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WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
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Good idea49 Votes - [32.45%]
Bad idea102 Votes - [67.55%]

2013-02-20 4:16 PM

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Subject: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Rumor - WTC is implementing a wave swim start to replace mass swim starts, starting with IM CdA, to spread to all races

Discuss  



2013-02-20 4:21 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Alpharetta, Georgia
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I'd be interested to see how they enforce the cut-offs and time limits, with folks starting at all different times. 

One person could essentially be able to pass through a cut-off station and the next person not, if the 2nd person had started earlier.

Would volunteers have to individually check each person's wave by some designation (wrist band, body marking, etc.)?

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but difficult to implement effectively.

EDIT: Unless they set it up like Louisville and "too bad" if you start later in the wave starts? The race ends at midnight regardless... 



Edited by lisac957 2013-02-20 4:22 PM
2013-02-20 4:26 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Auckland 70.3 had wave starts, cut off remains the same it starts from the 'first wave'.  I was doing a team so I was in the last wave - scared the cr*p out of me!  My friend was in the first wave so had half an hour extra.

It's being done for safety I'm sure.  Probably easier to spread the paddlers and kayaks etc amongst waves rather than trying to watch over 1500 people all at the same time.

I personally would love this!

2013-02-20 4:37 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Master
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Kailua, Hawaii
Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

In regards to the poll, it's hard to choose.

Wave starts have their pros and cons as well.

Yes, they help break up the mass start issues...but...

-Faster swimmers from the latter waves run over the slower swimmers from the earlier waves.

-you don't know where you're at during the rest of the tri, since people are staggered

-your time is offset by X in relation to the race clock. another thing that messes with your head.

 

also I would think it's harder to watch all the waves for people in trouble...need more people on the water to cover. not sure if this is true.



Edited by metafizx 2013-02-20 4:42 PM
2013-02-20 4:42 PM
in reply to: #4630586

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
metafizx - 2013-02-20 5:37 PM

In regards to the poll, it's hard to choose.

Wave starts have their pros and cons as well.

Yes, they help break up the mass start issues...but...

-Faster swimmers from the latter waves run over the slower swimmers from the earlier waves.

-you don't know where you're at during the rest of the tri, since people are staggered

-your time is offset by X in relation to the race clock. another thing that messes with your head.

All those issues we have to deal with at most races anyway. The big deal with an IM (less so with HIM) are the cutoffs. As Lisa mentioned, very hard to manage.

2013-02-20 4:44 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I don't think that is a great idea.  I think the mass IM start is one of the many wonders of the sporting world.  Sure it will most definitely be safer for the majority of people.  I will be severly dissapointed if they implement this for IMWI before the 2013 race.

 



2013-02-20 4:47 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

Huh..

I wonder how much later the last wave would start at a race like Wisconsin where they have such a big area to swim..  Total of 5 minutes?  30 minutes?

I don't anticipate coming near the cutoffs...  However, the idea scares me since I haven't done one of these buggers yet...

2013-02-20 4:56 PM
in reply to: #4630545

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
lisac957 - 2013-02-20 2:21 PM

I'd be interested to see how they enforce the cut-offs and time limits, with folks starting at all different times. 

One person could essentially be able to pass through a cut-off station and the next person not, if the 2nd person had started earlier.

Would volunteers have to individually check each person's wave by some designation (wrist band, body marking, etc.)?

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but difficult to implement effectively.

EDIT: Unless they set it up like Louisville and "too bad" if you start later in the wave starts? The race ends at midnight regardless... 

I think the only "fair" way would be to push the end back to 12:30 THEN hopefully seed you fastest start first, slowest start last.  THAT way, the 30 extra minutes don't impact the fast people most likely.  And those that take the full time, will they get the same 17 hours.

Cutoffs stay the same?

No matter what, someone might get an advantage of up to 30 extra minutes.

Or screwed 30 minutes like you said.  You could fix that a little by putting slower people in the first wave.

OH!  Just thought of another problem.  They may need to seed people based on swim pace.  Starting slow swimmers first would let a lot of faster swimmers catch up and bottleneck the end of the swim.

No easy solution.

2013-02-20 5:02 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I love the mass start and the chaos.  It is a part of Ironman.  If it was supposed to be easy, they would have named it something else!

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.  One of the great things about an IM is that you know that if you are passing someone, you are passing them.  It was fun with my friends to have several of them pass me on the bike.  I knew that I would be coming out of the water with talented cyclists and runners, and was not surprised to have about 15% of the field pass me on the bike.

If you don't want to get in the washing machine, just wait about 1-2 minutes.

2013-02-20 5:04 PM
in reply to: #4630626

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Master
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 12:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

how about to ADD MORE PEOPLE?

