Pop Quiz - Why we (the US) are to blame for 9/11 (Page 3)

What is safe to say is that I'm not inclined to get into a conversation about our nations political policies, beliefs, and actions with a 10 year old as reason or rational that fanatical psychopaths brutally murdered 3000 people.  Again we're talking about 5th graders here... not a graduate level political science course.  

You were living it in the moment... these kids are being taught 9/11 as a history lesson.  Besides, what did I indicate in my theoretical response that was BS?

Sounds like you are accusing people of just randomly use 9/11 as a "repercussions of your actions" lesson?

They were ALREADY talking about 9/11 and part of that discussion is that our actions as a nation impact other people, enough for them to have an excuse to do us harm.

No one is suggesting using the murder of 3000 people as an analogy to explain why you shouldn't throw rocks on the highway or leave the milk out or squishing Twinkies.

There is a difference between talking about 9/11 and bringing up a "repercussion to your actions" point than talking about "repercussion to your actions" and bringing up 9/11.

I think everyone here is talking about the former.

WOW on some of the comments here.

Semper Fi

I never said or implied that your response was BS. I said that kids are more astute than we usually give them credit for, and that they have excellent BS detectors. There is a short answer to why 9/11 occurred and a much longer answer. I think that, in the context of a history class, they can discuss and comprehend at least part of that longer answer.

For sure at the time we were living in the moment. I was actually flying from Trenton to Boston that morning, and had no idea what happened until we landed and I turned on my cell phone. The second tower came down just as I was getting into a car. It took 3 days to get home and all that time my wife was dealing with the kids, school, our neighbors, etc.

Like you there is a part of me that wants to hold on to that anger and never forget what happened that day, because if we let our guard down it will happen again. That's also part of the lesson and discussion with the kids. You think they don't notice the armed Homeland Security presence at the Constitution Center, the Amtrak station, and the airport? 9/11 is history, but we are still living with the repercussions, and will be for quite some time. In the context of a history lesson, you teach background leading up to the events being studied.

Well, two of mine are home-schooled, so I teach them that. I'd use "overweight" instead of "fat" (if it were relevant, since they are skinny). I wouldn't go out of my way to make it as horrible as possible, but hiding facts and reality and raising them in a bubble? Not an option.

And yes, my kids are aware that people do evil things in this world, for reasons which we might not agree with, even if the reasons seem logical to them. And they are all younger then fifth grade.

At what stage do you think children should learn about the real world?

Sous......I agree with your posts and sentiments....and I told my kids the same....some people just hate other people because of their beliefs.  Yes, my kids are more sophisticated than  that as well.....but it's not a complicated concept, and I don't see any reason for them to feel they need to worry about the politics of a group that kills innocent people in an act of terrorism.

Sure....you can say it's because of our policies and blah,blah,blah......but then you'd have to explain attacks on British soil, French soil, Israel, and the atrocities in Somolia, Yemen, and on and on.  If you want, you can say it's because they hate jelly donuts, I don't care.

Muslim fanatics are just that to me.......fanatics.  When they say they hate all "infidels" and will be rewarded for killing us I take them at their word considering their track record.

You can make any excuse for it you feel good about......I just listen to them. 

That cute baby you put to bed last night or your beautiful wife, or that sweet mother that brought you into this world, get a good mental picture.  Now, imagine you can't even find a body part from 9/11 to bury.  Imagine the heat of those flames, the fear, them calling your name or wondering why at that moment.

Seriously, think about it, now, are your comments the same that we did something to deserve this.  It's your family gone now, not somebody else's that you don't know.   If you still feel it was our fault or the US policies caused this, you are a fool.

There will always be animosity and hate towards the US, always.

You will never make everybody happy all the time and on a venue as larry as the world stage you will even make some people angry most of the time. Even when you do your best to do what is right from the purest intentions, someone will disagree with you and be angry. When you are "top dog" or at least among the "top dogs" you will then be the target for animosity and grievance. There will always be those willing to hurt others in the name of power and politics so you do your best to do what is "most right" and you deal with the bad actors as they come. Appeasement will get you nothing in the end.... Walk softly and carry a BIG stick.

