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2013-06-06 1:49 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

So, I think I know the answer, but just want the group's confirmation....  Have a mini sprint this weekend, .5/6/2.  It's a good course for swimmers. 

The bike course is two 3 mile loops, semi technical with a few hundred yards of straightaways, 4 doglegs,  two 180 degree turns, and two sweeping downhills followed by a sharp bitey 50 yd uphill.

So.....  aero helmet and disc?  Will I be that guy?  You know, the guy I used to laugh at?

Looking to podium in a non-clyde AG but also training through it, so taking it semi seriously.



2013-06-06 2:11 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by ChrisM

So, I think I know the answer, but just want the group's confirmation....  Have a mini sprint this weekend, .5/6/2.  It's a good course for swimmers. 

The bike course is two 3 mile loops, semi technical with a few hundred yards of straightaways, 4 doglegs,  two 180 degree turns, and two sweeping downhills followed by a sharp bitey 50 yd uphill.

So.....  aero helmet and disc?  Will I be that guy?  You know, the guy I used to laugh at?

Looking to podium in a non-clyde AG but also training through it, so taking it semi seriously.




Sounds like every second will count on a course like this - be that guy!
2013-06-06 2:12 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
2013-06-06 2:22 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

if you got it flaunt it Chris

2013-06-06 2:30 PM
in reply to: kcarroll

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by kcarroll

Question for the group on bike maintenance. One of my goals next winter will be to take a maintenance class at the LBS. I have no illusions that I will be doing a great deal of my own work, but I've always felt like I should be self-sufficient on the basics. I can change out wheels/tires/tubes etc. I also had a linker put on my chain so I can clean things up better on my own. I have no idea how to adjust derailleur or much else. The question is...how often should I clean my bike and what should this entail other than wiping it down after I ride (which I do...most of the time, always if it's raining)? I know this is dependent on how much you ride and under what conditions but would appreciate any thoughts or insight as to what you do for basic upkeep. 


Here in Hawaii I find that you have to clean your bike on a regular basis. It doesn't rain here a lot, but there is enough moisture and especially salt (from the ocean) in the air where you need to use wet lube to prevent rust. Using wet lube then attracts dirt and road grime into your chain meaning you need to clean it more often. I'll usually wiped down my bike after every ride, and completely remove the chain to soak in degreaser and relube every 2-3 weeks if I'm riding often. It's not so much because the chain needs more lube, it's simply because it gets way too dirty for my liking.

As far as wrenching skills, I think everyone should learn how to remove/install a cassette, adjust their brakes, and adjust their derailleurs. It's really not that hard, and all you need is very simple tools. The cassetter removal needs the most tools (chain whip, adjustable wrench, and lockring tool) but is the easiest to do. Everything else is just a 4 or 5 mm allen wrench and a philips screw driver. As with anything, it just takes practice to get a feel for it. Once you learn it, you will scoff at yourself for ever driving to a LBS to have these simple things done and actually pay for it.
2013-06-06 2:42 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by ChrisM

So, I think I know the answer, but just want the group's confirmation....  Have a mini sprint this weekend, .5/6/2.  It's a good course for swimmers. 

The bike course is two 3 mile loops, semi technical with a few hundred yards of straightaways, 4 doglegs,  two 180 degree turns, and two sweeping downhills followed by a sharp bitey 50 yd uphill.

So.....  aero helmet and disc?  Will I be that guy?  You know, the guy I used to laugh at?

Looking to podium in a non-clyde AG but also training through it, so taking it semi seriously.




I actually enjoy being "that guy" when it comes to having bike equipment.


2013-06-06 2:47 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by tri808
Originally posted by ChrisM

So, I think I know the answer, but just want the group's confirmation....  Have a mini sprint this weekend, .5/6/2.  It's a good course for swimmers. 

The bike course is two 3 mile loops, semi technical with a few hundred yards of straightaways, 4 doglegs,  two 180 degree turns, and two sweeping downhills followed by a sharp bitey 50 yd uphill.

So.....  aero helmet and disc?  Will I be that guy?  You know, the guy I used to laugh at?

Looking to podium in a non-clyde AG but also training through it, so taking it semi seriously.

I actually enjoy being "that guy" when it comes to having bike equipment.

