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2013-01-11 5:17 PM

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Master
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Subject: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
I feel like I've taken the blue pill in the matrix. I'm going so deep down the rabbit hole, my head is spinning. I am interested in the many threads on Paleo, low carb, and variations. There are many allies with different conclusions, and it all will likely work for different people in different ways.

I am brand new to this world, but I am learning fast. I am absorbing all I can from Lustig, Attia, Taubes, Lundell, Volek, Phinney, Tortorich, Moore, Sisson ...... Wow that is a list!

Not all of those authors/researchers/scientists will advocate a full on ketosis diet, but some do.

I probably fall into the category of someone whose background is extreme enough to consider full on ketosis for at least a year or more. I am going to see how my training fares with weight loss for this season. The fat adaption phase may take a lot longer for me, having been "metabolically deranged" as I think I have been. But it is winter, and I can do this now before the season winds up.

This thread is not for debating ketosis as a method, nor to proclaim it the only viable option. I'm not a sugar-free kool-aid drinker.

But if you are interested like I am, whether or not planning to go ketogenic yourself, this is hopefully going to be a thread where we can swap info, and share experiences.

Whether for weight loss, long distance training, or in my case, hopefully BOTH, let's have our ketogenic support group right here.

If I am missing a thread that already serves this purpose, let me know.



2013-01-11 9:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Great idea for this thread. I am also starting to tread into this world. Sounds like you and me have probably been downloading the same podcasts and buying the same books. Good to have someone going through this too.
2013-01-12 4:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

I'm definitely not an expert on ketosis, but I know a little about diet and nutrition from training clients for a decade.

In my experience, low carb diets and the idea of ketosis that goes along with them only work because generally the subject is grossly overconsuming carbs.  Our society in general does.  So cutting way back on them will of course generate some body fat loss.  However, the pendulum can swing in the opposite direction.  Underconsuming carbs can wreak just as much havoc on the body as eating too much.  All the former Atkins followers who gained all the weight back as soon as they allowed more than a scant amount of carbs to creep back into their diets can attest to that.  That said, finding the perfect balance is an individual thing.  I definitely believe that there's no one size fits all when it comes to the question, how much carbs should I eat every day?

You also mention Paleo diet.  While it seems to have helped many people identify foods to which they are intolerant and never realized it, like dairy or glutten, I don't necessarily agree that cutting out things like grains, beans and olive/olive oil is a positive thing for everyone.  Maybe some people do feel better not eating those things.  I also know people who don't tolerate apples and get a swollen tongue and throat when they try to eat them.  I don't think that means we need an apple free diet to help people maintain a healthy metabolism.

Years ago I went back to the basics.  We know generally what is good for us; foods that are as whole as possible and processed as little as possible; fresh fruits and veggies; lean sources of protein; using sugar sparingly; having fat in the diet but not over doing it or taking it from transfat sources; portion control.  I don't know that we have to follow any specific diet.  There's nothing wrong with taking bits and pieces from each philosophy if it works for you.

I know that's kind of a general answer but I'd love to contribute (and learn) more.  Great thread idea!  What works for one may not work for another but I've been super happy with my metabolic systems in the past several years and my physique as well so I can just share what worked for me.

2013-01-12 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
It's something we've been exploring. My husband has been wanting to go Keto for a little while now, for medical reasons. We're considering hiring a nutritionist who specializes in this area, so he can continue to keep his athletic performance. Makes me a little nervous as he has almost no body fat to use/lose. But, that's what the nutritionist is for. I'm interested to see what she says about how much fat he'll have to take in while riding & running. 

If we go through with this, I'll make sure to pass along info & ideas!  
2013-01-12 10:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

Ketosis is how I lost 100 lbs from December 2011 to May 2012. I had lost 30 lbs in 1 1/2 years on general nutrition guideline previous to that.

I completed my First Triathlon (Sprint) last summer at 48 and i'm now training for my first Olympic next summer. I used to suffer a lot from inflammation and on Ketosis, the inflammation is completely gone. I could not train as I do now with the inflammation I used to have. The GERD problems I used to have are also gone, even if I drink coffee in the evening.

A lot of people tell me you need essential carbs in your diet, and it makes me laugh. I love vegetables, and grow a huge garden in the summer. I probably eat more vegetables than most vegetarians. Vegetables are so low in calories that they count for 10% of my nutrition even when my plate is full. The difference is that they are now covered with butter and salt (Yummm :-).

I have been sugar free for 3 years, so that was an important part to stay in ketosis and one that I had already dealt with in the past.

