Other Resources My Cup of Joe » Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism) Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, the bear, DerekL, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 3
 
 
2013-03-07 9:19 AM
in reply to: #4649878

Master
2083
2000252525
Houston, TX
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
sesh - 2013-03-07 8:37 AM
Left Brain - 2013-03-06 9:21 AM
sesh - 2013-03-06 8:39 AM

He said that if an American had to kill a pig or cow they'd raised from birth, they'd eat a whole lot less meat.

Not THIS American, and not any beef or pig farmer I know either. 

I think a balanced diet is the key. 

I eat meat....I will always eat meat. We also eat a ton of turkey, chicken,  fish, fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and beans.  

You absolutely DON'T have to buy your meat from sources you are not comfortable with.  I'd rather eat a steak from a cow that had a name, like this one from last night.

 

I'll clarify the point he was making.  Overall, as a society, we'd eat less beef.  When you grew and then slaughtered a cow, you aren't going to cut out the tenderloin, a few porterhouses, a few strips, and then toss the rest away.  The problem comes in to play when meat becomes a package on a grocery shelf.  We don't see it as a whole cow, just a delicious looking cut.  For example, we want more ribeyes or sirloins so we slaughter enough cows in big production to meet that need.  Nevermind the rest of the animal.  If you owned and killed the entire cow, you'd eat the entire thing, providing many, many, many, many meals on one animal.  Might even get you through a year.  As it stands with production today, people are responsible for eating the meat from who knows how many animals because they like a certain type of steak.  For them, it's not an animal, it's a grocery product.  That's where big production steps in and that's where I see the problem.  Most people are comfortable with not even thinking of what they are eating as a former living being.  So, they buy bulk chicken breasts, along with many others, and that means a whole lot of chickens are slaughtered for one cut.  Chicken breast has become more or less a can of beans.

As an aside, my favorite cut of beef is the cheek.  You can have all the tenderloin or ribeye you want.  

I think his statement is true that we would eat less, but for a separate reason..... it's a WHOLE LOT MORE WORK.  As a society we're pretty lazy and it would hit our pocket books in a different way.  It's also a completely different lifestyle.  The closer you are to your food the more conservative you are with it, IMO.  Considerably less thrown out.

While your statement is correct that people want specific cuts of meat, the rest is ground up and utilized in a different way.  Your statement somewhat insinuates that the tenderloin and ribeye's are cut out and the rest is thrown out.  Meat is a business like anything else and they will use every last bit of it they can.  The entire cow is process in one way shape or form.

It reminds me a story my dad told me when I was kid.  He is a risk manager for a company who owns an extensive number of rendering plants.  He had just returned from a business trip where he was dealing with an injury claim and the story was a bit out of the ordinary.  A cow had gotten out of the fencing from it's ranch and been struck on the road and killed.  It was picked up and transported to one of their rendering plants and was subsequently being lanced due to the bloat from the death and heat.  When they lanced it the cow exploded and a rib  impaled one of the workers.  After inquiring about the worker I asked what they did with the cow, and he said they processed it as normal.  I asked if it went into bone meal for agricultural feed or what, and he said possible but not likely as that particular plant largely serviced a large food producer (among other facilities).  While he wasn't 100% positive exactly where that particular cow ended up, we were no longer allowed to purchase any of that food producers products.

 



2013-03-07 9:30 AM
in reply to: #4649878

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
sesh - 2013-03-07 8:37 AM
Left Brain - 2013-03-06 9:21 AM
sesh - 2013-03-06 8:39 AM

He said that if an American had to kill a pig or cow they'd raised from birth, they'd eat a whole lot less meat.

Not THIS American, and not any beef or pig farmer I know either. 

I think a balanced diet is the key. 

I eat meat....I will always eat meat. We also eat a ton of turkey, chicken,  fish, fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and beans.  

You absolutely DON'T have to buy your meat from sources you are not comfortable with.  I'd rather eat a steak from a cow that had a name, like this one from last night.