Agreed! You should always know your enemy, his weaknesses, his strengths, and his motivations, at least as well as you know yourself. I only quoted you because it was the most relevant of a conglomerate of ideas

What exactly is "untrue" about what I said.... you think that any of the reasons we were attacked can't be summed up to a 10 year old as " they did it because they hate our way of life"?  

And do you really think that "some people will always hate us" isn't true?  Pretty sure that every single thing that can be considered "American way of life" is completely despised by Muslim radicals.  So unless they or we do a complete 180 they will always hate us.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:16 PM

scorpio516 - 2013-03-23 7:46 PM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:04 AM

Many historians believe the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they believed the U.S. was preparing to enter WWII anyway in the near-term and made a strategic calculation to strike us pre-emptively. I don't see how that dishonors the people who died on that day.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

 

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

Many do, and I am going to say with 100% confidence that I know many more military historians than you do And I'm not saying that like it's a good thing...And as far as the "they attacked us because they hate our way of life" refrain - AQ really doesn't care how Americans live their lives. Do they find our way of life vulgar and decadent? Absolutely. But UBL's motives for founding AQ, which have been articulated loudly, publicy, and repeatedly, is that the U.S. is the enemy because we provide backing to two infidel regimes that are currently occupying, in their mind, Muslim holy land - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are the three holiest sites in Islam. AQ believes these sites are being corrupted by the U.S.-sustained Israeli and Saudi governments. They have articulated this over, and over, and over again. And they actually laugh at us when we say they attacked us because they "hate our way of life/freedom/whatever." Bin Laden actually directly addressed this in an interview before his death and retorted "if that is the case, how come we didn't attack Sweden then?" Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence to achieve political ends. All terrorist organizations have an ideology and political goals - that's what distinguishes a terrorist group from a good old-fashioned criminal organization. Often their political goals are a bit, well, crazy, but they pretty much all have clearly articulated political goals. That is how they attract membership and financial support. That's how Al-Qaida grew to what it was in 2000-2001 - they didn't recruit donors and people by saying "let's destroy freedom and apple pie!" They did it by saying "let's drive the infidels from Muslim land."This is perhaps a little too advanced for a 5th grader, but I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching kids that the world is, in fact, a rather complex place. I don't see how society benefits from raising more simple-minded people.

All Meglomaniacs need a rallying cry and an archenemy. They also tend to need poor, uneducated, disaffected young men for cannon fodder/suicide bombers. The US just makes for the biggest target on the world stage. Our support of "infidel regimes" is the excuse AQ uses for their actions but their ultimate goal is to be the ones in power in the middle east and to remake it into what they deem to be acceptable. If you hit the Saudis it does not make the same splash as hitting the US. It is the same concept as a Super Bowl ad in terms of fundraising and recruiting, - Go big or go home! What you have is people who want to revive the middle east of the Dark ages when Muslim culture there was in its ascendency and a bright spot in the world. If you give AQ everything they want in the middle east they will still find a beef with the rest of the world and the US in particular until they are the ones "on top" again. Ultimately it is about power, they want it, we have it. What they fail to realize is that it is our way of life, freedom and apple pie that has allowed us to be where we are on the world stage. The other thing they fail to realize is that we will bring ourselves down in time, all empires do.

Brits lecturing Americans on foreign policy?...now that's precious...

trinnas - 2013-03-24 6:04 AM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:16 PM

scorpio516 - 2013-03-23 7:46 PM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:04 AM

Many historians believe the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they believed the U.S. was preparing to enter WWII anyway in the near-term and made a strategic calculation to strike us pre-emptively. I don't see how that dishonors the people who died on that day.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

 