As everyone else, I am addicted to Carbs, so once in a while I falter. It no longer worries me as falling off a diet used to. I simply enjoy some carbs once in a while (Especially during the holidays) and then return to Ketosis as soon as possible.

According to my Doctor, on a high fat diet, my blood work numbers are those of a perfectly healthy 20 years old male. My blood pressure which had been at 125/75 for 20 years is now 118/65.

My Heart rate keeps around 54/minutes.

If I eat carbs for 2-3 days, I gain 6 to 7 lbs, as I retain a lot of water. My blood pressure increases, Inflammation returns and my heart rate moves to 68/m. I go back to ketosis and spend the second day going to the washroom every 30 minutes. Blood pressure returns to normal as well as HR.

I have four children so a cold appears in my house every 3 weeks. Since giving up sugar 3 years ago, I have not caught a cold or the Flu. My wife has not been so lucky, it seems harder for women to give up sugar, especially chocolate :-

One thing to be careful for a new person trying ketosis, is make sure you increase your salt intake. The first week I almost passed out a few times when getting up. When I read about the fact that you are flushing out salt in ketosis, I increased the amount in my food and have had no problems since. Funny thing, sodium was the only thing which is a bit too low in my last blood work.

The best info for Ketosis I discovered is from Peter Attia at eatingacademy.com.

He is one driven individual, and the research he does is very useful in a sport like triathlon.



Edited by outlandluc 2013-01-12 10:37 AM
2013-01-12 10:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

I probably fall into the category of someone whose background is extreme enough to consider full on ketosis for at least a year or more. I am going to see how my training fares with weight loss for this season. The fat adaption phase may take a lot longer for me, having been "metabolically deranged" as I think I have been. But it is winter, and I can do this now before the season winds up.

I had been obese (130 lbs) for 15 years. The adaptation was rough for the first 3 days, full withdrawal symptoms. It took 3 weeks before I realized I no longer felt hunger. I would have to remind myself to eat, a new and very pleasant feeling :-)

Although I started feeling hunger again as I approached my ideal weight. 

In full ketosis, you will loose weight a lot faster then you ever expected, and feel a level of energy that you sometimes don't know what to do with. Be careful of over training, hurt my knee wanting to use some of that energy.

I now plan on loosing another 20 lbs, and reach a weight I have not seen since I was 14 years old. I know I will loose muscles, but I'm OK with this. You build a lot of huge muscles as an obese person, muscles that are useless in triathlon. It would have been impossible before, but I know it is possible in Ketosis.

Good luck in your attempt and give it at least a month to see how you feel. If you succeed, have a blood work done in 6 months and compare with your previous numbers. It will be useful to convince people around you that you're not attempting suicide by fat :-)



2013-01-12 6:13 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Noelle, I really wanted to keep debate of ketosis' vailidty out of here, but since you went there, as they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. All the conventional wisdom from any registered dietician will sing the praises of whole grains. There is a ton of science that refutes this, and strongly. Yet the politics of the food pyramid(now "my plate") keep the subsidized commodity crops of the big five grains, at the core of our food system.

Granted, I only found my way to this research on what is currently considered an extreme diet, because my life has been an extreme mess. But if there is a place for ketosis and high fat, very very low carbs, I am the guy who it fits. I am following the debate among low carbers, paleos and just plain old no sugar no grain philosophies. For me, the addiction was on the brink of ruining my life. I was over 360 pounds, depressed and a total mess. I have since entered the 12 step process, but my further analysis of my food plan found it wanting. The myth of the heart healthy whole grain kept me dosing every day on my problem substance. Eventually that was unsustainable.

I don't disagree that we all have different sensitivities. But your apple example is a non sequitor against the evidence that the low fat, grain based diet has been a major factor in the explosion of heart disease.

And yes, I agree that any reduction leads to weight loss, but I am finally beyond simple thermodynamics as an explanation for how calories work in the body. The endocrine system is a heck of a lot more complicated. I screwed with mine for four decades. I may not stay in ketosis forever, but having been on the brink, it may be my only option for repair.

Luc, thanks for the tip. I have no problem getting enough salt. None at all.

Comet, you may want to look at Be Greenfield's site, the low carbohydrate triathlete. Ben isn't necessarily about full ketosis, but he recommends a carb cycling approach, with higher carbs on your long day, while low cab the rest of the week.

What appeals to me about ketosis for now, is that once a person becomes fat adapated, it is supposed to be feasible to go long distance like this, without relying on glycogen as primary, thus not slamming constant sugar for hours.

