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2013-05-07 7:28 PM
in reply to: #4732218


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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?

I ride long+hard on Sat and run long+hard on Sun.

 

Yes, I run on tired legs on Sun. It's hard. Sometimes VERY hard.

 

But I don't use that as an excuse to cut short the midweek workouts. Yes, ideally, I'd mix it up so the longer run was in the middle of the week, but at the same time, being able to HTFU through back to back long runs gives a very good training stimulus. It's slightly different than a faster midweek run, but for sure, it's an awesome training stimulus, and I think if used properly is no worse than doing it midweek, as you really work on your long-term aerobic capacity (at slight cost of speed.)

 

Either way, AGers really dont' have to overthink it. Your overall training volume will be more important than any placement of the workouts by a huge margin. As long as you put in the increasing volume, you're good to go, even at the top of the AG.



2013-05-07 9:24 PM
in reply to: #4731595

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?
metafizx - 2013-05-07 1:41 PM

hmmm...I'm one of the "old school" sat long bike and sun long run...

this guy (link below) says it's not a good idea ..what's your thoughts?

http://www.endurancenation.us/blog/training/stop-running-long-on-sunday/



I don't do it with my clients if their schedule allows it. Typically I'll do their long runs Wed or Thurs with their long bikes Sat or Sun.

2013-05-07 9:30 PM
in reply to: #4731595

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?

I would love to run long on a different day than after my long bike but time for me as a lot of others is the biggest factor. I have read other articles to ride long on Sat and than run long on monday or sorts but for most we have something that gets in the way but pays for those shoes, bikes, clothing, etc. Hmmm maybe I should win the lottery lol.

But it is a good article and maybe next year for training I will modify my program to do just that and see if I can maintain it. 

Thanks for the article.

2013-05-07 10:35 PM
in reply to: #4731629

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?
wgraves7582 - 2013-05-07 1:51 PM

Well in a perfect world I would have time to a long run mid-week and long ride weekend or opposite - but that is not how my life is currently.  I actually do a Recovery Ride after a Long Run in the afternoon just to get fresh for the upcoming week.

You run on tired legs during the race so why not prepare yourself for that.  If I was marathon training I would do it differently with more emphasis on the run.

 

Because it promotes bad form, which breaks down efficient running, which causes injury. 

2013-05-08 7:24 AM
in reply to: #4732230

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?
tri808 - 2013-05-07 6:56 PM
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-07 1:38 PM

It's not just the EN guys that share that philosophy.  Pretty much every coach worth a darn shares that philosophy.

It really isn't debatable.  You're more rested/recovered during the weekdays... pretty much regardless of intensity... than you are trying to follow up a long run after a five hour bike ride the day before.

My schedule looks like this for the week.

M: Swim, Run

T: Bike, Run

W: Bike (AM), Swim

Th: Long Run

F: Swim, Bike

Sat: Run

Sun: Long Bike

So I don't two-a-day my long run day and I don't run the day before.  I will also have 30+ hours between my last leg workout (AM bike on Wed) and my long run.  I would not have the same quality long run if it was done the day after a 4-5 hour bike ride.  Contrary to what you or anyone wants to believe - you're not running on anything remotely close to fresh legs in your scenario.  You might be successful in what you're doing but I'd submit and pretty much guarantee you'd be more successful moving your long run to midweek.

Can you please give me the details of my scenario.  I'd be interested to know.

ETA: And since I'm running on such trashed legs consistantly around 15-45 seconds above marathon pace, at what pace would you suggest I be running my long runs if I were to be so much more fresh?

Your scenario???  Running long after biking long.  I see you're being difficult just to be difficult.

Do you really think basic human physiology doesn't apply to you?  Congrats on being The One.



Edited by GMAN 19030 2013-05-08 7:26 AM
2013-05-08 8:12 AM
in reply to: #4732678

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-08 7:24 AM
tri808 - 2013-05-07 6:56 PM
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-07 1:38 PM

It's not just the EN guys that share that philosophy.  Pretty much every coach worth a darn shares that philosophy.

It really isn't debatable.  You're more rested/recovered during the weekdays... pretty much regardless of intensity... than you are trying to follow up a long run after a five hour bike ride the day before.

My schedule looks like this for the week.

M: Swim, Run

T: Bike, Run

W: Bike (AM), Swim

Th: Long Run

F: Swim, Bike

Sat: Run

Sun: Long Bike

So I don't two-a-day my long run day and I don't run the day before.  I will also have 30+ hours between my last leg workout (AM bike on Wed) and my long run.  I would not have the same quality long run if it was done the day after a 4-5 hour bike ride.  Contrary to what you or anyone wants to believe - you're not running on anything remotely close to fresh legs in your scenario.  You might be successful in what you're doing but I'd submit and pretty much guarantee you'd be more successful moving your long run to midweek.