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

Many do, and I am going to say with 100% confidence that I know many more military historians than you do And I'm not saying that like it's a good thing...And as far as the "they attacked us because they hate our way of life" refrain - AQ really doesn't care how Americans live their lives. Do they find our way of life vulgar and decadent? Absolutely. But UBL's motives for founding AQ, which have been articulated loudly, publicy, and repeatedly, is that the U.S. is the enemy because we provide backing to two infidel regimes that are currently occupying, in their mind, Muslim holy land - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are the three holiest sites in Islam. AQ believes these sites are being corrupted by the U.S.-sustained Israeli and Saudi governments. They have articulated this over, and over, and over again. And they actually laugh at us when we say they attacked us because they "hate our way of life/freedom/whatever." Bin Laden actually directly addressed this in an interview before his death and retorted "if that is the case, how come we didn't attack Sweden then?" Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence to achieve political ends. All terrorist organizations have an ideology and political goals - that's what distinguishes a terrorist group from a good old-fashioned criminal organization. Often their political goals are a bit, well, crazy, but they pretty much all have clearly articulated political goals. That is how they attract membership and financial support. That's how Al-Qaida grew to what it was in 2000-2001 - they didn't recruit donors and people by saying "let's destroy freedom and apple pie!" They did it by saying "let's drive the infidels from Muslim land."This is perhaps a little too advanced for a 5th grader, but I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching kids that the world is, in fact, a rather complex place. I don't see how society benefits from raising more simple-minded people.

All Meglomaniacs need a rallying cry and an archenemy. They also tend to need poor, uneducated, disaffected young men for cannon fodder/suicide bombers. The US just makes for the biggest target on the world stage. Our support of "infidel regimes" is the excuse AQ uses for their actions but their ultimate goal is to be the ones in power in the middle east and to remake it into what they deem to be acceptable. If you hit the Saudis it does not make the same splash as hitting the US. It is the same concept as a Super Bowl ad in terms of fundraising and recruiting, - Go big or go home! What you have is people who want to revive the middle east of the Dark ages when Muslim culture there was in its ascendency and a bright spot in the world. If you give AQ everything they want in the middle east they will still fi and bnd a beef with the rest of the world and the US in particular until they are the ones "on top" again. Ultimately it is about power, they want it, we have it. What they fail to realize is that it is our way of life, freedom and apple pie that has allowed us to be where we are on the world stage. The other thing they fail to realize is that we will bring ourselves down in time, all empires do.

In the meantime, the other thing they forgot, we will hunt you down and kill you......because we can.

We may indeed eventually bring ourselves down....but it won't be against a third world country led by a bunch of religious fanatics......or a bunch of religious fanatics led by a third world country.

We are not the USSR, which was brought to it's knees by these idiots..... this is the United States of America...and no matter what  our detractors, both here and abroad, want to say about us we are still the greatest force for good the modern world has known. 

Left Brain - 2013-03-24 11:25 PM

trinnas - 2013-03-24 6:04 AM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:16 PM

scorpio516 - 2013-03-23 7:46 PM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:04 AM

Many historians believe the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they believed the U.S. was preparing to enter WWII anyway in the near-term and made a strategic calculation to strike us pre-emptively. I don't see how that dishonors the people who died on that day.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

 

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

Many do, and I am going to say with 100% confidence that I know many more military historians than you do And I'm not saying that like it's a good thing...And as far as the "they attacked us because they hate our way of life" refrain - AQ really doesn't care how Americans live their lives. Do they find our way of life vulgar and decadent? Absolutely. But UBL's motives for founding AQ, which have been articulated loudly, publicy, and repeatedly, is that the U.S. is the enemy because we provide backing to two infidel regimes that are currently occupying, in their mind, Muslim holy land - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are the three holiest sites in Islam. AQ believes these sites are being corrupted by the U.S.-sustained Israeli and Saudi governments. They have articulated this over, and over, and over again. And they actually laugh at us when we say they attacked us because they "hate our way of life/freedom/whatever." Bin Laden actually directly addressed this in an interview before his death and retorted "if that is the case, how come we didn't attack Sweden then?" Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence to achieve political ends. All terrorist organizations have an ideology and political goals - that's what distinguishes a terrorist group from a good old-fashioned criminal organization. Often their political goals are a bit, well, crazy, but they pretty much all have clearly articulated political goals. That is how they attract membership and financial support. That's how Al-Qaida grew to what it was in 2000-2001 - they didn't recruit donors and people by saying "let's destroy freedom and apple pie!" They did it by saying "let's drive the infidels from Muslim land."This is perhaps a little too advanced for a 5th grader, but I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching kids that the world is, in fact, a rather complex place. I don't see how society benefits from raising more simple-minded people.

