Learn me on why training should not be done in Z3

I'm no expert...at all.  But I was listening to a podcast and this came up this morning!  Z2 is the fat burning aerobic zone...however Z3 is the anaerobic zone - here you will give your cardiovascular system a real workout.  This trainer recommends both - so intervals I suppose. 

you need to train more in zone2 for the longer distance such as an IM.  I don't like to train that slow either but I am finding myself improving quite a bit and when I do hit zone3 zone4 I can go longer now.

For HIM distance I trained in the upper part of zone 2 just below zone 3 it seems.  

IM training my HR is around 140-150 for zone2 HIM training I was 150-160.  For my HIMs I stayed about 160-165.  Haven't done the IM yet but I figure I will stay 145 at the best I can for it.

As you train you improve - that's the point of training - your lactate threshold improves, the max HR (which isn't really absolute max either) moves and so do your zones. And anyway, zones are at best guesstimates - see my reply in other thread of today.

BR

 I'm not sure if that table corresponds with running as well as cycling?

You don't run in zone 3 often because it is a risk reward thing. Higher risk of injury/more recovery time for limited benefits. If you are going to take those risks, you run zone 4 or 5 which gives greater benefit. Otherwise you run zone 2 which carries almost the same benefits of zone 3, but with easier recovery which allows you to run higher volume.

I don't see my LT improving.  Last year my LT field test was 180.  This year it is still 180.  However, my pace is much faster.

Another thing you could consider is looking at zones from a pace standpoint, as well.  Just as power changes on the bike with training, and so our zones change to reflect of what we're currently capable, paces change running.  So, one could reasonably look at zones as describing HR zones and percentages of "max" or as zones of power output (which is pace - or perhaps "grade adjusted pace" if you want to get all pedantic) on the run.

HR is HR, so those zones don't change - you'll just (hopefully) run a bit faster in each with training.  It should not be entirely different than the changes you'd see using pace (from a race or TT), but I found that the two did not completely overlap for me.  My pace shot up over the winter with a heavy run focus - slightly more than if I just looked at pace in a HR zone.

Could also be that I just learned to suffer with a gladder heart. 

Anyway, not a huge difference, but another way to look at it.  Which zone you train in is, as have been said well above, more about the race you're training for.  I'm just commenting on the zones proper...

Good luck!

Matt 

that is improvement, the actual HR doesn't move, but the pace you can maintain at that HR changes.

I agree that it's an improvement.  However, will the LT eventually shift like he said?  I'm assuming it will one day as I get older.

That is a good point, and it is also important to note that the whole thing is a sliding scale, not distinct zones. the very top of zone 2 is pretty much equivalent to the very bottom of zone 3.

Going from untrained to some regular training, yes, it can move a bit. Then it will be rather steady. It may lower as one gets older (even with continued training), but this tends to be rather gradual over a long time.

For HIM, I train most of the time in Z3. Z4 is race pace or slighter faster and Z5 is anaerobic. Z3 is a great place to train for the HIM for me, both on the run and bike.

From doing all this Z3 training, I'm faster than ever in the bike and run, so clearly it's not as bad as it's bad out to be.

I think some people confuse this stay away from Z3 idea from confusing IM or pure marathon training with shorter distances. If you're truly in Z3, it gets harder to put up big miles in training without overdoing it (like a 100 mile bike ride or 24 mile training run), so you necessarily have to do more Z2 work for those long races to get the volume in.

The other part of it is if i'm running 40 mpw it becomes much more difficult to do 34 miles of zone 3 work and 6 miles of zone 4/5 work than it is to do 34 miles of zone 2 work and 6 miles of zone 4/5 work. More likely to get hurt and more likely to compromise my threshold and speed work. Now as shane mentioned this may not apply at all to marathon training as you probably arent doing much speed work.

This is mostly it, but your max really won't change if you calculate it correctly. It's called max for a reason. If your max is moving, it's your own error for not pushing hard enough in your testing. But your heart really does have a max rate at which it can beat. And it'll decrease as you age.

Your resting heart rate WILL change (lower) as your fitness improves. This gives you a new "Heart Rate Reserve" number (your fixed max minus your resting rate). The most effective way to calculate your zones is to use that HRR number.

From there, it's important to think differently than most of us have been taught to think.

Simply stated, the more time you spend in your Z2 zone, the more efficient (faster) you'll get within that zone. This is flipped from how we usually train. Normally, we want to have a certain pace feel more manageable, so we run that pace more often and hope our heart will catch up. That won't work as quickly (and you'll be more prone to injury in the process) as letting the paces come to your zone will.

1. Properly test for your max and your lactate heart rates. A number of field tests exist, or you can pay somebody to get really scientific about it.

2. Give yourself 4 weeks. Don't let yourself run anything that pulls you out of your Z2.  Regardless of how slow you feel when you start, even if you have to walk, keep yourself in Z2. If you stray into Z3, you're moving closer to an anaerobic workout and you've stopped training your heart to become more efficient at its aerobic capacity. There's nothing wrong with that, per se. It's still training gains. But you'll be best served by improving your aerobic zone. Frankly, your anaerobic zones see results pretty quickly. This is where the "train mostly slow, sometimes fast" mantra comes from. You don't need as much training in the Z3 or Z4 range as you do in the Z2 range. That's good, as it puts more strain on your muscular system and the injuries start showing up quicker if you do too much in your anaerobic zones.

3. Within a relatively short amount of time, you'll see your paces increasing within that zone. You'll also notice that you can run for longer periods of time within that zone and at those improved paces.

Then ... when you need to really fire the burners (for a 5k or 10k, for instance), you'll have a lot more power for those shorter distance races.  

What scale are you using that has Z5 at anaerobic and Z4 as race effort for a HIM?