Me, too, now that I have a tri-bike and a disc!!  Who cares if it's used (I certainly can't), and it bothers me not a whit if a stronger rider passes me riding a big-wheel or such (well, it bothers me to get passed at all, but never because of the bike, and I never feel like I have to justify what I'm riding, either).

All good fun and healthy competition, right?  Run the disc!!!

Matt

2013-06-06 2:51 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

And speaking of healthy competition (the 45-49 AG 'round here turns out to be NUTS), here is my RR from last weekend:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/RaceLog/races-view-container.asp?raceid=248548 

This was my first of the year and third in the last year (two sprints last Fall) since a couple decade hiatus from the sport.

Loved this race, even though (or because?) I did it on a whim and the day after a short race.  Was concerned about 2 races in 1 weekend, but the BT community said to HTFU... and I had a BLAST!

Matt

2013-06-06 2:53 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by tri808



Thanks Marc,

This Sunday I hope to get an even better measure of my FTP. Hopefully I'll be fully recovered from Honu by then, but maybe not. The last 40k TT I did I paced it very conservatively knowing I had not tapered at all for it and ran 14 miles the day before. Honu was still the priority at that point.

While I held 262 last month, I have a feeling I could have gone about 5 watts higher fully rested. But my goal is not going to be to start out at 267-270 and just hold it there. I have a huge problem of jumping out of the gates too hard and then get ideas of grandeur that I can hold my wattage higher than originally thought. You know how it goes...you jump out at 340+ watts then slowly let it slip down to 280...then think maybe you can hold 280 because you're feeling good early on even though you know it's above your goal.

So my strategy is after the initial acceleration, to take the next 3-4 minutes below overall goal wattage so that my AP is below goal wattage by a couple of watts. Then work it up from there slowly. I think mentally it's a better way to approach it for me.

My 5 minute peak on my tri bike this season is somewhere around 330 if I recall correctly...but that was at the end of a 5x5 set. If I went out and purposely tried to set a new 5' personal best on the tri bike, I think it would be closer to 335-340. Last year my peak 5' on the road bike was aroudn 366...but that was after an entire summer of riding a lot.


Very helpful.

The wrong way to do it is the way I do it. Go out too hard for a minute, dig myself into a hole, start dropping, try to slow down the drop, dig myself into a bigger. hole and blow up. I did it twice in the last week and it through me for a complete loop.

On Sat I had to do a 4 min test. I wanted around 350-360. Went out the first minute at 405 and was down to 300 by 2.5min, pushed to get back up to 370 and blew up at 3 min. Blew up. Actually threw up.
Redid the test the next day. Negative split it and hit 360.
Being the idiot I am, I did the same stupidity on a 15min TT and blew up 3 days later and almost threw my bike in the river.

Your numbers make a lot of sense and they show that the CP calculator overestimates our FTP. If you can do 5 min at 330, 30min at 286, it says your CP is 277 and FTP at 282 which is probably higher than it really is.

Speaking to a guy, people that use the 20' test get even worst estimates in their FTP

If you targeted 210 on 265ish for you HIM it sounds like you were targeting the right number. You seem to have better control over your numbers and pacing than me,

2013-06-06 3:42 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

I know (as a 20'/5' test protocol guy) that for me it's been mentall easier to build up to the ending average than start too har and hold on as I watch it fall.  my ending average for the most recent 20' test was up 10-20 watts (i really don't recall...  i was a littel preoccupied with pain) from what I saw in the first five minutes.

I know there is disagreement re: best way to test it, but I think as long as it's a consistent repeatable method it's fine.   But as far as effectiveness, if the FTP is overstated, that will come out in training, no?  i.e., if you set 100% intervals based on that FTP and you can barely hold on for 5' something is wrong

2013-06-06 4:21 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
The trouble I'm going to have this Sunday is that the TT starts into a head/crosswind and finishes with a cross/tailwind. I'm going to have to fight the urge to apply more power fighting the wind early on, and it's going to be harder to keep the power up with the tailwind at around 28+ mph.

We'll see how it goes though.


2013-06-06 4:34 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by ChrisM

So, I think I know the answer, but just want the group's confirmation....  Have a mini sprint this weekend, .5/6/2.  It's a good course for swimmers. 