All Meglomaniacs need a rallying cry and an archenemy. They also tend to need poor, uneducated, disaffected young men for cannon fodder/suicide bombers. The US just makes for the biggest target on the world stage. Our support of "infidel regimes" is the excuse AQ uses for their actions but their ultimate goal is to be the ones in power in the middle east and to remake it into what they deem to be acceptable. If you hit the Saudis it does not make the same splash as hitting the US. It is the same concept as a Super Bowl ad in terms of fundraising and recruiting, - Go big or go home! What you have is people who want to revive the middle east of the Dark ages when Muslim culture there was in its ascendency and a bright spot in the world. If you give AQ everything they want in the middle east they will still fi and bnd a beef with the rest of the world and the US in particular until they are the ones "on top" again. Ultimately it is about power, they want it, we have it. What they fail to realize is that it is our way of life, freedom and apple pie that has allowed us to be where we are on the world stage. The other thing they fail to realize is that we will bring ourselves down in time, all empires do.

In the meantime, the other thing they forgot, we will hunt you down and kill you......because we can.

We may indeed eventually bring ourselves down....but it won't be against a third world country led by a bunch of religious fanatics......or a bunch of religious fanatics led by a third world country.

We are not the USSR, which was brought to it's knees by these idiots..... this is the United States of America...and no matter what  our detractors, both here and abroad, want to say about us we are still the greatest force for good the modern world has known. 

I'd say there are a few in this country. 

Without their war with Afghanistan the USSR would have survived much longer.....and who can say how long, maybe even today.  What is important, is that AQ and the mughadeen believed they helped cause the collapse of the USSR (and they did), and that gave them wind to believe they could do the same with the U.S. 

Not so much.

KateTri1 - 2013-03-24 11:29 PM

Left Brain - 2013-03-24 11:25 PM

trinnas - 2013-03-24 6:04 AM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:16 PM

scorpio516 - 2013-03-23 7:46 PM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:04 AM

Many historians believe the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they believed the U.S. was preparing to enter WWII anyway in the near-term and made a strategic calculation to strike us pre-emptively. I don't see how that dishonors the people who died on that day.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

 

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

Many do, and I am going to say with 100% confidence that I know many more military historians than you do And I'm not saying that like it's a good thing...And as far as the "they attacked us because they hate our way of life" refrain - AQ really doesn't care how Americans live their lives. Do they find our way of life vulgar and decadent? Absolutely. But UBL's motives for founding AQ, which have been articulated loudly, publicy, and repeatedly, is that the U.S. is the enemy because we provide backing to two infidel regimes that are currently occupying, in their mind, Muslim holy land - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are the three holiest sites in Islam. AQ believes these sites are being corrupted by the U.S.-sustained Israeli and Saudi governments. They have articulated this over, and over, and over again. And they actually laugh at us when we say they attacked us because they "hate our way of life/freedom/whatever." Bin Laden actually directly addressed this in an interview before his death and retorted "if that is the case, how come we didn't attack Sweden then?" Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence to achieve political ends. All terrorist organizations have an ideology and political goals - that's what distinguishes a terrorist group from a good old-fashioned criminal organization. Often their political goals are a bit, well, crazy, but they pretty much all have clearly articulated political goals. That is how they attract membership and financial support. That's how Al-Qaida grew to what it was in 2000-2001 - they didn't recruit donors and people by saying "let's destroy freedom and apple pie!" They did it by saying "let's drive the infidels from Muslim land."This is perhaps a little too advanced for a 5th grader, but I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching kids that the world is, in fact, a rather complex place. I don't see how society benefits from raising more simple-minded people.

