General Discussion Triathlon Talk » HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium Rss Feed  
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2012-12-05 3:21 PM

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Subject: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
Executive summary - the cheating going on at the Olympic distance was blatant, unrepentant, pervasive, intentional, and all sort of other descriptors. It was ridiculous. If it was a WTC race, we would have a 30 page thread on it by now. But HITs seems to get a pass on this issue for some reason. Yeah, the RD was great. Personal transition areas were cool. So what?

Disclaimer and my vantage point. This is only offered for two reasons, first to establish where I was to see what I saw, and second as a backdoor brag. I started this season, as every other, as a Clydesdale. I've lost a bunch of weight, and this was the first race that I
could not have raced that division even under current rules. I was super thrilled with my results in a "regular" AG (at least through the swim and bike, the run, well...). And nothing that I saw appeared to keep me off a podium, so this isn't just sour grapes on my part. But it recalls a post in another thread by someone else.... ST is watching you, even if the RD isn't

I exited the two loop swim (great swim, by the way, although the swimming lifeguards was a weird touch) 8th OA male. About where I expected. Got on the bike and within
the first 3-4 miles passed 4 guys and was 4th OA at the turn. Now most of you don't know me, so you don't know how momentous this is for me. I have never, not once, since starting racing in 2004, gained spots on the bike. I am sure the guys coming the other way were thinking "what the hell is HE doing up here???" I certainly was. Ended up 5th OA male coming into transition, thinking holy sh$$! Was stoked beyond belief to be there (yeah, it's a small off season race, but if you show up, you race). But since it's swim/bike/run, it was all downhill from there. Might have overcooked the bike a touch, I am undertrained, and dealing with a foot injury, and well, I am a slow runner even fully healthy. So I had the chance to see most everyone that ended up on the OA or AG podium pass me on the run. Ended up 28th OA/25th male/5th AG.

Drafting - I saw the entire field coming the other way to the turnaround. I did not notice anyone obviously drafting, and hard to tell at that speed if someone was passing or
drafting or.... However, and this is all hearsay, I 've read reports on BT of half distance winners drafting off others and telling other racers things to the effect of "HITS doesn't marshall the course, let's work together." (the author refused and had to slow down to get the cheater off their wheel). There's a report of a jerseyed team in a pace line with a car in front filming it. Nearly every report of the longer distances reports drafting.  ETA - Props to BT's amymengel for declining the offer to cheat.  She's a good steward for the sport.

Not a single course marshall.

Course Cutting - This I saw. For those not familiar, the course exits a park and runs along an access road that curves around the lake, then east onto 58th Avenue. About 1.5 miles in the run course turns left onto Madison for about 1.5 miles, out and back. About 1.2 miles into the run, on 58th, a sidewalk starts that parallels the street, but which curves
back and forth. At this point on the run, I noticed there were cones directing runners to the sidewalk, and a faint purple chalk writing with arrows to the sidewalk. At the pre-race meeting just before the swim (so, presumably everyone was there), the RD said that they did not have permits to run on the street, and the run course was on the sidewalk, and that there was plenty of room. The aid stations were on the sidewalk path. The race course was on the curvy sidewalk from where it began about 1.2 miles in to the turnaround and back again.

As I was running on Madison, about 2 miles in, saw the first guy running straight along the street. I couldn't see his number clearly, but he had a distinctive Los Angeles area tri shop kit on, so I knew I'd be able to figure it out. I debated with myself and eventually decided I wouldn't report the number, but would tell the RD they needed to get someone out there patrolling the next time. Then I saw another, and a couple more, and eventually could not hold my tongue. I started calling out that the course was on the path, and that they
were cutting and cheating. Most looked at me and ignored me. One actually had the balls to say "I'm just following what these guys are doing" pointing to the two guys in front of him. I called out one guy as he was passing me on the way back, wearing a Jimmie Johnson race jersey... at least he got on the path, but not without a sarcastic "yes sir." I probably saw 20-30 people cutting the course, or more. it was hard to keep track and eventually I gave up saying anything because I would have been constantly talking. It was over 10% of the field.

