General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!) Rss Feed  
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2013-01-30 9:51 PM


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Subject: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)

Hey all,

I'm still a very average swimmer but I am trying to make an honest effort to improve.  I've read a lot of threads here and on slowtwitch about swim workouts, but being totally new to the sport I'm still not sure I'm doing the best thing at the moment.  I'm primarily concerned about pacing on my intervals/the amount of rest to take. 

The goal is to get to the point where I can do the big 4K-5K yard workouts, but I don't think I'm there yet (unless I slow down a lot? maybe you can tell me if thats a good idea or not).

Everything is short course yards.  I do all open turns.  My all out 100y swim is ~1:25.

Warm up

300y pull (~1:50/100y)

300y swim (~1:45/100y)

Weird/short set in between warm up and main:

8 x 50 swim (45-47s, 15s rest in between)

200 swim easy (~1:50/100y)

Main A:

8 x 100 swim (1:30-1:35, rest until I get to 2min)

Main B:

4 x 200 pull (~1:43/100y, rest 35s)

Cool Down:

200 swim

Total 3000y

This all takes me just over an hour to do (today it took 1h 5min, average speed came out to 1:40/100y).  Obviously I rest some between each piece.  I worry that I am resting too long.  I think part of the problem is that I'm a kicktastic so my heart rate goes up pretty fast when I swim so it takes longer to catch my breathe a little.  I'm slower in the pull sets because I'm sure my pull sucks and my upper body is just generally weak (my arms are dying at the end of each 200).

Anyway, with that in mind, I would appreciate suggestions on improvements to this type workout.  I've done this workout 5x in the last week, which is about the frequency I think I'll keep (maybe I can do 6x).

Thanks in advance to the real swimmers on here



2013-01-30 9:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
What race distance are you training for? 
2013-01-30 10:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
Definitely short course.  I'm planning on 2-3 sprints and maybe 1 Olympic this year.
2013-01-30 10:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
Not terrible but don't do any longer intervals unless its a once every 4 month 1000/1500/1650 time trial.More short intervals will help. 60 x 25 @ 40 flat out on each 25.
2013-01-30 10:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)

oh wow, 25y repeats.  that is something I have never considered.  I'm not even sure what that would feel like.

Maybe I'll try that next time.  60 of them sounds tough though... 

2013-01-30 11:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)

I have no idea where you're coming from/how long you've been swimming. But I would say that you're doing fine. 

3000 yards 5x a week is a really good place to be. And that distance in about an hour seems to be about right. 

I don't know where you got the workout from, but it itself is fine. I would recommend that you vary your workouts. Doing the same thing every day doesn't help the body adapt.

Since you're a self identified kicktastic, work on the things swimsmooth.com has and you should see a decent improvement. 

Biggest thing, vary your workouts. You need to subject your body to different stresses to get it to adapt and improve. I personally love the book Swim Workouts For Triathletes, but if you have access to any masters website and use their workouts you should be fine.

 

Edit: I love the book because it realizes that a lot of triathletes(like me) can't do any stroke other that freestyle efficiency, and it has a great variety of workouts for everything from building endurance to 3000+ yards of pull sets, and even some open water suggestions. The only thing I think it lacks is an emphasis on drill sets. Which imho you should do at least 300 yards of each workout. 



Edited by drdking 2013-01-30 11:23 PM


2013-01-31 12:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
Balls to the wall and bring a bucket.
2013-01-31 12:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
bigmike3541 - 2013-01-30 8:51 PM

Hey all,

I'm still a very average swimmer but I am trying to make an honest effort to improve.  I've read a lot of threads here and on slowtwitch about swim workouts, but being totally new to the sport I'm still not sure I'm doing the best thing at the moment.  I'm primarily concerned about pacing on my intervals/the amount of rest to take. 

The goal is to get to the point where I can do the big 4K-5K yard workouts, but I don't think I'm there yet (unless I slow down a lot? maybe you can tell me if thats a good idea or not).

Everything is short course yards.  I do all open turns.  My all out 100y swim is ~1:25.

Warm up

300y pull (~1:50/100y)

300y swim (~1:45/100y)

Weird/short set in between warm up and main:

8 x 50 swim (45-47s, 15s rest in between)

200 swim easy (~1:50/100y)

Main A:

8 x 100 swim (1:30-1:35, rest until I get to 2min)

Main B:

4 x 200 pull (~1:43/100y, rest 35s)

Cool Down:

200 swim

Total 3000y

This all takes me just over an hour to do (today it took 1h 5min, average speed came out to 1:40/100y).  Obviously I rest some between each piece.  I worry that I am resting too long.  I think part of the problem is that I'm a kicktastic so my heart rate goes up pretty fast when I swim so it takes longer to catch my breathe a little.  I'm slower in the pull sets because I'm sure my pull sucks and my upper body is just generally weak (my arms are dying at the end of each 200).