 

I'll clarify the point he was making.  Overall, as a society, we'd eat less beef.  When you grew and then slaughtered a cow, you aren't going to cut out the tenderloin, a few porterhouses, a few strips, and then toss the rest away.  The problem comes in to play when meat becomes a package on a grocery shelf.  We don't see it as a whole cow, just a delicious looking cut.  For example, we want more ribeyes or sirloins so we slaughter enough cows in big production to meet that need.  Nevermind the rest of the animal.  If you owned and killed the entire cow, you'd eat the entire thing, providing many, many, many, many meals on one animal.  Might even get you through a year.  As it stands with production today, people are responsible for eating the meat from who knows how many animals because they like a certain type of steak.  For them, it's not an animal, it's a grocery product.  That's where big production steps in and that's where I see the problem.  Most people are comfortable with not even thinking of what they are eating as a former living being.  So, they buy bulk chicken breasts, along with many others, and that means a whole lot of chickens are slaughtered for one cut.  Chicken breast has become more or less a can of beans.

As an aside, my favorite cut of beef is the cheek.  You can have all the tenderloin or ribeye you want.  

I'm going to go out on a very short limb here and say that you have NEVER been in a slaughterhouse.  Exactly what part of a cow or chicken or pig do you think gets thrown away or wasted?  I'll help you out......NONE.  In fact, your example leaves a carcass of bones....you won't likely find that in a slaughterhouse as the bone meal after it is ground up goes into dog food and other products.  Those little chicks you saw being thrown into the grinder in the video clip.....same thing. 

Large food companies that buy/raise cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys aren't in the habit of wasting ANY part of the animal.....that just cuts into their profit.

There is nothing in your post that is factual. 

2013-03-07 10:03 AM
in reply to: #4649069

Regular
147
10025
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
dontracy - 2013-03-06 3:18 PM

riltri - 

We are all animals.  All animals have evolved in differing ways.  There is no difference in the order of creation.

OK.

Do you believe in natural rights?

I don't know where you live, but the Unite States was founded on the notion that there are inalienable natural rights, such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Do you believe that?

If not, where do we get our rights from?

If so, does it follow then that a mouse for example and a human being have the same inalienable natural rights?

I believe that humans have assigned those rights upon the human species for several reasons.  They were not "given" to us by a god.  I'm not necessarily saying that that is bad or un-needed.  As with all animals, humans have needed to survive and our species did so by eating meat.  Humans evolved as omnivores.  Today, we do have a choice of remaining omnivores or being herbivores.  IMPO it is perfectly alright to remain an omnivore, I choose not to.

I also understand that creationist feel that God bestowed upon them inalienable rights and that humans are superior in that regard to all other creatures.  That is fine.  My wife believes this and it is her choice.  I do not share that specific belief.

 

2013-03-07 11:18 AM
in reply to: #4649983

User image

Champion
5117
5000100
Brandon, MS
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
Left Brain - 2013-03-07 9:30 AM
sesh - 2013-03-07 8:37 AM
Left Brain - 2013-03-06 9:21 AM
sesh - 2013-03-06 8:39 AM

He said that if an American had to kill a pig or cow they'd raised from birth, they'd eat a whole lot less meat.

Not THIS American, and not any beef or pig farmer I know either. 

I think a balanced diet is the key. 

I eat meat....I will always eat meat. We also eat a ton of turkey, chicken,  fish, fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and beans.  

You absolutely DON'T have to buy your meat from sources you are not comfortable with.  I'd rather eat a steak from a cow that had a name, like this one from last night.