I am happy to say that the top 10 or so guys and 5 or so ladies were all running on the sidewalk. But I know for a fact the first guy I saw took a podium spot, in my AG. Didn't cost me a spot because I would not have caught him. But still, in my opinion he cut the course on his way to a podium. There were likely others but I couldn't keep track of all the numbers.

You cannot tell me that the cutting was not intentional. I and at least two other
people (including monty) called them on it. The course was on the path, as announced, the aid stations were on the path. Most people were on the path.

One might argue that the course maps on line and handed out were ambiguous, as they showed straight lines on the street. But - the written description says left "on sidewalk." The RD announced the course. And, the cutters would have to ask themselves why other folks, including the OA winners, were running a longer course by running the sidewalk.

You also cannot tell me that they did not gain an advantage. Recall that the half run was a mile long because they measured the street, and not the path. here's a link to a screen shot of the left turn, you can see the curvy path compared to the street.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/...Cgj9o70&sadssc=1

And, as it turns out, an advantage isn't even necessary for a course cutting violation, but it might be a DQ if there is an advantage gained. The HITS website states that it follows USAT rule 3.4, which it actually cites in the athlete guide:

3.4 Race Conduct.
All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this
Section 3.4:

a.Entire Course. Participants must cover the prescribed course in
its entirety. It is the
participant’s responsibility to know the course. Any violation of
this section, even if no advantage
is gained, shall result in a variable time penalty,
unless the Head Referee in his sole
discretion determines that (i) the violation was
substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage,
  or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l). In the event the Head Referee makes such a determination, the penalty shall be disqualification

Was it a substantial unfair time advantage? You look at the map and tell me whether, over
the course of a 10K, there was one. Sure seems like it to me. Of course, as with the bike, there was not a single marshall or, other than aid stations, race employee to direct runners on the course. Can a course even have USAT cert if it does not provide any enforcement of the rules? Isn't there some sort of standard of conduct required to maintain USAT certification?

I hope HITS survives. It was a decent race other than the blatant cheating ("but how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"), but if it wants to be taken seriously they'll have to spend the money to get some marshalls on the course. I have friends that say "well, I race my race clean, I can't worry about cheaters." I understand that, but shouldn't we worry about
them? Or is it just the age of Lance continued, that if a marshall doesn't catch them, if no penalty is handed out - in short, if they got away with it - then it's OK. Is that OK to anyone here? It's not to me, and I think if we want the sport to continue to be taken seriously, we need to call these things out. If not to the cheaters, then to the RDs who then are on notice of what they need to do.


Edited by ChrisM 2012-12-05 3:26 PM


2012-12-05 4:33 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Thanks for posting.

It's crazy what some people will do.

HITS has really stepped up their game in the past year, so it seems, but this REALLY needs some attention.  I'm hoping that by AGers talking about this, HITS will give this sort of issue the attention it deserves - like hire a few officials to be present on the course -  and maybe even design courses that are harder to cut.

2012-12-05 5:28 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Well, most important, congrats on your performance. I know not getting a podium spot due to cheaters really sucks and it's really messed up that they can take those slots knowing what they did.

But you asked if it was OK. I certainly don't think so. Just the idea of people cheating is really obnoxious but it's even more infuriating when this cheating knocks true competitors out of top slots. 

I did a HM a while back that had a very similar situation. The course was on a winding path and tons of people cut over and just ran on the road (in oncoming traffic mind you.) I guess there should have been two separate podium spots. One for the HM race and one for a 12.5 mile race Smile

2012-12-05 6:05 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
Chris, congratulations on a great performance! Very impressive and well deserved; too bad the cheating left a bad taste in your mouth and taken some of the joy out of your performance.

Nonetheless, great work for not only competing cleanly but also for calling out those who were cheating. For those of us who value clean sport, it is imperative that we not only compete within the rules of our sport but make it uncomfortable for those who compete outisde the rules.

Congrats again - very impressive race!

Shane
2012-12-05 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
It's not OK in my book.  I can understand if you don't have anyone visibile in front of you, and you miss the chalk... i'll give credit for an honest mistake.  But if there's a huge pack of people taking the long way around and you're by yourself on the short course that's a big problem.
2012-12-05 6:45 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

ChrisM - 2012-12-05 4:21 PM I called out one guy as he was passing me on the way back, wearing a Jimmie Johnson race jersey... at least he got on the path, but not without a sarcastic "yes sir."

