any religious people coming to terms with new found atheism? (Page 8)

That's an interesting angle.  Growing up I truly never understood old folks who wanted to instill a "fear of God" into their kids.  I still personally disagree with the tactic.

There's enough to fear out there as it is.  The world is filled with billions of examples of folks with no initiative, tons of fear, no moral compass.  I guess religion can be a tool to help better our kids' odds, but it's absolutely not the only (or in my opinion) the best tool out there.

btw, you described your son's best friend as "bratty selfish and overall entitled..."  Does your son view his best friend in this light?  Is he demonstrating similar traits?  One of the most underrated talents for young folks in my opinion is choosing friends effectively.  Yeah, we all kind of fall into certain classrooms, places, etc., but eventually the insightful kids are going to get away from the bad influences without having to be led away from them.  Since he's not a teen yet, there's still time if he doesn't recognize his friends' shortcomings.

I guess what I'm rambling about is...why fear anything?  Respect is earned and learned.  Religion is absolutely not required.  I've seen it used effectively and I've seen the best intentions backfire tremendously.  

I've had moments like you describe Tony. Adopting my kids for instance. We had been chosen by 3 previous birth mothers and 3 times they changed their minds. In our state birth mothers have a 72 hour window to change their minds. I was in a pretty bad place and losing focus of our original goal. Our caseworker wanted us to take a break - we said press on. I was feeling a little used and beat up and sorry for myself. Wondering why we kept being placed in this position. Was God testing me/us? What was the point?

Then one night we were out for my birthday dinner with my husbands entire family. There we sat crammed into a booth between all our little nieces and nephews and we got a phone call. How soon could we be home because we had been chosen again and this time our caseworker waited until the 72 hour window was over. A baby on my birthday. You can't make this stuff up. I stood up and told my MIL "Pack up my dinner. I'm going home to get a baby!" That was one of those moments that was a living example to me of what you always hear people say - God has a plan. Sort of an Ah Ha moment for me. What if I would have listened to my own pity and given up? Now I'm getting all choked up. My son loves this story and every year on my birthday he reminds me how he was the best present I ever received LOL .

I know this is just a story on the internet to the reader but when you are living it - it has such an impact.

I was not really looking for God at that time.  I had faith and I believed.

I agree with these ideas about fear. In general, I don't think fear is effective as a motivator. Fear motivates one just enough, and only enough, to avoid the negative consequences associated with whatever it is one fears. It does not motivate or inspire one to excel, to do extra. For example, at work. Employees who are motivated by fear will do just enough to not get fired and that's it. Kids told that X will happen to them if they don't get all As and Bs might get all As and Bs out of fear, but someday, when the parental threat is gone, it's likely they won't have anything else from which to draw motivation, and they'll regress.

I think fear, rather than spurring people on people to do things, mostly holds people back. Fear can only take one so far. To truly achieve, do great things, be a great person, motivation must come from somewhere else.

Just reading that made me emotional as well.  Such a great story. 

Awesome story and congratulations!! 

I don't know if your ways are in error or not, but if this exchange has caused you to decide that, then you're welcome... I guess...

Interesting thread. tl;dr

Why would you have to wait until you die? What if someone knocked on your door right now and asked you that  question?

And I often wonder if Jesus returned today would we treat the man any differently or if history would repeat itself.

Honestly, if I was asked that question:  "accept me and receive eternal life, or deny me and receive eternal torture," I'd probably puke in my mouth a little.  An all-powerful entity that would cast me away like garbage because I don't worship him?  It sounds like a plot format similar to Mean Girls...it sounds ridiculous to me personally.

...and I don't consider myself atheist.  I think agnostic is a better definition.  No human can prove the existence OR lack of existence of a God or gods.  There have been tons of religions developed over the years, all with good, bad, and ugly features.  Why hamstring myself limiting my imagination of a great beyond (or not so great beyond) to the constraints of someone else's imagination?

fantastic discussion...i am trying to catch up here and there.  i was raised catholic and loved it, really.  when i went away to college, i kind of drifted away from my faith, but wouldn't call it atheism, just selfish independence.

about 6 years ago i really wanted to get back in church, but went evangelical rather than catholic.  i thought a more bible-based church made more sense.  and i found an awesome community and a deep deep faith in god and wonderful relationship with him and my life CHANGED.  it was great.  i met my husband there. 

then...when i went through truly hard times...that church family abandoned me.  i still believe in god, i think, but struggle with what that really means.  but i want NOTHING to do with the people who call themselves his church, and can't help a girl going through the greatest challenge of her life, who hate people that sin differently than they do, that don't give of their time and money and heart like the bible challenges them.

and then there is the question of god...do i have free will?  am i being judged?  if god is all powerful and all loving, why did i have to suffer so much?  why do so many that are devout followers suffer so much?  i just can't figure out ... what is the POINT of an all-powerful creator that just sits by and lets evil win over and over and over again.  i'm not sure WHY i should bother to find a new church home, a new faith, just to be disappointed again...

That is crappy. If you decide to find another church do it for you. Because you want to hear God's word, receive communion etc. Filter out the noise. Maybe YOU can be the one who is there to offer comfort for some other young girl in trouble and be the example of exactly what you were looking for during your struggles. From my example earlier of our experience adopting - we could have quit and ended the process feeling used.  And I obviously don't know the specifics of your situation and don't mean to compare except for the example of how do you want the story to end so to speak? Do you want to let that experience and those people be the final chapter? Or is there more you are looking for and even more you have to offer?