 

I'll clarify the point he was making.  Overall, as a society, we'd eat less beef.  When you grew and then slaughtered a cow, you aren't going to cut out the tenderloin, a few porterhouses, a few strips, and then toss the rest away.  The problem comes in to play when meat becomes a package on a grocery shelf.  We don't see it as a whole cow, just a delicious looking cut.  For example, we want more ribeyes or sirloins so we slaughter enough cows in big production to meet that need.  Nevermind the rest of the animal.  If you owned and killed the entire cow, you'd eat the entire thing, providing many, many, many, many meals on one animal.  Might even get you through a year.  As it stands with production today, people are responsible for eating the meat from who knows how many animals because they like a certain type of steak.  For them, it's not an animal, it's a grocery product.  That's where big production steps in and that's where I see the problem.  Most people are comfortable with not even thinking of what they are eating as a former living being.  So, they buy bulk chicken breasts, along with many others, and that means a whole lot of chickens are slaughtered for one cut.  Chicken breast has become more or less a can of beans.

As an aside, my favorite cut of beef is the cheek.  You can have all the tenderloin or ribeye you want.  

I'm going to go out on a very short limb here and say that you have NEVER been in a slaughterhouse.  Exactly what part of a cow or chicken or pig do you think gets thrown away or wasted?  I'll help you out......NONE.  In fact, your example leaves a carcass of bones....you won't likely find that in a slaughterhouse as the bone meal after it is ground up goes into dog food and other products.  Those little chicks you saw being thrown into the grinder in the video clip.....same thing. 

Large food companies that buy/raise cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys aren't in the habit of wasting ANY part of the animal.....that just cuts into their profit.

There is nothing in your post that is factual. 

That's where we differ then.  The way they turn a profit is just disrespectful to the animal in my opinion.  When I say you wouldn't toss the rest away, I didn't mean slaughterhouses do that.  Just that if you kept a typical American eating habit, that's basically what you're doing to the cow.  You're leaving it up to a large company to find a use for the rest of more animals than you would otherwise consume.  

My point remains.  If meat hadn't become a packaged good on a shelf, there wouldn't be a need to find alternative uses for the rest of the animal.  Overall, we'd slaughter less animals.  We're creating uses for left over animal parts so we can feed our meat craving.



Edited by sesh 2013-03-07 11:22 AM
2013-03-07 11:46 AM
in reply to: #4646206

User image

Master
2504
2000500
Southwest Iowa
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)

So does this hold true to every product on a grocery shelf, or just to meat?  The meat packing plants that use as much as they possibly can of the meat is a bad thing, because of the way the animal is handled, cut and packaged?  Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they were only using a very small portion of the animal and throwing the rest into a land fill or a bio-waste facility????

So, do you 100% support yourself in your nutrition?  Do you raise everything you eat and drink 100% of the time?

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

2013-03-07 11:54 AM
in reply to: #4650283

User image

Champion
10018
50005000
, Minnesota
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
flip18436572 - 2013-03-07 11:46 AM

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

What?  That never happens around here...



2013-03-07 11:59 AM
in reply to: #4650283

User image

Champion
5117
5000100
Brandon, MS
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
flip18436572 - 2013-03-07 11:46 AM

So does this hold true to every product on a grocery shelf, or just to meat?  The meat packing plants that use as much as they possibly can of the meat is a bad thing, because of the way the animal is handled, cut and packaged?  Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they were only using a very small portion of the animal and throwing the rest into a land fill or a bio-waste facility????

So, do you 100% support yourself in your nutrition?  Do you raise everything you eat and drink 100% of the time?

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

My point is that we have created the need to find ways to use leftover animal parts because of our increased demand for certain cuts of meat.  It's our own fault.  

And I try to be as conscious as I can when I shop and cook.  I'll visit a local fish market when I'm on the coast and try to buy whole fish to freeze.  The left over bones and guts are good in the garden.  I eat minimal amounts of beef and no chicken.  In the summer, I grow about 70% of the veges I eat, and I compost my vege scraps.  I'm far from perfect, but I try to be more aware of how what I eat is produced.

2013-03-07 12:01 PM
in reply to: #4650224

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
sesh - 2013-03-07 11:18 AM
Left Brain - 2013-03-07 9:30 AM
sesh - 2013-03-07 8:37 AM
Left Brain - 2013-03-06 9:21 AM
sesh - 2013-03-06 8:39 AM

He said that if an American had to kill a pig or cow they'd raised from birth, they'd eat a whole lot less meat.