Anyway, with that in mind, I would appreciate suggestions on improvements to this type workout.  I've done this workout 5x in the last week, which is about the frequency I think I'll keep (maybe I can do 6x).

Thanks in advance to the real swimmers on here



I have mixed feelings about this post. Your times seem fine for your self-described swim history.

What do you need to improve specifically?
Why do you want to do "the big 4k-5k" workouts?
What will be better about that than about doing a 3k workout?
When you graduate to the 4k-5k workout, will you be doing anything better/differetn besides more yards than your current 3k workout?
What are your low hanging fruits for technique improvement?
Where is your biggest gain in your fitness?
What kind of tests/feedback are you doing or getting to evaluate all that stuff?

Warmups: Don't time them...it doesn't matter how fast they are. what matters is that you are winding down your busy mind and tuning up your senses and feel for the water, which is a totally different mindset than what we use in everyday business/work/activities. I call it a tune up rather than a warmup. A Tune IN is an even better mindset to be in.

As for the "weird little set" between the warmup & the main set. That set is priceless...short 50s once you are warmed up let you get into your flow, stretch out your stroke, tune up your tempo and really feel that youre getting into a great set of swimming. It's not just there to take up space.

The main set: Does your stroke count differ from your first 100 to your final 100? How did you decide on the pace/ rest intervals? How do you feel when you swim the 100s? How does your stroke feel?

Same questions for the 200s

Cooldown: What reflections about your swim go through your mind as you cooldown or are you just moving because it's on the workout sheet?

I'm not trying to be harsh but what I see is a rote recital of a set of instructions focused on external metrics (speed & distance) without a sense of how it integrates into the whole of improving your swim.

The popular answer here on BT is swim more, swim harder, swim longer sets, but there needs to be some soul to see real improvements.

Maybe just spend a day slowing down and not timing yourself...just feel your swim.
2013-01-31 7:24 AM
in reply to: #4602208


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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
I think I can answer most of these questions. I think everything may be coming off as more robot like than I meant for it too

1. I know the pace for the warmup is irrelevant. I just included it because my watch is timing everything anyway.

2. I really really like the 8x50 set, which is why I do it. In my learn to swim class (I started in Sept last year) toward the end we did this after our warmup and I thought it helped get me going enough that I've done it almost every time since.

3. I can check the change in stroke rate between the first and last intervals when I get to a computer, garmin connect is being funny. I suspect they are very similar though.

4. The pacing/rest for the intervals is something I decided entirely on my own (and as such is the part I'm most suspicious of, as I mentioned in the first post). 1:30-1:35 feels like a solid but repeatable effort range and 25-30s rest is enough for me to catch my breath but not completely. So I would say this type of interval feels very natural for me. I have tried what I think is more common (at least from what I've read): the 10-15s rest between intervals. I haven't been able to find a pace that I'm happy with for that though, I always felt like I was going to fast or too slow.

6. As for things to improve, there's definitely fitness which I'm trying to address. There's also significant form stuff. I basically can't swim with paddles--they go all over the place and get loose mid length. I also can't swim with a pull bouy/ankle band. I can float fine in place and as soon as I go to take my first pull I sink. I also find that when I swim with a pull buoy, I can feel my body going side to side with each stroke, particularly when I'm tired. Maybe better fitness will help me keep everything in a line better?
2013-01-31 7:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)

Ok here's what I would do:

Like said above, do not time your warmup. There is no need. 

Shorten the rest. You can even start by shortening your 100y interval to 1:55 and keep going from there. I wouldn't even rest 15s for the 50s - either put it on the interval or rest like 5s. I am not big on rest. After I do a hard set - I do a 100-200 recovery. I don't really hang out at the wall for more than maybe 15s ever.

Really evaluate whether form or power is your problem.

If it is power, mix it up a bit. Maybe work with some paddles, other strokes. Try to mix up your workouts a bit more.

2013-01-31 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
bigmike3541 - 2013-01-30 9:51 PM

...  I think part of the problem is that I'm a kicktastic so my heart rate goes up pretty fast when I swim so it takes longer to catch my breathe a little.  I'm slower in the pull sets because I'm sure my pull sucks and my upper body is just generally weak (my arms are dying at the end of each 200)...

If you are exhausting your arms from pull sets, I would do two things, first mix in some dry land (medicine ball) and weights (Presses, pull downs, kettle bell work, etc)  The second would be drill, drill, drill, you have pull sets already turn some into drills, maybe focus on specific mechanics (deck-up’s , high elbows, catch-ups).  Play golf on your lengths focusing on stroke, decrease a pull each length.

I have played with my mechanics, where I slow down my kick and sped up my pull, it was a little awkward at first, but I have good legs when I exit.