2013-02-20 5:05 PM
in reply to: #4630545

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
lisac957 - 2013-02-20 5:21 PM

I'd be interested to see how they enforce the cut-offs and time limits, with folks starting at all different times. 

One person could essentially be able to pass through a cut-off station and the next person not, if the 2nd person had started earlier.

Would volunteers have to individually check each person's wave by some designation (wrist band, body marking, etc.)?

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but difficult to implement effectively.

EDIT: Unless they set it up like Louisville and "too bad" if you start later in the wave starts? The race ends at midnight regardless... 

 

A timing mat and a laptop at every cutoff station could do the trick.  As someone crosses the mat, the screen could put up the bib number for volunteers to pull.  Shouldn't be very tough at all to implement.

 

Overall, I don't think that I like the idea at all.  I prefer the idea that you are all out there together - started at the same time and all are racing each other and the same clock.  

In races with TT swim starts, you can look at a person in front of you on the bike or run and wonder if they're ahead of you or if you've already passed them on the clock... it kinda kills the enjoyment of passing someone.

 



2013-02-20 5:07 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Master
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
I like the mass start.  You know where you stand when it's all said and done.  C'mon people, first you take kick-ball/dodge ball out of elementary school, now mass starts from triathlon......It's Ironman, not cake decorating (not that there's anything wrong with cake, I love cake Smile).
2013-02-20 5:13 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Pro
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Bellingham, WA
Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I personally prefer races with a wave start.  It's just me versus the clock so I really don't care about position.  If I did care about position, I'd be starting with my AG anyway so not a big deal.

One thing I do not like about waves is that everyone around you seems to be swimming at a different pace.  In a mass start it seems that things sort out after a bit and everyone falls into a pace that is close to those around them.  In a large wave start race you are always coming up on slower swimmers or being passed.  Navigationally challenged people seem to create more havoc because you never get past them.  Just catch up to the tail of the next wave.

2013-02-20 5:14 PM
in reply to: #4630640

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
cgregg - 2013-02-20 3:05 PM
lisac957 - 2013-02-20 5:21 PM

I'd be interested to see how they enforce the cut-offs and time limits, with folks starting at all different times. 

One person could essentially be able to pass through a cut-off station and the next person not, if the 2nd person had started earlier.

Would volunteers have to individually check each person's wave by some designation (wrist band, body marking, etc.)?

Sounds like a good idea in theory, but difficult to implement effectively.

EDIT: Unless they set it up like Louisville and "too bad" if you start later in the wave starts? The race ends at midnight regardless... 

 

A timing mat and a laptop at every cutoff station could do the trick.  As someone crosses the mat, the screen could put up the bib number for volunteers to pull.  Shouldn't be very tough at all to implement.

 

Overall, I don't think that I like the idea at all.  I prefer the idea that you are all out there together - started at the same time and all are racing each other and the same clock.  

In races with TT swim starts, you can look at a person in front of you on the bike or run and wonder if they're ahead of you or if you've already passed them on the clock... it kinda kills the enjoyment of passing someone.

 

The tech is easy.  Pulling someone off, then having that person watch other people BEHIND them allowed to keep going?  Conflict.  But I guess if you expressly state that in the race documentation, they would have to understand...

2013-02-20 5:17 PM
in reply to: #4630667

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I wish we could add an "I don't care"  "I'm 50/50" as an option.  I can't decide if it's a good idea or a bad idea.

I'm perfectly fine with a mass start.

I also race the clock anyway, so the wave start is no issue.

I'm well under the 17 hours, so cutoffs and finishing don't play a factor (yet) either way.

Basically, I don't have a dog in this fight yet - so it's hard to say if it's a good/bad idea.

2013-02-20 5:19 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
ChrisM - 2013-02-21 6:16 AM

Rumor - WTC is implementing a wave swim start to replace mass swim starts, starting with IM CdA, to spread to all races

Discuss  

Where's the button for who gives a ... oh wait.

Actually, PERSONALLY, I really don't care one way or the other. I prefer mass starts; I'm fine with waves, self-seeded or no. As others have pointed out, it makes timing weird, but so what.

I think for safety reasons, even if the statistics don't necessarily bear them out (because numbers aren't everything), wave starts are probably wiser. There's no reason that there can't be big waves just a minute or so apart--any kind of thinning makes it easier for watercraft to keep an eye on the swimmers.



2013-02-20 5:20 PM
in reply to: #4630673

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
Kido - 2013-02-20 3:17 PM

I wish we could add an "I don't care"  "I'm 50/50" as an option.  I can't decide if it's a good idea or a bad idea.

I'm perfectly fine with a mass start.

I also race the clock anyway, so the wave start is no issue.

