General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Unstable with new wheelset Rss Feed  
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2013-01-22 4:37 PM

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Subject: Unstable with new wheelset
I recently purchased an 85mm carbon tubular wheelset. Did my first ride the other day and was so surprised with the amount of instability I felt on the bike. Winds were probably 10-15 mph. I found I was more stable in the drops than my clip on aerobars. This was my first ride with deep dish wheels. Is this typical? Do I need to keep riding to get used to the amount of instability? Will it improve?I've considered getting a 50mm wheel for the front and keeping my 85mm rear. Those that have this setup, would that help?Any other recommendations?Thanks


2013-01-22 4:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

csschafer - 2013-01-22 4:37 PM I recently purchased an 85mm carbon tubular wheelset. Did my first ride the other day and was so surprised with the amount of instability I felt on the bike. Winds were probably 10-15 mph. I found I was more stable in the drops than my clip on aerobars. This was my first ride with deep dish wheels. Is this typical? Do I need to keep riding to get used to the amount of instability? Will it improve?I've considered getting a 50mm wheel for the front and keeping my 85mm rear. Those that have this setup, would that help?Any other recommendations?Thanks

 

Yikes.  What brand?   I just purchased Zipp 808 full carbon clinchers and I've not yet tried them out.

2013-01-22 4:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

I haven't ridden 85 front and back, but have run 58 front and a disc rear.  And have used them in winds in excess of 25 mph.  Also used 58 front and back in winds over 40 mph.  It's just something you get used to.  Probably not ideal for training if you're trying to stay within a 2-3 foot shoulder of the road, but when racing, if you've got more of the road to work with, you just let the wind push you and adjust. 



Edited by tri808 2013-01-22 4:58 PM
2013-01-22 5:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
1. Deep section, not deep dish. Dish refers to the rear wheel being off center from the hub, to allow space for the cassette.

2. How much do you weigh?? If you are very light, you may need a shallower section up front.

3. You probably need to get used to them.
2013-01-22 6:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
Even when I got some semi-deep 30mm I thought I felt a handling difference in heavier winds. It might be totally a placebo though. I got used to it after the second ride, so with 85mm I feel like you'd notice it much more.
2013-01-22 6:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

datlas - 2013-01-22 6:38 PM 1. Deep section, not deep dish. Dish refers to the rear wheel being off center from the hub, to allow space for the cassette.

2. How much do you weigh?? If you are very light, you may need a shallower section up front.

3. You probably need to get used to them.

Weight has very little to nothing to do with the handling of your bike and deep section wheels.  This is the largest misconception out there.  The deeper the front the more comfortable a rider needs to be on their bike. 

Control of a deep front comes from your elbows, not your hands on the aerobars.

A large part of the issue is that you have a road bike with clip-on aerobars.  This bike is not 'truly' designed to have these wheels on AND you out front in aerobars.  The center of gravity is different.

Big picture, you will get use to it.  Just try to relax and let the bike move with you.  The more you fight it, the harder it will be to ride.



2013-01-22 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
I will take your word for it that weight of rider is not important. I had heard that it was, but have no evidence other than hearsay.
2013-01-22 7:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
datlas - 2013-01-22 8:07 PM I will take your word for it that weight of rider is not important. I had heard that it was, but have no evidence other than hearsay.


For the record, I wasn't trying to jump on you.  Just wanted to point out it's a common misconception.

The geek in me says to do a force analysis.  The difference between a 110# person and a 200# person at the elbows will be very small.  This is where the control happens.  It's not in the hands where most think it is and where a 'stronger' athlete would have an advantage.
2013-01-22 7:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
Thanks all for the feedback. They are American Classic series 3 wheels. I will take them out again this weekend, but in theory would I have greater control with a smaller section fron wheel? For the record I am 6'6 190#.
2013-01-22 7:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

csschafer - 2013-01-22 8:37 PM Thanks all for the feedback. They are American Classic series 3 wheels. I will take them out again this weekend, but in theory would I have greater control with a smaller section fron wheel? For the record I am 6'6 190#.

The short answer is yes.  You basically went from a Kia to a Ferrari.  You just need to get use to the Ferrari or trade in for a Mercedes.

2013-01-22 8:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

Whoa. At 6'6", 190, you're basically my size...I'm 6'2", 190. And I'm gonna go all contrarian on ya'...

It isn't the instability of the wheelset and wind, it's your comfort level with being moved around. My uneducated guess is that you're a rider that's not spent a lot of time in the wind, hope I'm not grasping at straws, but assume not, as most riders that have spent time in wind - no matter what wheelset - have been moved around. 