The bike course is two 3 mile loops, semi technical with a few hundred yards of straightaways, 4 doglegs,  two 180 degree turns, and two sweeping downhills followed by a sharp bitey 50 yd uphill.

So.....  aero helmet and disc?  Will I be that guy?  You know, the guy I used to laugh at?

Looking to podium in a non-clyde AG but also training through it, so taking it semi seriously.

If it's a race, I'm bringing my stuff.

2013-06-06 4:39 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by tri808 Thanks Marc, This Sunday I hope to get an even better measure of my FTP. Hopefully I'll be fully recovered from Honu by then, but maybe not. The last 40k TT I did I paced it very conservatively knowing I had not tapered at all for it and ran 14 miles the day before. Honu was still the priority at that point. While I held 262 last month, I have a feeling I could have gone about 5 watts higher fully rested. But my goal is not going to be to start out at 267-270 and just hold it there. I have a huge problem of jumping out of the gates too hard and then get ideas of grandeur that I can hold my wattage higher than originally thought. You know how it goes...you jump out at 340+ watts then slowly let it slip down to 280...then think maybe you can hold 280 because you're feeling good early on even though you know it's above your goal. So my strategy is after the initial acceleration, to take the next 3-4 minutes below overall goal wattage so that my AP is below goal wattage by a couple of watts. Then work it up from there slowly. I think mentally it's a better way to approach it for me. My 5 minute peak on my tri bike this season is somewhere around 330 if I recall correctly...but that was at the end of a 5x5 set. If I went out and purposely tried to set a new 5' personal best on the tri bike, I think it would be closer to 335-340. Last year my peak 5' on the road bike was aroudn 366...but that was after an entire summer of riding a lot.
Very helpful. The wrong way to do it is the way I do it. Go out too hard for a minute, dig myself into a hole, start dropping, try to slow down the drop, dig myself into a bigger. hole and blow up. I did it twice in the last week and it through me for a complete loop. On Sat I had to do a 4 min test. I wanted around 350-360. Went out the first minute at 405 and was down to 300 by 2.5min, pushed to get back up to 370 and blew up at 3 min. Blew up. Actually threw up. Redid the test the next day. Negative split it and hit 360. Being the idiot I am, I did the same stupidity on a 15min TT and blew up 3 days later and almost threw my bike in the river. Your numbers make a lot of sense and they show that the CP calculator overestimates our FTP. If you can do 5 min at 330, 30min at 286, it says your CP is 277 and FTP at 282 which is probably higher than it really is. Speaking to a guy, people that use the 20' test get even worst estimates in their FTP If you targeted 210 on 265ish for you HIM it sounds like you were targeting the right number. You seem to have better control over your numbers and pacing than me,

Keep working on building into the hard efforts and you should hit targets better. So many don't realize how much it takes out of them even though it "feels" like they have loads of energy. The fatigue just doesn't show up right away. Even when shooting for like 380 on some intervals in the past, I'd rarely get up to 385, let alone 400. And this high up were ones I'd go out more aggressively too.

2013-06-06 6:15 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
FYI Everyone

I put in a request to Ron to have this group start again new in the main mentor forum. I submitted the first post in the staging area, it's just a matter of Ron moving into the main mentor area live.
2013-06-07 11:15 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by brigby1 

If it's a race, I'm bringing my stuff.

Agreed.

What's all this talk about cleaning your bike???  

2013-06-07 11:19 AM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by tri808 The trouble I'm going to have this Sunday is that the TT starts into a head/crosswind and finishes with a cross/tailwind. I'm going to have to fight the urge to apply more power fighting the wind early on, and it's going to be harder to keep the power up with the tailwind at around 28+ mph. We'll see how it goes though.

That's a tough one for sure.

I think I'm a bit weird in that I find it tougher to maintain a particular power when going into the wind and slower than downwind and faster (as long as I'm not spinning out).  I'm sure it's in my head.



2013-06-07 12:03 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.
2013-06-07 12:30 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by tri808 The trouble I'm going to have this Sunday is that the TT starts into a head/crosswind and finishes with a cross/tailwind. I'm going to have to fight the urge to apply more power fighting the wind early on, and it's going to be harder to keep the power up with the tailwind at around 28+ mph. We'll see how it goes though.

That's a tough one for sure.