I'm well under the 17 hours, so cutoffs and finishing don't play a factor (yet) either way.

Basically, I don't have a dog in this fight yet - so it's hard to say if it's a good/bad idea.

Ha Ha.  Make yer own gosh dern poll then!   I didn't want the "meh" or "beet" responses.  People have to take a stand here if they want to vote 

ETA - Even if you aren't at risk of cutoff, it still might affect you depending on how it is implemented.  I hear in KY you have to go down early and get in line.  IM is already enough of an early day, without having to worry about getting in line, etc.



Edited by ChrisM 2013-02-20 5:21 PM
2013-02-20 5:28 PM
in reply to: #4630626

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 3:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

Probably because the want people to stop dieing in the mass swim starts.

"During this 6-year span ending with calendar-2011 there were 30 swim-related deaths, and 38 deaths in all." 

source http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Deaths_in_Triathlon_Study_Released_3190.html

2013-02-20 5:31 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

They already essentially have this at IM Louisville with the time trial swim start.

The swim cutoff is 2:20 after the _LAST_ swimmer enters the water, however the total race cutoff is still midnight.

2013-02-20 5:32 PM
in reply to: #4630692

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
dkahns51 - 2013-02-20 3:28 PM
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 3:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

Probably because the want people to stop dieing in the mass swim starts.

"During this 6-year span ending with calendar-2011 there were 30 swim-related deaths, and 38 deaths in all." 

source http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Deaths_in_Triathlon_Study_Released_3190.html

OK, not to sound too harsh, but they were not all (any?) mass starts.  And honestly, that's a pretty low death rate given participation over 6 years.

This is written by someone who needed medical assistance during a mass start IM, so I have personal acquaintance with the risks and challenges

2013-02-20 5:35 PM
in reply to: #4630701

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss

I never said it was a significant number of deaths. I was just pointing out why i think they would go about making decision like this.

im 50/50 don't care either way. People start in first wave that are fast, will be having to swim over the last wave during a 2nd loop course so that's a one bad part of a wave start.



2013-02-20 5:35 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
ChrisM - 2013-02-21 7:32 AM
dkahns51 - 2013-02-20 3:28 PM
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 3:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

Probably because the want people to stop dieing in the mass swim starts.

"During this 6-year span ending with calendar-2011 there were 30 swim-related deaths, and 38 deaths in all." 

source http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Deaths_in_Triathlon_Study_Released_3190.html

OK, not to sound too harsh, but they were not all (any?) mass starts.  And honestly, that's a pretty low death rate given participation over 6 years.

This is written by someone who needed medical assistance during a mass start IM, so I have personal acquaintance with the risks and challenges

I think one guy died during one IM swim last year.

2013-02-20 5:36 PM
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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
dkahns51 - 2013-02-20 3:28 PM
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 3:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

Probably because the want people to stop dieing in the mass swim starts.

"During this 6-year span ending with calendar-2011 there were 30 swim-related deaths, and 38 deaths in all." 

source http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Deaths_in_Triathlon_Study_Released_3190.html

If you read the article, though, you'll notice they found that:

Neither the length of the race, the venue (pool or open water), mass versus wave start, or athletic or race experience provided a common thread.

2013-02-20 5:39 PM
in reply to: #4630534

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
I agree with PGA Mike and Chris. Passing someone on an IM shouldn't be a game of where they started and the shorter cutoffs are just wrong.

Original time limit comes from Jim Collins finishing the first Ironman on Oahu in 17 hours. So if you finish in his time or under, you are an Ironman. If you don't, you're not.

Are death in the swim and the mass start are sufficiently correlated?
2013-02-20 5:39 PM
in reply to: #4630714

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Subject: RE: WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss
TriAya - 2013-02-20 3:35 PM
ChrisM - 2013-02-21 7:32 AM
dkahns51 - 2013-02-20 3:28 PM
pga_mike - 2013-02-20 3:02 PM

I CANNOT fathom why WTC would be considering this.

 

Probably because the want people to stop dieing in the mass swim starts.

"During this 6-year span ending with calendar-2011 there were 30 swim-related deaths, and 38 deaths in all." 

source http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Deaths_in_Triathlon_Study_Released_3190.html

OK, not to sound too harsh, but they were not all (any?) mass starts.  And honestly, that's a pretty low death rate given participation over 6 years.

This is written by someone who needed medical assistance during a mass start IM, so I have personal acquaintance with the risks and challenges

I think one guy died during one IM swim last year.

In NY.  In a TT start .   ETA - and apparently at Cour d Alene, but reports say that person held back after the mass start and started behind the pack with a friend

Change seems to be a solution looking for a problem, eh?



Edited by ChrisM 2013-02-20 5:50 PM
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