2013-01-12 6:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Luc you read my mind. And you are my example of where I hope to follow in a couple years. I am glad I started this thread, so keosis fans can come out of the closet.

I have always been heavy, and weak. I have no problem with any muscle mass I might have, even if it is, as you say, useless for triathlon.

I am surprised how little withdrawl I have one through. The first two weeks were easier than anything, and boom! I was in ketosis. I am waiting for the other shoe to drop over the next couple weeks. I did a small experiment last night. I do the thing where if it's pizza time, I eat the top, toss the crust. Well, i decided to see what happened with 2 bites of crust. Not only did it make me feel high, and kind of weird all night, I did a urine test an hour later, and my purple was almost gone, meaning I was only slightly ketogenic. In the morning, I felt like I had a post migraine hangover, but I was showing deeper purple again. So I can get back into it easily, but wow, two bites. I used to eat a heck of a lot more flour at once than that.

My main frustration right now is that while ketogenic, the energy is not there yet showing that I am fat adapted in burning energy. I tweeted vinnie about it, and he said I would probably, in his words, drag azz for another week or two, but once I'm all in, I will notice.

2013-01-12 8:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Alright Claaw, I get what you are saying as when the Atkins diet came out in the 70's I was right on it. Lost a ton of weight but then developed seizures from not enough carbs as your brain function is dependant on them. Not able at that point to compete in any sport, not to mention endurance sports. I actually blame that period in my "diet life" to my now difficulty to eliminate most of the carbs now.
When I get under a certain point, I really struggle with blackouts etc.
I continue to look for my "magic bullet" and if is inappropriate to ask about specifics of this sysytem, let me know. I am very curious with all methods of nutrition. I have over 40 years of "dieting" covering all areas-vegan, Atkins, WW, Jenny Craig, bulemia, anorexia blah, blah, blah. Toyed with getting rid of dairy and wheat now and just sticking with whole foods etc.
I have a HIM in June so I don't have a ton of time to BS with figuring things out. Glad to have all the info I can get!
2013-01-12 9:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

TheClaaaw - 2013-01-12 7:22 PM My main frustration right now is that while ketogenic, the energy is not there yet showing that I am fat adapted in burning energy. I tweeted vinnie about it, and he said I would probably, in his words, drag azz for another week or two, but once I'm all in, I will notice.

It took me about 3-4 weeks. I remember all of a sudden looking for work to do around the house or activities with the kids between training. I would run in the morning, bring the kids sliding (or skating) during the day and swim at night. The wife barely had to touch a cleaning agent anymore, as I would clean between those activities. I simply could not sit in front of the tv anymore.

I did not even realize it was happening until my wife asked me who the heck I was and what I had done with her husband :-)

It's soon after that I hurt my knee and realize my 48 years old (Sedentary and obese for too long) body could not keep up with the demand and I had to learn to pace it.

As you have a lots of weight to loose, you might not fully notice the increase in energy, it might be more gradual. The constant weight loss will keep you motivated.

Be careful with testing yourself out of Ketosis, gave myself some bad migraine once by jumping back and forth during last fall.

Since you are opening up to this life change here and on your blog, expect to be treated as if you lost your mind. My wife only finally stopped thinking I was doing irreparable damage when she read the results of my latest blood work.

There's more of us out there than it seems, we just tend to be shy coming out because of most people's reaction.

Hopefully Taubes and Attia will succeed with NUSI and finally shed some light on Nutrition.

2013-01-12 11:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Oh yeah, I am fully expecting to be labeled a fad following magic bullet seeker. But people in my life know I've been a food addict, specifically sugars. So when I went looking for a way to still do endurance but not rely on high carbs, I thought I would find nothing. Vnnie's podcast has been a pied piper of sorts, who got my attention with the idea of 500 mile bike rides on olive oil and cream cheese with "trickled" sugar, i am now all over about 5 different low carb podcasts, reading books, etc etc.....

My wife isn't too worried, she is partially skeptical, but open minded and listening. I promised her, without her asking, that I would go to get bloodwork at the end of three months and see if there are any problems. I have bloodwork from early 2011 and 2012 to compare it to.

Cayenne, I don't mean to moderate the thread so strictly as to come off like "no questions!!" I just hope to have a "safe place" for those of us trying out or fully embracing ketosis to talk out some stuff without turning into much defense of "you guys are nuts." I wold be happy to outline the process that has led me in this direction. It is so new to me though, I can"t speak authoritatively on anything but my own water weight loss right now. That's why I would simply provide a bibliography of the real experts.