If you want to mix it up, here is a "speed" set I use all the time

4 x 50 Build rest 15,10,5
2 x 50 Sprint rest 20
1 x 50 EZ
3 x 50 Sprint rest 20
1 x 50 EZ
4 x 50 Sprint rest 20

750


Good luck



2013-01-31 10:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
I switched the 4x200 part of my main set for 32x25s @40 per the suggestion above. That was a really different feeling, but I enjoyed it! I can tell though my feelings about it would have changed significantly if I continued on to do the full 60 repetitions.. Hah. The gym closing at 10 (4 minutes ago my time) may have saved me there!
2013-01-31 11:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
bigmike3541 - 2013-01-31 6:24 AM

I think I can answer most of these questions. I think everything may be coming off as more robot like than I meant for it too


3. I can check the change in stroke rate between the first and last intervals when I get to a computer, garmin connect is being funny. I suspect they are very similar though.



4. The pacing/rest for the intervals is something I decided entirely on my own (and as such is the part I'm most suspicious of, as I mentioned in the first post). 1:30-1:35 feels like a solid but repeatable effort range and 25-30s rest is enough for me to catch my breath but not completely. So I would say this type of interval feels very natural for me. I have tried what I think is more common (at least from what I've read): the 10-15s rest between intervals. I haven't been able to find a pace that I'm happy with for that though, I always felt like I was going to fast or too slow.



6. As for things to improve, there's definitely fitness which I'm trying to address. There's also significant form stuff. I basically can't swim with paddles--they go all over the place and get loose mid length. I also can't swim with a pull bouy/ankle band. I can float fine in place and as soon as I go to take my first pull I sink. I also find that when I swim with a pull buoy, I can feel my body going side to side with each stroke, particularly when I'm tired. Maybe better fitness will help me keep everything in a line better?


Point 3: Find this out for certain. You want to look at just the number of strokes...the garmin will count two arm strokes as one cycle and report cycles. So if you have an odd number of strokes, it won't show it and the garmin stroke cycle will be accurate only +/- .5 stroke cycles. (1 stroke is a big difference).

Point 4: It feels natural to you because it probabaly plays to your strength. 90 seconds of effort followed by 30 seconds of rest is a strength oriented swim. For good triathlon swimming you need to really leanr how to tap into a more effortless, more efficient aerobic pace. Your other comments give me a clue. If you can't swim well with paddles, ankle band or pull bouy, you're probabaly using your strength to simply overcome balance and streamline inefficiencies in your stroke.

I would suggest working on balance, super man glide drills. STreamlning-> Skating drills. Slow down your stroke rate...get a tempo trainer and learn your current stroke rate, then you can use the tempo trainer to manipulate it.

Find a pace that you can swim continously for 300 yards or more (5 minutes or more), then work backwards from that pace. By doing so you'll address a different component of fitness rather than just the strength oriented one you're currently doing.

Changing up with the 32 x 25 set is a good call...but that's moving even further towards a strength/power orientation which is your natural strong point. Work on your weak points to make the fastest improvements. (longer slower intervals).

Yes, I know it sounds counter intuitive and counter to what many may suggest here. But it works...i've trained lots of triathletes at all distances and after awhile it's pretty easy to pick out areas for improvement based on hearing how people typically train. I help people get "unstuck"...you gotta do somethign that makes you feel uncomfortable (slow your rate, slow your kick, find yoru weak points, work on them...don't power through them )
2013-02-01 11:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
Interesting observations! Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

I will have to look up these balance/superman drills you speak of because I do not know what they are at all.

I could also add some slower longer intervals. Does 300 (as you mentioned) count as long enough? I'll have to figure out how many times to repeat it after I try it out a couple times.
2013-02-01 3:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim workout critique, pacing (beginner, be gentle!)
bigmike3541 - 2013-02-01 10:20 AM

Interesting observations! Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it.

I will have to look up these balance/superman drills you speak of because I do not know what they are at all.

I could also add some slower longer intervals. Does 300 (as you mentioned) count as long enough? I'll have to figure out how many times to repeat it after I try it out a couple times.


Is it at least 5 minutes?

One of my favorite "in the zone" swims is 3 rounds of 3 x 300 w/ ~ 02 seconds rest at my 800-1000yd pace.
I change things up so round 1 I'll use a tempo trainer
Round 2 I'll just use the pace clock and try to keep my SPL the same while the pace doesn't vary
Round 3 I'll see how I'm feeling, maybe increase the tempo a little with the tempo trainer, or do a little less rest.

You'll see that in every swim I do that's designed to improve my fitness, I'm always combining 2 of 3 metrics...pace and tempo, pace and SPL, SPL and tempo. Just one alone gives you limited information about your swim.
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