Didn't Jimmy Johnson race the Oly distance?



2012-12-05 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

I think the RD does have to make sure the course is more well marked/separated so it's more obvious to not cut the course by running the street. 

 

In the majority of road races, street/sidewalk parallels, and usually it's not considered a big deal to jump off one to the other to pass unless you're a professional competing for money. 

 

I could easily see how an AGer, hanging onto a guy ahead of him for dear life and shooting for a PR, would follow that guy onto the street and not sidewalk in the delirium of a race.

 

Definitely not saying it's right, but sounds like a situation where a lot of even well-meaning people could get sidetracked easily, especially if they were hanging on to a group that seemed like they knew what they were doing on the course. 

 

Surprised that the drafting wasn't an issue!

2012-12-05 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Chris, thanks for posting and know that it wasn't just in the Oly.  I agree with all the other posters, cheating is wrong regardless.  This type of thing hurts the sport.  

I will share one piece of firsthand information.  I completed the Half distance race and I did see the full team drafting, following the car and filming.  While I agree they were in violation of the rules I made note of their kits and stayed for the awards to call them on it if any of them was on the podium... they were not.  To be honest they appeared to be less racing than they were participating and filming for some kind of promotional video.  I say this because their pace was not anywhere near what it would have been with a pack of about 8 riders.  

The sadder part was the large groups who were drafting in an effort to gain some advantage.  I saw several large groups in pace lines easily passing other single riders who were following the rules, this was sad. 

I hope that the HITS folks hear the complaints and heed them for next year.  I took the time to share what I had seen with the RD and several others as I was leaving transition. Hopefully they will have Marshals on the course next time.

 

2012-12-05 8:15 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
STut - 2012-12-05 7:48 PM

Chris, thanks for posting and know that it wasn't just in the Oly.  I agree with all the other posters, cheating is wrong regardless.  This type of thing hurts the sport.  

I will share one piece of firsthand information.  I completed the Half distance race and I did see the full team drafting, following the car and filming.  While I agree they were in violation of the rules I made note of their kits and stayed for the awards to call them on it if any of them was on the podium... they were not.  To be honest they appeared to be less racing than they were participating and filming for some kind of promotional video.  I say this because their pace was not anywhere near what it would have been with a pack of about 8 riders.  

The sadder part was the large groups who were drafting in an effort to gain some advantage.  I saw several large groups in pace lines easily passing other single riders who were following the rules, this was sad. 

I hope that the HITS folks hear the complaints and heed them for next year.  I took the time to share what I had seen with the RD and several others as I was leaving transition. Hopefully they will have Marshals on the course next time.

 

[/QUOTEThey all finished in front of me, at least on the bike and I was 3rd in my AG for the full. So I would assume some of them got podium spots. I was told they finished right in front of me as a group on the run. They probably were more in just training mode, but pretty sure one of them was in my AG and beat me by a few minutes overall. I saw most of the people running on the road after it got dark in the second half of the run mainly I assume because the sidewalk/grass area was completely dark. I saw two people walking on the side of the road complaining that they couldn't see anything without car lights.
2012-12-06 12:51 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
rjrankin83 - 2012-12-05 4:45 PM

ChrisM - 2012-12-05 4:21 PM I called out one guy as he was passing me on the way back, wearing a Jimmie Johnson race jersey... at least he got on the path, but not without a sarcastic "yes sir."

Didn't Jimmy Johnson race the Oly distance?

Yes he did and finished towards the top!
2012-12-06 1:05 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

My son is very fast.....he wins local races easily...and if he doesn't win regionals, he's close.  I make it a point to drive/ride/run the course with him before every race...because he wants to win and it's never out of the realm of possibility, so I help him be prepared.

He's young so his/my experience with this is fairly limited because he hasn't raced alot,  because of his age, and I have no experience with leading a race.

That being said........it's crazy how screwed up the first folks can get on a course.  Sometimes it's the fault of the volunteers who tell the leaders wrong directions, and sometimes it's the fault of the racers (my son included) who don't know/forget the route, sometimes the course is marked wrong......whatever.  It's not ALWAYS cheating.....it's just confusion.