But with baldridges and outlandluc coming in, I am glad to hear from some others who are much further along.



2013-01-13 6:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
I also work with a guy who started at over 400 lbs. He has lost 100 lbs in Ketosis and hopes to loose 100 more. It took him a year. He had some tough withdrawal symptoms at first but has had no side effects coming out of it when he falls of the wagon. Which he does once or twice a month, as he can't completely give up his sweat tooth.
2013-01-14 1:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Anyone ever use a blood ketosis meter? Listening t Jimmy Moore talk about his experience, he went beyond the urine testing keto strips, and went for a blood reader. It is significantly more expensive. Yu can ge a free meter, but strips are the thing. Apparently he was showing high ketones that show up in the urine, but the free floating ones that you're looking for in the blood that indicate ou are truly burning fat as a primary fuel, was lacking. Thus the blood testing. Not sure I am needing that. Even though I was once nealy as big as Jimmy was once, I think I may be less metabolically damaged than I worried about, based on how easily I went into ketosis without terrible cravings or side effects. All I have now is some sluggishness on runs, especially hills.
2013-01-14 2:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
I started this diet today. Ive tried Atkins in the past, while working out and running and about two or three weaks into it my energy level was so low i had to stop. i couldnt even make it a mile and a half without feeling like absolute crap. now I see if I stuck with it I may have made it another week and felt better. I also listen to Vinny Tortorich, it will be interesting to see how it goes. im going to stick with it as long as possible. I hope my energy level comes back quick though. ive signed up for a half ironman in the first week of April.... The best thing so far was a protein shake for lunch I made with heavy cream and some low carb protein powder and ice. It was actually pretty good..
2013-01-14 2:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
I started this diet today. Ive tried Atkins in the past, while working out and running and about two or three weaks into it my energy level was so low i had to stop. i couldnt even make it a mile and a half without feeling like absolute crap. now I see if I stuck with it I may have made it another week and felt better. I also listen to Vinny Tortorich, it will be interesting to see how it goes. im going to stick with it as long as possible. I hope my energy level comes back quick though. ive signed up for a half ironman in the first week of April.... The best thing so far was a protein shake for lunch I made with heavy cream and some low carb protein powder and ice. It was actually pretty good..
2013-01-14 2:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Stick with it. I think my energy came back today. I did a two mile run at my pre-ketosis pace. when I tried to run over the oast three weeks, it was not great. I have a flat 5k this sunday afternoon. Psyched to see how it goes.

Going against the whole "all things in moderation" mantra, I have embraced the idea that a ketosis method isn't halfway. If the whole idea is to switch to fat burning as primary, then relying on glucose won't work. Low glucose just means we'll be slow, so the changeover takes time, but once you do it, allegedly it is done so long as you stay in it most of the time.

I bought a book that Vinnie recommended some time ago, and Jimmy Moore swears by it right now. I think I may finally read it through tonight. The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Volek and Phinney. This is their followup to art and science of low carb living.



2013-01-14 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
very interesting, let me know how it goes and any easy and good food recipes you come up with...
2013-01-14 2:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
very interesting, let me know how it goes and any easy and good food recipes you come up with...
2013-01-14 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
MANDOWN - 2013-01-14 3:40 PMvery interesting, let me know how it goes and any easy and good food recipes you come up with...

Ok this ine isnt carb free, but very low per serving, depending on your other intake for the day and how tight your carbs are, this could be good. I have it in the crock pot right now. Some prep time, but then just sitting in crock pot all day. http://peaceloveandlowcarb.blogspot.com/2012/11/lentil-and-italian-...

2013-01-14 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

Going against the whole "all things in moderation" mantra, I have embraced the idea that a ketosis method isn't halfway. If the whole idea is to switch to fat burning as primary, then relying on glucose won't work. Low glucose just means we'll be slow, so the changeover takes time, but once you do it, allegedly it is done so long as you stay in it most of the time.

You most likely will loose the kick. I used to have an incredible kick no matter how long I ran, I can accelerate a bit at the end, but not the same. I have more energy and run faster during, so I don't really miss the kick. Attia talks about this in one of his blog.

My last blood work, while in ketosis showed that my Glucose level was still in the normal range. Never looked into the explanation for this, but one less thing to worry about.

Paleo cook books have a lot of recipes that work for Ketosis.

 



Edited by outlandluc 2013-01-14 3:35 PM
2013-01-15 8:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

Thanks for starting this thread Andy.  I have gone the ketosis route several times and it without a doubt works.  The biggest issues I have is that I hate eggs and that eliminates one big staple of the eating plan.  I also get so bored with food that I tend not to eat enough.  Plus the fact that after a few days of strict eating I am rarely hungry.