Now...check this out. These are pro riders, admittedly in really windy conditions, but they're being moved around. And guess what?  They get it done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8qgjyqibwY 

My personal opinion: Know how to handle your bike. With the right skill, and confidence, 35 vs 55 vs 80 won't make much difference.  Ride in wind, ride in rain, know your bike. Then you won't look at wind as a minus, but a plus. 

FWIW, I ride a 404 front and a Renn disc. It took prolly a solid 10 rides in wind to embrace it, so I felt cool and awesome. Now I love it. Everyone slows down in big wind, I go faster.



2013-01-22 8:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
Marvarnett - 2013-01-22 4:42 PM

 large part of the issue is that you have a road bike with clip-on aerobars.  This bike is not 'truly' designed to have these wheels on AND you out front in aerobars.  The center of gravity is different.

This^. And with your size, and the geometry of a road bike with clip ons, no wonder you feel a little unstable.

2013-01-22 8:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

You'll get used to them. One thing is to not fight them too much. You'll find there is a 'countersteer' effect when you let them move a bit. The wind blows the front wheel to the left, which tilts the bike to the right, which then brings the wheel back under you. All you have to do is have a firm grip on the bars and keep your balance. When you get use to this, you'll be a lot more comfortable riding them.

BTW, I'm 5' 7", 140 and ride 90 deep front and rear in the TT bike, 50 deep on the road bike.

2013-01-23 7:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
Great stuff guys, thanks. True, I'm not a very "experienced" rider as I've been cycling for about 2 years and doing triathlon for about 1 year. I guess I need to spend more time in the saddle under windy conditions. Do you think a professional bike fit would help as I use a road bike with clip-ons?
2013-01-23 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

csschafer - 2013-01-23 8:52 AM Great stuff guys, thanks. True, I'm not a very "experienced" rider as I've been cycling for about 2 years and doing triathlon for about 1 year. I guess I need to spend more time in the saddle under windy conditions. Do you think a professional bike fit would help as I use a road bike with clip-ons?

Yes, Yes, Yes.  Even if you were fit on your road bike, once you put aerobars on there, things change.  Best money you can spend.

2013-01-23 8:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
csschafer - 2013-01-22 9:37 PM

Thanks all for the feedback. They are American Classic series 3 wheels. I will take them out again this weekend, but in theory would I have greater control with a smaller section fron wheel?


That or a deeper rear wheel - when a wheelset is matched, the effect of the wind acts further forward on the bike (this is just due to the cross sectional area that is exposed to the wind) and the closer this is to the front wheel, the more the wind will push the bike around. With a disc, the wind will act further back on the bike and this will act to stabilize the bike.

Shane


2013-01-23 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset
gsmacleod - 2013-01-23 9:57 AM

That or a deeper rear wheel - when a wheelset is matched, the effect of the wind acts further forward on the bike (this is just due to the cross sectional area that is exposed to the wind) and the closer this is to the front wheel, the more the wind will push the bike around. With a disc, the wind will act further back on the bike and this will act to stabilize the bike.

Shane


Can only second what Shane said. Get a disc for the rear and you will get more stable. Make sure you have a good bike fit to start with, otherwise you will never find good balance on the bike. When you added the clip on aero bars, did you change your seat position? If yes, then that's your problem, too much weight forward on a bike that is designed with a rearward weight distribution as balanced.

My wife is riding Zipp 808's with zero problem in any condition (she's a lightweight, further the argument that weight has nothing to do with it), but she's also very well balanced on the bike with a good bike fit and years of riding (a very good bike handler).
2013-01-23 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Unstable with new wheelset

audiojan - 2013-01-23 10:06 AM
gsmacleod - 2013-01-23 9:57 AM That or a deeper rear wheel - when a wheelset is matched, the effect of the wind acts further forward on the bike (this is just due to the cross sectional area that is exposed to the wind) and the closer this is to the front wheel, the more the wind will push the bike around. With a disc, the wind will act further back on the bike and this will act to stabilize the bike. Shane
Can only second what Shane said. Get a disc for the rear and you will get more stable. Make sure you have a good bike fit to start with, otherwise you will never find good balance on the bike. When you added the clip on aero bars, did you change your seat position? If yes, then that's your problem, too much weight forward on a bike that is designed with a rearward weight distribution as balanced. My wife is riding Zipp 808's with zero problem in any condition (she's a lightweight, further the argument that weight has nothing to do with it), but she's also very well balanced on the bike with a good bike fit and years of riding (a very good bike handler).

Not what you asked, but wanted to give my unsolicited opinion on this.

Don't buy a disc.  If you have the $$ for a disc, get a Tri Bike and ditch the road bike with clip-ons. 

But the statement about the disc making the bike more stable is a true statement.

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