My son has missed an OA win twice because of dubious circumstances.  It is what it is.  For him, it's always a lesson.....if it were me I may feel different never having had that chance so I surely hear you.  

Nice race Chris!  Keep at it.......you'll get your time.  I'm hesitant to call "cheat"......this sport is sometimes such a mess.



Edited by Left Brain 2012-12-06 1:28 AM


2012-12-06 8:00 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
nice job.

nice post.
2012-12-06 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
It's simply incomprehensible to me why ANYONE would cheat on a tri course (or any sport for that matter). What are you gaining? You KNOW your time wasn't legit. What's the point? (I know WHY some do it, but still....). Maybe some people really fool themselves. I don't know. I would rather walk away from the sport than even consider cheating on a course. I'm testing myself and my fitness. Why throw away all the hard work and sweat by cutting a course? Pathetic.
2012-12-06 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
Congratulations on a stellar race and a landmark season, Chris!!  I'm sorry to hear about the drafting and course cutting that left a bad taste in your mouth.  I hope that the memory of your accomplishments will end up being the thing you remember most - great job!!!
2012-12-06 5:40 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Well, it wasn't meant so much as a backdoor...  front door?  brag, but I'll take it 

Yeah, yazmaster and Left Brain, I get that people make mistakes, and there's room for that.  I've been in races where I just go where people tell me to because I am so out of it.

This was different though, mainly for the reasons that the sidewalk and street were pretty far apart for the most part.  This wasn't a typical sidewalk right on the street issue, there was a fairly good sized grassy area between them.  And I was telling them they were off course.

At any rate, there are situations where someone makes a mistake (but, to be honest, that's still a violation, does not have to be intentional), but this was not that.

2012-12-06 5:56 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

I wonder if they could put an aid station on the sidewalk near where you are supposed to divert to the sidewalk.  That way if a racer chooses to stay on the road, not only will he miss the aid station, but a whole bunch of volunteers will see him going the wrong way.



2012-12-06 9:21 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium
Here's an idea. Just don't do their race anymore.
2012-12-06 9:51 PM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

paddy has the answer, don't give them your money!  Of course it's not right, or fair, or honest. But, that's part of our everyday lives, cheaters are everywhere, in every aspect of society.  Personally, I don't concern myself with those things which are out of my control, I worry about my conduct.  I race against my previous time and the goal I have set for a particular event. Worrying about whose doing what on the course during a race is totally counter productive and a waste of positive energy, energy that is better utilized in going FASTER!

 

2012-12-07 6:31 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Paddy1 - 2012-12-07 3:21 AM Here's an idea. Just don't do their race anymore.

You could vote with your wallet, but if your alternative is to only do races where nobody has ever gotten away with drafting or course cutting your options are going to be slim.

I hope they do start marshalling the course better as the series matures, however I just dont see it as one of their priorities at present.  The vibe I got from doing one of their races is its more about getting the general population to come out, do a triathlon and enjoy themselves.  So priorities are going to be more focused on improving course safety, portable toilets, aid stations etc.  Once they've got that nailed they might start spending money on making racers happy.  Again, all my opinion.

2012-12-07 7:50 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

Chris, great post, and congrats.

I don't think not giving the race your money is the answer, as this could potentially reduce your options or the number of races.

And even though cheaters don't change "your" race and execution physically, it does affect your mental state, and your overall happiness with the race.

It is a shame that some people will ignore the rules just because they can. It isn't just a "no harm, no foul" situation.

I do wish RD were better able to police their races. Maybe a solution is to have more volunteers or racers supporting the race? Perhaps "hidden" race marshals, like secret shoppers...you get to race for free, but are there to do a job???

2012-12-07 7:59 AM
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Subject: RE: HITS Palm Springs 2012 - Drafting and Course Cutting Your Way To The Podium

People often complain about IM branded events and the cost associated with them, but guess what?  They are well run, well marshaled, have adequate facilities on the course and the volunteers are awesome.  Furthermore, they have a history of putting on great races and know what it takes to do so.  IMO, paying a few extra dollars is almost always worth it for the long course races.  Plus the extra cost is worth it just to see/hear Mike Reilly (but that's a different topic).

And thanks for your honest assessment of everything.  I really enjoying hearing racers perspectives on some of these races.



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