Not THIS American, and not any beef or pig farmer I know either. 

I think a balanced diet is the key. 

I eat meat....I will always eat meat. We also eat a ton of turkey, chicken,  fish, fresh fruit, vegetables, nuts, and beans.  

You absolutely DON'T have to buy your meat from sources you are not comfortable with.  I'd rather eat a steak from a cow that had a name, like this one from last night.

 

I'll clarify the point he was making.  Overall, as a society, we'd eat less beef.  When you grew and then slaughtered a cow, you aren't going to cut out the tenderloin, a few porterhouses, a few strips, and then toss the rest away.  The problem comes in to play when meat becomes a package on a grocery shelf.  We don't see it as a whole cow, just a delicious looking cut.  For example, we want more ribeyes or sirloins so we slaughter enough cows in big production to meet that need.  Nevermind the rest of the animal.  If you owned and killed the entire cow, you'd eat the entire thing, providing many, many, many, many meals on one animal.  Might even get you through a year.  As it stands with production today, people are responsible for eating the meat from who knows how many animals because they like a certain type of steak.  For them, it's not an animal, it's a grocery product.  That's where big production steps in and that's where I see the problem.  Most people are comfortable with not even thinking of what they are eating as a former living being.  So, they buy bulk chicken breasts, along with many others, and that means a whole lot of chickens are slaughtered for one cut.  Chicken breast has become more or less a can of beans.

As an aside, my favorite cut of beef is the cheek.  You can have all the tenderloin or ribeye you want.  

I'm going to go out on a very short limb here and say that you have NEVER been in a slaughterhouse.  Exactly what part of a cow or chicken or pig do you think gets thrown away or wasted?  I'll help you out......NONE.  In fact, your example leaves a carcass of bones....you won't likely find that in a slaughterhouse as the bone meal after it is ground up goes into dog food and other products.  Those little chicks you saw being thrown into the grinder in the video clip.....same thing. 

Large food companies that buy/raise cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys aren't in the habit of wasting ANY part of the animal.....that just cuts into their profit.

There is nothing in your post that is factual. 

That's where we differ then.  The way they turn a profit is just disrespectful to the animal in my opinion.  When I say you wouldn't toss the rest away, I didn't mean slaughterhouses do that.  Just that if you kept a typical American eating habit, that's basically what you're doing to the cow.  You're leaving it up to a large company to find a use for the rest of more animals than you would otherwise consume.  

My point remains.  If meat hadn't become a packaged good on a shelf, there wouldn't be a need to find alternative uses for the rest of the animal.  Overall, we'd slaughter less animals.  We're creating uses for left over animal parts so we can feed our meat craving.

Sesh - we buy our beef "on the hoof".  We eat all of the meat.  I don't care what happens to the rest of it because I can't eat it.....and it's dead because it's food, not because I needed a leather jacket. 

It's the same way if I kill a deer, or some ducks, or whatever.  The real answer as to why more people don't get their meat this way is because it's more of a headache, and it can now actually be more expensive if you don't butcher yourself. (thanks to the stores such as Costco, etc. who sell meat at very low prices compared to what it cost us per lb. to buy and have butchered and wrapped)

I'm never eating less meat..........like........ever. Laughing



Edited by Left Brain 2013-03-07 12:02 PM
2013-03-07 12:24 PM
in reply to: #4650316

User image

Master
2504
2000500
Southwest Iowa
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
sesh - 2013-03-07 11:59 AM
flip18436572 - 2013-03-07 11:46 AM

So does this hold true to every product on a grocery shelf, or just to meat?  The meat packing plants that use as much as they possibly can of the meat is a bad thing, because of the way the animal is handled, cut and packaged?  Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they were only using a very small portion of the animal and throwing the rest into a land fill or a bio-waste facility????

So, do you 100% support yourself in your nutrition?  Do you raise everything you eat and drink 100% of the time?