I will tend to do strict for 2 weeks just to detox myself.  Then, I allow a little more leeway just to get the calories I need.  I am on day 2 of strict and already have the headache and crankiness that always comes at the start.  Another day or 2 of foginess and I should break through.

 



2013-01-15 8:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread

Interesting thread.  Off of sugar/honey and added sweeteners from Jan. 1 and doing fine.  A client gave a box of Harry & David truffles and I have not touched them.  Typically I stay away from bread/grains, but have been sick for a week and have been craving carbs.  I've caved and had a few rolls over the last week. Today I made chicken soup, ate some of the chicken skin and noticed the carb craving was killed, yay!  

I'm weak from being sick, and know my training volume will be low once i feel healthy again.  This will be interesting for me to try.  Last Monday I ran about 5.5 miles and a week later a slow 45 minute walk leaves me exhausted....amazing what a cold can do to your body.  

2013-01-17 2:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
TheClaaaw - 2013-01-12 6:13 PM

What appeals to me about ketosis for now, is that once a person becomes fat adapated, it is supposed to be feasible to go long distance like this, without relying on glycogen as primary, thus not slamming constant sugar for hours.


Sooo...I can't speak specifically to ketosis but I do want to address the above. This thread is fascinating me and I've done some research but I'm currently experimenting with Paleo and plan to stick with that for a bit. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this thread

As I said, I've never done full ketosis but a few years back I dropped my carbs to <40% of my diet. I increased my fat to 30-35%. I lost a ton of body fat and got much faster. The one thing I really noticed was with the increase in fat in my diet I could get up in the morning and do an 15-18 mile run with no fuel, just water. Once I hit 18 I was getting hungry and had to eat some nuts to go further, but my body obviously switched from using glycogen to fat burning. I ran my fastest ever half marathon on no fuel and my fastest half iron on next to none (it was a few years ago but I feel like I ate a protein bar on the bike?). I used to bonk every run, I couldn't eat enough to prevent bonking without upsetting my stomach so this switch was a welcome reprieve!!! The book Slow Burn talks much about converting your body from carb-burning to fat-burning via diet.
2013-01-17 6:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
erin116 - 2013-01-17 3:26 PM
TheClaaaw - 2013-01-12 6:13 PMWhat appeals to me about ketosis for now, is that once a person becomes fat adapated, it is supposed to be feasible to go long distance like this, without relying on glycogen as primary, thus not slamming constant sugar for hours.
Sooo...I can't speak specifically to ketosis but I do want to address the above. This thread is fascinating me and I've done some research but I'm currently experimenting with Paleo and plan to stick with that for a bit. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this thread As I said, I've never done full ketosis but a few years back I dropped my carbs to <40% of my diet. I increased my fat to 30-35%. I lost a ton of body fat and got much faster. The one thing I really noticed was with the increase in fat in my diet I could get up in the morning and do an 15-18 mile run with no fuel, just water. Once I hit 18 I was getting hungry and had to eat some nuts to go further, but my body obviously switched from using glycogen to fat burning. I ran my fastest ever half marathon on no fuel and my fastest half iron on next to none (it was a few years ago but I feel like I ate a protein bar on the bike?). I used to bonk every run, I couldn't eat enough to prevent bonking without upsetting my stomach so this switch was a welcome reprieve!!! The book Slow Burn talks much about converting your body from carb-burning to fat-burning via diet.

Thanks for that. So glad to hear from others doing it. The book everyone comes back to right now is "The Ar and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" by Phinney and Volek. Both have been involved in the research a long time. The first chapter is a good intro into how this goes against all the current conventional wisdom and advice, but goes on to demonstrate the alternative. They make a case that the alternative is not only possible, but preferable.

We live in exciting times.

2013-01-17 6:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Dedicated Ketosis Thread
Is Slow Burn this book? http://www.amazon.com/Slow-Burn-Faster-Exercising-ebook/dp/B005O078... focus there seems to be n he whoe zone 2 fat burning thing.

I just got thrugh a fantastic podcast with Ben Greenfield talking to the guy in the Smarter Science of Slim (so many podcasts, and they all crossover all the time). Ben talks about how yu may want to consider low carb or ketosis as a trade off for top performance, as you dont tap into that fast twitch sprint system hat you would need even as an endurance athlete if you are on the elite end. But then Ben also recounts ho his first rae done ketogenically was Leadman. HE WON.

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