All Meglomaniacs need a rallying cry and an archenemy. They also tend to need poor, uneducated, disaffected young men for cannon fodder/suicide bombers. The US just makes for the biggest target on the world stage. Our support of "infidel regimes" is the excuse AQ uses for their actions but their ultimate goal is to be the ones in power in the middle east and to remake it into what they deem to be acceptable. If you hit the Saudis it does not make the same splash as hitting the US. It is the same concept as a Super Bowl ad in terms of fundraising and recruiting, - Go big or go home! What you have is people who want to revive the middle east of the Dark ages when Muslim culture there was in its ascendency and a bright spot in the world. If you give AQ everything they want in the middle east they will still fi and bnd a beef with the rest of the world and the US in particular until they are the ones "on top" again. Ultimately it is about power, they want it, we have it. What they fail to realize is that it is our way of life, freedom and apple pie that has allowed us to be where we are on the world stage. The other thing they fail to realize is that we will bring ourselves down in time, all empires do.

In the meantime, the other thing they forgot, we will hunt you down and kill you......because we can.

We may indeed eventually bring ourselves down....but it won't be against a third world country led by a bunch of religious fanatics......or a bunch of religious fanatics led by a third world country.

We are not the USSR, which was brought to it's knees by these idiots..... this is the United States of America...and no matter what  our detractors, both here and abroad, want to say about us we are still the greatest force for good the modern world has known. 

I'd say there are a few in this country. 

Of course, Kate......but it's the same as it alway has been in this country......the "few" are just that.  They get a voice because our constitution affords them a voice....but they don't make policy, no matter what yiou hear.  Policy is set by the majority...as always.

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 9:16 PM

scorpio516 - 2013-03-23 7:46 PM

UrsusAdiposimus - 2013-03-23 10:04 AM

Many historians believe the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because they believed the U.S. was preparing to enter WWII anyway in the near-term and made a strategic calculation to strike us pre-emptively. I don't see how that dishonors the people who died on that day.

I don't know any historians who don't believe that

However, you could also say that WWII in the Pacific only started because US Commodore Perry forced open Japan in 1853-54.

 

(The US's forcible opening of Japan toppled the Tokugawa shogunate through the Meiji Restoration/Revolution, which ended 150 years of peace and restored the emperor to head of state.  The forcible trade we did westernized the country, and the islands did not have the natural resources to support this.  Korea was annexed in 1895.  Parts of Siberia in 1905.  Manchuria in 1931.  Then they invaded China in 37.)

Many do, and I am going to say with 100% confidence that I know many more military historians than you do And I'm not saying that like it's a good thing... And as far as the "they attacked us because they hate our way of life" refrain - AQ really doesn't care how Americans live their lives. Do they find our way of life vulgar and decadent? Absolutely. But UBL's motives for founding AQ, which have been articulated loudly, publicy, and repeatedly, is that the U.S. is the enemy because we provide backing to two infidel regimes that are currently occupying, in their mind, Muslim holy land - Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem are the three holiest sites in Islam. AQ believes these sites are being corrupted by the U.S.-sustained Israeli and Saudi governments. They have articulated this over, and over, and over again. And they actually laugh at us when we say they attacked us because they "hate our way of life/freedom/whatever." Bin Laden actually directly addressed this in an interview before his death and retorted "if that is the case, how come we didn't attack Sweden then?" Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence to achieve political ends. All terrorist organizations have an ideology and political goals - that's what distinguishes a terrorist group from a good old-fashioned criminal organization. Often their political goals are a bit, well, crazy, but they pretty much all have clearly articulated political goals. That is how they attract membership and financial support. That's how Al-Qaida grew to what it was in 2000-2001 - they didn't recruit donors and people by saying "let's destroy freedom and apple pie!" They did it by saying "let's drive the infidels from Muslim land." This is perhaps a little too advanced for a 5th grader, bhatut I don't think it's ever to early to start teaching kids that the world is, in fact, a rather complex place. I don't see how society benefits from raising more simple-minded people.

Five years ago I decided that I would read everything I could get my hands on regarding the lead up to 9/11 and our response.  I don't know how many books I read, and I'm too lazy to put this lap top down and walk upstairs to count. 

Here's what I do know.....I have also read extensively about WWII, in particular the Pacific theater because my Grandpa fought there.  Reading about AQ and our wars in the Middle East is a pain in the arse.....the history is just not settled......if you think it is, you need to read more.