I don't know, just something to think about. Sometimes I think I can get stuck thinking of what the church community is doing wrong, but what am I doing to make it right? And I'm just talking on a local level volunteering and what not.

Anyway, best wishes.

These "simple" questions are, IMO, the demise of the three major world religions. 

1) Free will: I'd like to think we have free will, but I will myself to believe so. The problem, as you're noting, is that if god created us, then we may not have free will, i.e. god already knows what we're going to do. And this is unlike us having children & not knowing what they are going to do b/c, we are told, god created us in an 'intelligent', conscious manner. Einstein believed that we do NOT have free will. But compare Sartre: We exist first, & our essence comes after & so, we do have free will.

2) The problem of evil: Yeah... sorry organized religion... NO way around this way. A compromise would be that along w/god, there exist an equally powerful but evil counterpart god. 

If you're interested, I did post a few comments on these matters.

Ultimately, I think faith is good. But it has to be legitimate... much like the Renaissance thinkers expounded, it should be in ourselves. I consider my son, not being here one day, and being here today, to be a REAL miracle. We don't have to look elsewhere for inspiration.

i certainly don't blame god for these selfish people, i know that is on them.  BUT, when i start to question if i want to go back to church and back to what i had with god, i find myself wondering what is the point?  i take care of myself, give what i can to others (which is more often money than time, and i hate that), try to be a good person, what is the point of going back?  people say for the community...well...the community is the problem. 

Marilyn, I think your question goes right to the heart of the Christian mystery.

Free will and suffering are intimately intertwined. The first is not possible without the possibility of the second.  The God who made us in his image, in other words with free will, entered history and then willingly suffered to redeem us.

The cross is both a gift from God and an invitation to enter more deeply into God's image.

That doesn't mean we should go looking to suffer or be masochists.  Rather, it is about entering into the cross when suffering is unavoidable.  

John Paul II wrote deeply about this in his Apostolic Letter Salvifici Dolores, Redemptive Suffering. Recommended reading.

Do you know the Franciscan priest Father Stan Fortuna?  He's a founding member of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.  They're a relatively new order of Franciscans. They live a life of poverty and work with the poor. The order started in the Bronx but is spreading fairly quickly.  

Father Stan is also a jazz musician.  For a while, he produced some rap and hip hop music as well.  Take a listen to this music video from a few years back. Everybody Got 2 Suffer.  It's about five minutes.

Father Stan based the music video on Salvifici Dolores.

Hang in there!

so my question is...why bother with god/church/etc when life just sucks sometimes, no matter who you are.

The answer is in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Here's an analogy. To get to the finish line in a triathlon, you need to suffer through training.  

We'll never completely eliminate suffering in this life.  Everybody's got a thing they gotta suffer.  Sometimes certain acts attempting to alleviate suffering are actually immoral and in time simply add to human suffering.

So if the ultimate fishing line is heaven, how do we bear that suffering in this pilgrim life on earth?  For that, Jesus gave us the Eucharist.  He is truly present to us here and now, body, blood, soul, and divinity. It is the source and summit of the Christian life.  It is a foretaste of heaven.

We're required to attend Mass week in and week out. This is required because it's good for us.  No matter how down we might be, there is the Eucharist.  It's there when we're happy as well, and every emotional state in between.

There is indeed meaning in human suffering.  With the Eucharist, we're given nourishment to strengthen us for the race.  The farther you go, the more suffering will make sense.

yeah...that does not help much at all.  certainly doesn't apply to my situation in the least.  taking communion helps me get through suffering?  nope.

some people just are going to have hardships and i understand faith as a coping mechanism, but it just isn't going to work for everyone.

I know it hurts. I'm sorry for your pain.

Let me suggest this. Take your pain before the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration.  Try just sitting there with it in silence before Jesus.  No need to interact with anyone else. Here's a site to find Adoration in your area.  Just put in your zip and then search the page for "Adoration". 

I'll pray for you. Please pray for me.

I think it depends on how one defines... faith.

And when you say "it isn't going to work" what are you meaning by that? Are you talking about "peace"? Because, having peace can help people cope with all kinds of difficult situations. 

I do not think we are ever promised that life won;t be hard or have trials. And I understand that the Church as an entire group will have faults, but my family has made contacts with 3 or 4 families that we have grown with and have such a strong bond that we met at church. I know we do not have to go to church to have this bond, we could met at someone house just as well, which we do, but my point is that in any church there will be issues when you get a large group of people. For us, finding those couples that are in the same stage of life as us has been a blessing!

define it how you want - church, religion, god, etc.  if it was a solution for everyone, there would be no atheists.  that's all i'm saying.  i understand that it works for some people.  to me, it's pretty meaningless.

well.. I believe that Atheism is pretty much a set of strongly defined beliefs. If one is taking the time to define their disbelief in religion, there is a reason.. therefor one is getting SOMETHING out of doing that. I kind of feel that an agnostic is the least religious person.

Personally, I think sometimes people define religion/spirituality a certain way, make a judgement,  turn their backs.. and miss out. 

On what?

It's interesting, then, that by and large, atheists and agnostics score the highest when it comes to religious knowledge, and know more about religion, in general, than the "religious."

The Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released a survey on religious knowledge today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons, all Christians, Protestants and Catholics, were far behind.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious

I think it's partially because many of us spend time thinking about and considering different aspects of different religions, rather than adhering to dogma laid down by people who lived thousands of years ago. So, if by "least religious," you mean "most thoughtful," I'm on board with that.