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

My point is that we have created the need to find ways to use leftover animal parts because of our increased demand for certain cuts of meat.  It's our own fault.  

And I try to be as conscious as I can when I shop and cook.  I'll visit a local fish market when I'm on the coast and try to buy whole fish to freeze.  The left over bones and guts are good in the garden.  I eat minimal amounts of beef and no chicken.  In the summer, I grow about 70% of the veges I eat, and I compost my vege scraps.  I'm far from perfect, but I try to be more aware of how what I eat is produced.

But it is OK to only use the perfectly looking vegetables, that are done the same way with large producers, because they can't be sold to the general public.  So that waste is ok, but not wasting anything from a cow, pig, chicken is not to be done....

 

2013-03-07 12:55 PM
in reply to: #4650316

User image

Champion
11989
500050001000500100100100100252525
Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
sesh - 2013-03-07 12:59 PM
flip18436572 - 2013-03-07 11:46 AM

So does this hold true to every product on a grocery shelf, or just to meat?  The meat packing plants that use as much as they possibly can of the meat is a bad thing, because of the way the animal is handled, cut and packaged?  Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they were only using a very small portion of the animal and throwing the rest into a land fill or a bio-waste facility????

So, do you 100% support yourself in your nutrition?  Do you raise everything you eat and drink 100% of the time?

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

My point is that we have created the need to find ways to use leftover animal parts because of our increased demand for certain cuts of meat.  

How did you come to that conclusion? Is there some research or data?

2013-03-07 1:29 PM
in reply to: #4650452

User image

Champion
5117
5000100
Brandon, MS
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
mrbbrad - 2013-03-07 12:55 PM
sesh - 2013-03-07 12:59 PM
flip18436572 - 2013-03-07 11:46 AM

So does this hold true to every product on a grocery shelf, or just to meat?  The meat packing plants that use as much as they possibly can of the meat is a bad thing, because of the way the animal is handled, cut and packaged?  Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they were only using a very small portion of the animal and throwing the rest into a land fill or a bio-waste facility????

So, do you 100% support yourself in your nutrition?  Do you raise everything you eat and drink 100% of the time?

I want to write more, but I am sure it will all get twisted and argued......

My point is that we have created the need to find ways to use leftover animal parts because of our increased demand for certain cuts of meat.  

How did you come to that conclusion? Is there some research or data?

Knowledge of the chicken industry through work.  It responds to demand for breasts, or thighs, or whatever.  The whole chicken is rarely a product that drives production.  For example, the whole bird flu thing years back seriously hurt the demand around the world for dark meat from the US.  At least the demand from the producers in our market was hurt.  That didn't mean production of total birds went down, because breast meat demand remained high in the US.  Producers scrambled to contract with pet food companies and other industries so they could at least make some money back on the remaining parts of the bird they were otherwise having to dispose of.



2013-03-07 4:01 PM
in reply to: #4646206

Expert
763
5001001002525
Behind you
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)

"Has anyone switched to vegan?  Thought about it?  I am going to be exploring this for ethical and health reasons. "

 

I've switched to strict vegan after my brother in law (age 52) passed away on Christmas of last year with a massive heart attack.  He was a butcher at a grocery that ate red meat and animal products for every meal his entire life.

I've watched vegucated, food inc, fat/sick/nearly dead, forks over knives, and any anti monsanto documentaries as possible in the last 3 months. 

In regards to health veganism, I've went down about 23lbs since I've switched to vegan.  I've research all heirloom/organic NON GMO seed companies that I could and purchased some for this growing season.  My goal this year is to "survive" at least 3 months on everything that comes out of my garden and nothing else except any supplemental vitamins that might be lost with some nutrients that I'm not growing.  I feel great right now eating any fruits and veggies stuffed with GMO atoms, so I bet I'll feel even better with my non gmo foods. 