I think I'm a bit weird in that I find it tougher to maintain a particular power when going into the wind and slower than downwind and faster (as long as I'm not spinning out).  I'm sure it's in my head.




I actually know what you mean. I find that going 25-27 mph with a slight tailwind is slightly easier to apply power. I think it's because the resistance in the "dead spots" of our pedal stroke are reduced. The problem with riding with the tailwind is keeping the power constant unless you're really paying attention.
2013-06-07 12:53 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.

not racing but I am going to go sign my new lease for my move next week.  This means that in one week I'll be living in a place I can bike again. 

2013-06-07 12:54 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by axteraa

Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.


I'm heading up to the inlaws and then planning on driving to the site of a July Olympic race and then ride the course a couple of times and run some of it. New course for me, and it's kind of a cool race. They cap the race at only 300 because they take you out into the middle of the lake on a couple of classic paddleboats (limited space) and drop you off, and you then swim back to shore. Racing with/against friends so this one by default becomes an A race.
2013-06-07 1:07 PM
in reply to: bzgl40

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by bzgl40

Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.

not racing but I am going to go sign my new lease for my move next week.  This means that in one week I'll be living in a place I can bike again. 

That definitely qualifies as exciting!



2013-06-07 1:08 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Originally posted by GoFaster
Originally posted by axteraa Anyone have any races this weekend or anything else exciting?  We are getting the remnants of the tropical storm passing through Sat and Sun so it could be a bit messy with wind and rain.  I'm hoping to get out on the bike for 3 hours early tomorrow to beat the rain.
I'm heading up to the inlaws and then planning on driving to the site of a July Olympic race and then ride the course a couple of times and run some of it. New course for me, and it's kind of a cool race. They cap the race at only 300 because they take you out into the middle of the lake on a couple of classic paddleboats (limited space) and drop you off, and you then swim back to shore. Racing with/against friends so this one by default becomes an A race.

That's really cool, where is the race?

2013-06-07 1:10 PM
in reply to: tri808

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by tri808
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by tri808 The trouble I'm going to have this Sunday is that the TT starts into a head/crosswind and finishes with a cross/tailwind. I'm going to have to fight the urge to apply more power fighting the wind early on, and it's going to be harder to keep the power up with the tailwind at around 28+ mph. We'll see how it goes though.

That's a tough one for sure.

I think I'm a bit weird in that I find it tougher to maintain a particular power when going into the wind and slower than downwind and faster (as long as I'm not spinning out).  I'm sure it's in my head.

I actually know what you mean. I find that going 25-27 mph with a slight tailwind is slightly easier to apply power. I think it's because the resistance in the "dead spots" of our pedal stroke are reduced. The problem with riding with the tailwind is keeping the power constant unless you're really paying attention.

I think it's because the wind not only affects the resistance, but our balance as well. It's hard to focus on working very hard when we also have to worry about staying upright. So the more disruptive the wind is towards your balance, the harder it will be to push yourself. When going more with the wind, I feel a lot less of it, so it's less disruptive.

Sometimes I get the feeling that no matter how hard I work going into the wind that my speed is still awful, so I'm less inclined to work as hard because it doesn't seem to make a difference. And then vice versa when going with the wind. My mind sees the added speed and wants to get every bit it can out of it.

2013-06-07 1:28 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Originally posted by brigby1
Originally posted by tri808
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by tri808 The trouble I'm going to have this Sunday is that the TT starts into a head/crosswind and finishes with a cross/tailwind. I'm going to have to fight the urge to apply more power fighting the wind early on, and it's going to be harder to keep the power up with the tailwind at around 28+ mph. We'll see how it goes though.

That's a tough one for sure.

I think I'm a bit weird in that I find it tougher to maintain a particular power when going into the wind and slower than downwind and faster (as long as I'm not spinning out).  I'm sure it's in my head.

I actually know what you mean. I find that going 25-27 mph with a slight tailwind is slightly easier to apply power. I think it's because the resistance in the "dead spots" of our pedal stroke are reduced. The problem with riding with the tailwind is keeping the power constant unless you're really paying attention.

I think it's because the wind not only affects the resistance, but our balance as well. It's hard to focus on working very hard when we also have to worry about staying upright. So the more disruptive the wind is towards your balance, the harder it will be to push yourself. When going more with the wind, I feel a lot less of it, so it's less disruptive.

