe this chart will help: A 400 takes approximately 1 minute. Efforts for such a short period of time utilize anaerobic energy pathways (Adenosine Triphosphate, Phosphocreatine, and Anaerobic Glycolysis). Energy for anything longer than about 4 minutes is provided almost entirely by aerobic pathways. So, whether it's a 5K, sprint tri, marathon, or ironman, the primary limiter of performance in healthy individuals is the efficiency of their aerobic system. In other words, endurance. Here's another fun graphic to help illustrate it: |
2012-12-02 4:42 PM in reply to: #4517741 |
Extreme Veteran 415 | Subject: RE: working on speed Left Brain - 2012-12-01 2:41 PM morey000 - 2012-12-01 11:35 AM TriMyBest - 2012-12-01 5:29 AM You're not limited by speed. It's endurance you lack. How much do you run weekly and how many months or years have you been doing it? ^^^^^This (probably) Get your running up to 40mpw consistently, mostly easy. (sometimes hard, but MOSTLY easy). The guy that passed you... he runs 50mpw. I doubt it....very few people run 200 miles per month. He may just have more years running....or maybe he's just talented. My 14 year old ran a 17:20 5K off the bike this year in a sprint....he never ran more than 20 miles in a week. There are lots of reasons that people can run faster than other people.....but I would agree, based only on what the OP posted so far, that the OP needs some long, slow, endurance work. If "your lungs can't handle it" then you are setting yourself up for injury to do alot of speed work now IMO.
I agree with this response. Over the last 4 years I have tried everything to running slower, faster, longer, 6-7 days a week easy, ect. I only run 4 days a week, sometimes 3 and between 15-20 miles a week at the most. For me doing sprint distances, less running was needed. I have gone thru a couple of injury periods (shin splints, stress fx,ect.) and personally my body doesn't do well with running consistant day after day. Each person is different; you need to figure out what works best for you. Distance is important, and adding some speed sessions running off the bike have personally helped me. I had the same issue--would swim well, bike great, and fade off on the run. The past couple of years when I have focused on a good recovery,stretching, after each run, no matter how short , long, fast or slow-I started to see some improvements. I use to almost tread getting off the bike at T2 and runnig during a race; now I look forward to it. My run is no longer the fade-factor in a race for me. Helped me with a 1st place, 2- 4th places, and a 10th AG placing this year! Keep trying and do what works best for you. Good luck |
2012-12-02 4:55 PM in reply to: #4518505 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: working on speed tigers75 - 2012-12-02 4:42 PM I agree with this response. Over the last 4 years I have tried everything to running slower, faster, longer, 6-7 days a week easy, ect. I only run 4 days a week, sometimes 3 and between 15-20 miles a week at the most. For me doing sprint distances, less running was needed. I have gone thru a couple of injury periods (shin splints, stress fx,ect.) and personally my body doesn't do well with running consistant day after day. Each person is different; you need to figure out what works best for you. Distance is important, and adding some speed sessions running off the bike have personally helped me. I had the same issue--would swim well, bike great, and fade off on the run. The past couple of years when I have focused on a good recovery,stretching, after each run, no matter how short , long, fast or slow-I started to see some improvements. I use to almost tread getting off the bike at T2 and runnig during a race; now I look forward to it. My run is no longer the fade-factor in a race for me. Helped me with a 1st place, 2- 4th places, and a 10th AG placing this year! Keep trying and do what works best for you. Good luck Actually, that's not what he's saying. The point was more to point out that there could be a number of reasons why a particular person is faster than another at a point in time. Considering that who you think you agree with is one of the co-founders of the "30 runs in 30 days" and is encouraging of people joining or trying it, I would think he's more for the easier consistent running. He's at 84 straight days of running, fyi. |
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2012-12-02 8:17 PM in reply to: #4517450 |
Master 2563 University Park, MD | Subject: RE: working on speed zaugfear - 2012-12-01 7:33 AM My goal for next season is to place in my age group at a few of the local sprint tri's. Based of this past years results, my swim and bike times are on par but my 5k run time is where I lose it. I ran a 22:15 at my last tri and got 4th because the 3rd place guy passed me during the run. This is the second time this has happened...ahh..As I work on speed by doing more high intensity intervals, hill repeats, fartlek runs, etc. I notice it's not my legs that's preventing me from going faster, it's my lungs. As soon as I start running under 7 min miles, I get out of breath and have to slow down to recover....Should I be doing something else to work on my vo2/lung capacity? is this normal when trying to get faster? Your race logs don't include sprint race results, but based on the data from your longer races, I'm not sure that I'd agree with your assessment that you're doing fine on the swim/bike and that it's the run that's holding you back. It looks like you're relatively evenly matched, and if anything your run might be your stronger event. Sure, you might get passed on the run leg in a race, but that's because there are some folks out there whose strengths across the 3 sports are seriously imbalanced. I pass loads of people on the run, but that doesn't make them poor runners; it just shows that I lose a lot of time on the S/B, relative to my run fitness. As for the broader do-you-need-speedwork discussion, I've got to agree with the others that are recommending frequency and volume first. And I'm speaking as somebody who would love to do more speedwork if I could. But the frequent steady running sure does well for building speed over 5k+. |