Can you please give me the details of my scenario.  I'd be interested to know.

ETA: And since I'm running on such trashed legs consistantly around 15-45 seconds above marathon pace, at what pace would you suggest I be running my long runs if I were to be so much more fresh?

Your scenario???  Running long after biking long.  I see you're being difficult just to be difficult.

Do you really think basic human physiology doesn't apply to you?  Congrats on being The One.

I don't think the point was to be difficult, but to help keep people actually thinking about what they're doing. Otherwise they'll just go from one seemingly automatic schedule to another without really looking at the whole situation. I would agree that most would likely benefit from having the long run mid-week, but to look at the schedule to make sure it does work out that way instead of just assuming it does by focusing only on the long ride. I don't see a substantial difference between having my LR on Wed or Sun because of all the bike work I'd been doing Mon & Tue when compared to the long ride on Sat. I'm certainly not typical, but that was kind of the point being made.



2013-05-08 9:39 AM
in reply to: #4731595

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?

With a typical work-week and a family, getting in a mid-week long run can be a challenge. My current schedule has me doing a 3-4 hour ride on Saturday, followed with a 4-mile run off the bike. Sunday has me generally doing a longer swim and a long run (currently 1:40, or around 14 miles).

As a teacher I will have my summer schedule more flexible and I will be talking with my coach about mixing up my training, probably doing a midweek long run (at that point in IM training, probably 16+), plus a longish run on Sunday (10-12).

When marathon training I felt that the real important run was a mid week medium-long run (around 14-15 miles), plus a weekend long run (18-22). I'm currently doing Wednesday intervals at the track, which is generally a total of 9-11 miles on Wednesday and the longer run on Sunday, plus 2-3 other shorter runs during the remainder of the week. 

Currently, I don't feel like the ride on Saturday is negatively affecting my run on Sunday. However, I've developed a decent base over the years and seem to recover quite quickly, and I think that helps.



Edited by natethomas2000 2013-05-08 9:42 AM
2013-05-08 10:26 AM
in reply to: #4731595

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?

Work constraints keep me from going long during the week.  My normal weekend routine is a long run early Saturday morning, with a swim after lunch and then a long ride after Church on Sunday.  When weather is an issue and I can't train outside, then I'll hit the gym instead.

I understand the arguments about the alleged benefits of running on tired legs, but at my age with increased recovery needs and with my history of injuries, it works better for me to run first then ride the next day.

All that being said, I mostly do sprint tri's so, my 'long' workouts may not be as much as others do.  During tri season my long runs will be anywhere between 4 and 8 miles and my long rides are between 20 and 40 miles.

Mark

 

 

2013-05-08 10:46 AM
in reply to: #4731595

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?

Throwing my two cents in...I currently work my week to get my long run in on Wednesday.  Most days, I can get it right after work. My wife just knows that I'm going to be late that evening.  No big deal...she is a saint.

This morning, I got up early to do it.  14 miles, done by 6:30.  It was an amazing run.  Not that I would want to do it every week...but it was special (and beautiful) this morning.

The EN philosophy is about making a schedule that works for you.  If you CAN put the long run on Wednesday...why not do it?  My weekend is big on the bike both days.

2013-05-08 12:56 PM
in reply to: #4732752

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Subject: RE: stop running long on sunday ?
brigby1 - 2013-05-08 3:12 AM

I don't think the point was to be difficult, but to help keep people actually thinking about what they're doing. Otherwise they'll just go from one seemingly automatic schedule to another without really looking at the whole situation. I would agree that most would likely benefit from having the long run mid-week, but to look at the schedule to make sure it does work out that way instead of just assuming it does by focusing only on the long ride. I don't see a substantial difference between having my LR on Wed or Sun because of all the bike work I'd been doing Mon & Tue when compared to the long ride on Sat. I'm certainly not typical, but that was kind of the point being made.

Thank you Ben.

I challenged GMAN to give the details of my training because clearly he was basing his advice on 2 out of the 7 days of my training.  Again making the assumption that somehow my mid week training has much less training stress where the long run would fit there better. 

Training is not just about the long ride and long run.  It's a culmination of all your training, Monday-Sunday, week after week.  The goal should be to structure your training to maximize fitness gains that comes from the total body of work.  If that means moving your long run to another day, so be it.  But there shouldn't be any reason that your long run needs to be the best workout of your week and that you should sacrifice other workouts for it.  If you can get through your long run maintaining your pace, effort, and form...and can recover from it enough to hit your next workout...then I don't see any reason to make adjustments unless you have determined your mid week workouts need some shaking up.

Given that GMAN has no information on the other 5 days of my training, I don't see how he can make that determination for me, or why it's not debatable.

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