Sometimes I get the feeling that no matter how hard I work going into the wind that my speed is still awful, so I'm less inclined to work as hard because it doesn't seem to make a difference. And then vice versa when going with the wind. My mind sees the added speed and wants to get every bit it can out of it.

I actually wonder if your mind is on to something from a physics standpoint, as well.  I'll noodle this a bit and see if I can figure it out with maths, but here goes for a thought you've sparked in my (work-addled) mind.

Given: Speed is all we care about maximizing while racing - not Wattage (with apologies to other power nuts).  Quite the opposite wrt Wattage - we care about optimizing it (basically minimizing for a given speed or maximizing speed for a given W).

Given:  Each incremental increase in speed is disproportionately harder than the previous increment, largely due to frictional resistance from the air (minimally from the road).

So, on an out and back course with a head/tailwind, one should (if this is right) spend a bit less energy into the headwind, as you have to work disproportionately harder to overcome the frictional air resistance as you move through the air-mass faster than across the ground, and one should work a bit harder on the downwind leg as your power applied yields proportionately more ground speed with the surrounding air mass moving with you (so, less disproportionate friction from the air for a given ground speed, meaning your mph:W ratio is higher for the few W above your average for the out and back). 

Or something like that...

Would that not yeild a faster average speed than holding the same power out-and-back, or am I missing something REALLY basic here?  Could also be that this is such common knowledge that even posting it here is silly (wouldn't be the first - or last - time for me).

Any geeky roadies already have this all figured out?  I can't believe it's a new thought if it is right.  I can certainly believe, though, that it's not!  Laughing

Always dangerous to just think and post - aaahhhhhh, but I'm sure a utopian s/b/r place welcomes such ill advised practice, no?

Matt

2013-06-07 2:08 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Matt,

I think your grounds for investigating that theory makes sense. However, I think when all the math is accounted for, it ends up that even pacing is the way to go.

The reason being is that we are riding a given distance, not a given amount of time. The slower we go into the wind, we have to go even faster with the wind to make up for it. For example, if the goal is to ride at 20 mph on a 20 mile out and back (10 miles each way, with a goal of 1 hour flat) with a headwind down, and a tailwind back. We can't just ride 15 mph down and 25 mph back to get 20 mph. This is because at 15 mph, you're going to take 40 minutes to get down, and 25 minutes to come back at 25 mph. This results in a 1:05 time...slower than 20 mph. If we wanted to go 15 mph down and still hit 1 hour, we would need to ride at 30 mph coming back (20 minutes). For someone with a goal of 20 mph overall...the chances of you sustaining 30 mph even with a strong tailwind is not likely even if you used less power on the first half.

For my race, I'm expecting about a steady 10-20 mph head crosswind going out, and the opposite tailwind coming back. My goal is roughly 25 mph...and if I were to pace it relatively even...I would expect to ride the first half at around 23.8 mph (31:20), and the second half at around 27 mph (27:40) for 59 minutes total.

If I took your proposed strategy, and say rode 20 watts less on the first half, and 20 watts more on the second half. IME, I would expect to ride the out portion into the wind around 1 mph slower. So at 22.8 mph, that's 32:42. To ride 59 minutes, I would need to ride 26:18, or 28.3 mph. So basically, I would need 20 extra watts on the second half to equate to an additional 1.3 mph in speed just to be even...which in my experience...is fairly close to accurate.

So your theory is right. If we reduce 20 watts when going into the wind we only may lose 1 mph. And by adding 20 watts when going with the wind where there is less net wind resistance we gain 1.3 mph. But the overall time is still the same. The theory was though that you would actually go faster....which means a 20 watt increase would result in MORE than a 1.3 mph increase in speed. I can tell you though, at 28ish mph...I even with a strong tailwind there is still plenty of wind resistance, and gaining another 0.2 mph will take some wattage.

But the primary reason you won't see anyone use this strategy is because the physical demands of riding 20 watts over your goal for 30ish minutes. It's not an equal trade. If your one hour power is 250, that doesn't mean you can ride at 230 for 30 minutes and 270 for 30 minutes. The 270 for 30 minutes is going to put you over the red line.
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