In regards to ethical vegan reasons, if you noticed in Vegucated, the main reason they switched was for health reasons and soon turned to ethical reasons, thus makes me think those that throw off on vegans are in a guilty mode thus wanting to put vegans down.  Just my thoughts and I know this comment will open a whole can of worms. 

As for environmental vegan reasons, there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not doing something to protect the environment.  Going vegan is just a plus in my book.  I've even started beekeeping to help the environment as well as the ethical side.

2013-03-07 4:11 PM
in reply to: #4650841

User image

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
TeamAngel - 2013-03-07 4:01 PM

"Has anyone switched to vegan?  Thought about it?  I am going to be exploring this for ethical and health reasons. "

 

I've switched to strict vegan after my brother in law (age 52) passed away on Christmas of last year with a massive heart attack.  He was a butcher at a grocery that ate red meat and animal products for every meal his entire life.

I've watched vegucated, food inc, fat/sick/nearly dead, forks over knives, and any anti monsanto documentaries as possible in the last 3 months. 

In regards to health veganism, I've went down about 23lbs since I've switched to vegan.  I've research all heirloom/organic NON GMO seed companies that I could and purchased some for this growing season.  My goal this year is to "survive" at least 3 months on everything that comes out of my garden and nothing else except any supplemental vitamins that might be lost with some nutrients that I'm not growing.  I feel great right now eating any fruits and veggies stuffed with GMO atoms, so I bet I'll feel even better with my non gmo foods. 

In regards to ethical vegan reasons, if you noticed in Vegucated, the main reason they switched was for health reasons and soon turned to ethical reasons, thus makes me think those that throw off on vegans are in a guilty mode thus wanting to put vegans down.  Just my thoughts and I know this comment will open a whole can of worms. 

As for environmental vegan reasons, there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not doing something to protect the environment.  Going vegan is just a plus in my book.  I've even started beekeeping to help the environment as well as the ethical side.

Huh?

I have to say........I don't see vegans getting put down much.  Who cares if someone wants to not eat meat? 

On the other hand, I frequently see vegans up on a high horse about their choice.....kind of like you just did.

I don't feel guilty about eating meat or killing animals for food......and I never will. 

2013-03-07 4:20 PM
in reply to: #4646206

User image

Champion
10550
500050005002525
Austin, Texas
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)

Yep, I've seen Vegucated as well as Food Inc. (thank you Netflix) and I'm still a strict carnivore with no qualms at all about eating animals for food. 

2013-03-07 5:23 PM
in reply to: #4650857

User image

Alpharetta, Georgia
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
Left Brain - 2013-03-07 4:11 PM

I have to say........I don't see vegans getting put down much.  Who cares if someone wants to not eat meat? 

People are weird about what other people eat. Not anyone in this thread, of course.

But having food restrictions my entire life, my personal experience is that about half of the people don't care and half are condescending and question with the intent of "catching" you or making you feel bad about your choice. Regardless of the food restriction.

2013-03-07 6:14 PM
in reply to: #4650065

User image

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism)
riltri - I believe that humans have assigned those rights upon the human species for several reasons.  They were not "given" to us by a god.  I'm not necessarily saying that that is bad or un-needed.  As with all animals, humans have needed to survive and our species did so by eating meat.  Humans evolved as omnivores.  Today, we do have a choice of remaining omnivores or being herbivores.  IMPO it is perfectly alright to remain an omnivore, I choose not to.

I also understand that creationist feel that God bestowed upon them inalienable rights and that humans are superior in that regard to all other creatures.  That is fine.  My wife believes this and it is her choice.  I do not share that specific belief.

OK.

If human beings created natural rights such as life and liberty, then human beings can rescind those rights.

If that's the case, then we'd be living in a nietzschean post christian world of the will to power.  That wouldn't be a nice world.

I'm cool with you being a pescatarian.  Maybe we can go fishing together sometime. It seems you're cool with me being an omnivore.  So I think we're good.



New Thread
Other Resources My Cup of Joe » Seen Vegucated? (or, a general question about Veganism) Rss Feed  
 
 
of 3