When to schedule strength training? (Page 2)

I think strength training is great and think it does help some of us. I am always surprised by the 'bike more or run more' answer.  If my shoulders/tris are fatiguing on the bike I think doing some work to strengthen them is helpful.  Maybe it depends on how you are built to begin with.  I also find that people with a weak core have a harder time holding a good position on the bike and can even have more lower back an saddle pain if their core is not engaged.

My answer to the OP would be you don't have to do a full blown gym workout to see results.  If you are going to go for a run do some push ups or pull ups after your run.  Probably not long run day but a day when you have a shorter/mid length run for you.

Ab/core work - is better for posture for running and biking you could spend 10 minutes a night on ab work though the 6 pack is made in the kitchen not in the gym.

Strength training will be more beneficial when it's a limitation. That's not the case for the vast majority of triathletes.

Sure it could help some, if you can figure out a way to strength train that will be more beneficial than the activity itself. That's not meant to be snarky, but is something that is not really thought of. There is the assumption that when something gets tired that it should be strengthened by some other program, but it may not be necessary. Take the shoulders & triceps in the bike example. I did not see any gain in being able to last longer when I used to lift weights. This did get better simply by riding more. And in riding more I was able to learn various stretches to do while riding, when & how to take a break from the position, and just simply developed better conditioning to hold the position more. And in doing this, I'm able to work on the issue and not take time away from bike training.

In swimming I did not really know how to engage or control my core very well, and did learn how to do that better through yoga & pilates. Once I learned to do that, however, the yoga & pilates did not offer any more benefit and I was better of by simply swimming more. And now I can see that getting more instruction would have been better still than either one of those. There are things that can be done in the pool that can help with that even better. So yes, the other activities can help. The S/B/R more isn't wrong, it's just a bit simplistic at times.

It's the yoga part that's good for flexibility.  I wasn't really implying that plyometrics did.  It's just the DVD's I have for yoga include some plyometric stuff so that's why I said 'yoga and plyometrics.'  Sorry about that.

That part that was incorrect with my post was that I didn't (nor does basic physiology) agree with him. 

I've got to admit that I found the fact that he questioned someone else's strength training knowledge a little ironic considering some of his posts in this thread.

Thank you, Ben. Concise, informative, polite.

A few random notes:

- If your goal is to get faster in endurance sports (and THIS WAS NOT the OP's query), specificity in strength training is desirable. In other words, there are many water/bike/run specific strength training activities you can do that will directly (not by association, not by inference) improve your technique and speed.

- In matters of debate, it's generally accepted that those with a positive claim (doing X leads to Y) need to demonstrate it. It's simply how logic and science work. We assume there isn't a connection until one is established; we do not assume connections and then try to come up with evidence of disproof.

- I appreciate the posters who say things like, "In my experience," "I feel," etc. without turning that into a "you should."

x2.

Regarding when to schedule strength training, I've found it beneficial to periodize the frequency of it along with the training focus at different times of the year.  In other words, during periods of lower volume and intensity of s/b/r training, increase your weekly ST volume.  During periods of intense s/b/r focus with a lot of volume or intensity, ST needs to be drastically reduced, or possibly eliminated depending on an athlete's schedule and ability to recover.

So back to when to should you strength train.  I say where ever it fits into your schedule, but take recovery overall into account.  I strength train regularly and for the most part always have.  This includes through my HIM training.  If you are consistent about it it is not going to impact your sbr anymore then a sbr session would impact another session.  I never felt a strength training session impacted my next days workout.  That being said, I am going to assume your sbr work is more important then your strength workout so I would do that workout first followed by your strength workout.  I usually did them after runs when trailing for tri's, I've even done them after my long run.  I also would stick to full body workouts, probably super setting to maximum time.  That being said if you are not willing to be consistent about it then it will impact your sbr workouts and you'll always be playing catchup.  I wouldn't even bother in that case.

Make sure you look at the development process and what type of training response you're trying to stimulate, as opposed to "strength training: yes/no". In the swimming example, you gave a good one of someone already doing loads of it. They might need another stimulus to help with more development. What would be more helpful is how far along one should progress with the 70k/week before starting to strength train. Or how being able to incorporate that earlier if you somehow can't get that stimulus from more direct swimming techniques. You'll be able to see in the annual totals coming up that this volume would take 3-5 months for quite a few, maybe more. That's where "swim more" is the response so much. You also gave more swim specific exercises to do, so say those instead of "strength training" as many won't know of them. They'll be thinking pull-ups or other things when asking how to keep their arms from getting tired. But again, take a look at the developmental process in question before going right to yes/no.

With the running, I can't remember those exercises ever really helping towards it. Core maybe, but depending on what is done, and there it was more in learning to control things. Like in my response to swimming w/pilates & yoga in an earlier post. If you really have "long trudges", then taking another look at your methods could be in order. I've worked up to near twice as much per week and rarely have that feeling. They actually feel rather refreshing. When they are tough to get through, it's because I just finished a tough bike workout. Are you able to do more biking in place of the other exercises? I've found that to overlap with running better, especially with the engine development for endurance. If you want to keep going with those lifts towards your original question for this thread, then by all means keep at it. 

I schedule my strength training right after my gym swims (not OWS) since well I'm already a the gym.  

The training is complementary.  Forget bench press - that's for meat heads and almost useless to triathlons.  High rep (at least 50 per set) training keeps tendons strong, rejuvenates muscles from running or cycling and improves swim stroke.  Also a great way to avoid or come back from injury.  Remember, each pound of weight you put on  on is 2 seconds per mile off your run, all other factors being equal, so be judicious and focus on legs, core, back.  The other muscles will tone and don't need working out.

odpaul7 - 2012-12-30 7:23 PM Thank you all for the responses. I really like how this thread turned a direction so by all means keep going.

Brigby: I'm still relatively new to running (maybe 8 consistent months, 14 months total in the past 2yrs?) And never focused exclusively on it so building on run volume when graduating HS this spring was tough with swimming. Compounding that with biking and swim maintenance lately I've never really built up a large running base Summer was out, had an accident. So I don't really know that much about any body-weight exercises that'd help i just threw lunges out there because I figured hammy/quad toning would help the push and landing.

Franz: actually benching is good for developing push muscles which does help swimming. I keep the weight low and did 3x15 sets at 95 to 120lbs. However my key race was the 200m free so i dont know how it'd work for your OWS in triathlon. It helps for fly which intimidates new collegiate people when I warm up :D plus push up count for PT tests in ROTC.

You might be right but I think straight arm pull-downs (which work the back/lats) are more helpful to the crawl and mimick it quite well.  I must admit I don't do chest anymore because of my bodybuilding background my chest is way too big for triathlon.  I used bench regularly with 125 dumbells in each hand.  It made a nice pillow for my wife but is just extra muscle to carry around when running.

If you're thinking of anything more than sprint distance I'd up the reps and keep it aerobic, but everyone's different.