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2013-05-10 1:26 PM
in reply to: #4736844

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 1:25 PM

Brock Samson - 2013-05-10 10:46 AM
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 8:30 AM

DanielG - 2013-05-10 6:41 AM
jmk-brooklyn - 2013-05-10 7:27 AM
DanielG - 2013-05-10 3:10 AM
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-09 10:27 PM
DanielG - 2013-05-09 5:30 PM
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-09 3:57 PMDoesn't this go against keeping religion out of schools and such??
It's not the staff, it's the students.
. Does it matter?
You're kidding, right? Your idea about "keeping religion out of schools" is wrong. 1A "...prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion..." So the court cases have come to the conclusion the school staff cannot originate religious speech unless it's within the lesson plan of a class. It goes on with "...abridging the freedom of speech,..." and this, along with the cannot impeded the free exercise of religion means the students (who are NOT government employees) have the right to make their banners within obscenity laws. Yes it matters. The staff are considered "the government" so are severely restricted in being able to originate any religious discussion. The students still have wide latitude with freedom of speech.
It was an honest question. Why the need to be condescending and rude?
Was not and am not being condescending or rude. I asked if the poster was kidding (which might be the case) and then explained what the current state of court cases is in reference to "keeping religion out of schools", that statement being inconsistent with the 1st Amendment, current cases as well as the case under discussion. Then went on to say that "the government" includes the staff of the school but does not include the students, who still have freedom of both exercise of religion as well as speech on their side for such banners. Neither condescending nor rude.

No, I was not kidding.  I would have had a winkey-smiley or used the sarc font if I was.

It was a serious question.

Since I'm borderline agnostic/atheist that minimally attends a Lutheran congregation (now for sure I'll be slammed and hated) and have always had an internal battle with the separation of church and state, I felt it to be a legitimate question.

Students allowed "free speech" on government-funded school grounds should be considered, too.  If they want to express that information at a private business (and if the private business allows it), that's their choice, but allowing to express that information on school grounds should be reconsidered, shouldn't it??

It depends on the mood I'm in.  If I went to that school and encountered this scenario and, depending on the mood I was in, I would either say "Big deal ... let the kids be.  What's the problem?", or would probably react with "I'm offended since I don't believe and your treading on my freedom".  The latter is playing devil's advocate.

Some people may think this is wrong.  Some may not.  As I have stated earlier, it's an internal struggle.

 

Regarding your question about "doesn't this go against keeping religion out of schools and such?" it's not a bad question and I'm sure it's one that many people have based upon their understanding of the state and meaning of the 1st Amendment. 

My guess is your basis for asking this question is your assumption, like many if not most peoples assumption, that the Constitution requires "the separation of church and State."  This phrase of course is not contained in the Constitution, nor is it the "test" used by the Supreme Court to determine the validity of religious entanglements on the public level.

The portion of the protections in the U.S. Constitution regarding religion and religious freedom are two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause.

The notion of the separation of Church and State came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson as president to a church after the church made an inquiry regarding the Federal governments potential involvement into a day of thanksgiving.  There is a strong argument to be made upon reading the letter from the Church to Jefferson and then Jeffersons reply that our modern use of the phrase separation of church and state is historically inaccurate and being used out of context.

The history of the Religion clauses of the Constitution is also interesting and may give insight into what the founders/framers believed the Religion clauses of the 1st amendment meant.  In Madison's first draft of the Religion clause of the 1st Amendment it read: "the civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship;nor shall any national religion be established,nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience, in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed."  After committee meetings the proposed language was altered to read: "No religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed."

ON the debates on the Religion clauses Madsion said, as evidenced in the minutes of the committee debates "apprehended the meanings of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience."

Ultimately the language we now know as the religion clauses of the 1st amendment were agreed upon.

The above is simply an attempt to demonstrate that the notion of "separation of church and state." does not come from the Constitution, nor does it come from the primary author of the Bill of Rights, and arguably its modern interpretation of the phrase may be contextually inaccurate.

 

All that being said, there is a danger in replacing the actual language of the constitution with the idea contained in a private letter authored several years after the passage of the Bill of Rights.  First even if our modern interpretation of the term is correct, the term itself represents the personal opinion of one person.  Second, when referring to Constitutional Rights we should at all times actually use the language of the Constitution.  Third, I believe the term "separation of church and state" imposes a higher or stricter requirement not envisioned by the actual constitution.  Forth, I am of the opinion that there is an actual effort, by some, to actively use this language in place of the actual language in the constitution in order to mis-lead people as to the actual rights contained in the Constitution.  That is, if you control language you control thought.  Most people now talk about "the separation of church and state." rather than the establishment clause.  While the difference may be subtle the effect isn't.  The simple fact is that one is contained in the Constitution, while the other does not.

So I think given the general confusion on the issue of the term "separation of church and state" and the confusion as to what that term even means, your question is one that many people would have.

. Extremely well stated and I thank this for being posted.


Long quotes should be tried by SCOTUS



2013-05-10 1:33 PM
in reply to: #4734565

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
Thanks Brock.....the wrong information given out in this thread was starting to give me a headache.
2013-05-10 1:35 PM
in reply to: #4736845

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
bradleyd3 - 2013-05-10 1:26 PMLong quotes should be tried by SCOTUS
. I'm offended that your avatar is appearing 90 deg. turned clockwise on my iPad. The cheerleaders at the H.S. told you to do this, didn't they??
2013-05-10 1:42 PM
in reply to: #4736844

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners

1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 11:25 AM Extremely well stated and I thank this for being posted.

And without being condescending.  Goes to show you that you can be informative and knowledgeable and share information without putting people down.

2013-05-10 1:48 PM
in reply to: #4736861

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 1:35 PM

bradleyd3 - 2013-05-10 1:26 PMLong quotes should be tried by SCOTUS
. I'm offended that your avatar is appearing 90 deg. turned clockwise on my iPad. The cheerleaders at the H.S. told you to do this, didn't they??


It's my freedom of speech, protected by 1A to place my profile pic in any form or fashion that I wish. If you don't like it, either turn your head or look away.

2013-05-10 1:58 PM
in reply to: #4736880

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners

bradleyd3 - 2013-05-10 1:48 PM
1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 1:35 PM
bradleyd3 - 2013-05-10 1:26 PMLong quotes should be tried by SCOTUS
. I'm offended that your avatar is appearing 90 deg. turned clockwise on my iPad. The cheerleaders at the H.S. told you to do this, didn't they??
It's my freedom of speech, protected by 1A to place my profile pic in any form or fashion that I wish. If you don't like it, either turn your head or look away.

I will pray for you.



2013-05-10 2:55 PM
in reply to: #4734565

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
I loved the sign!
2013-05-10 3:02 PM
in reply to: #4736870

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
Kido - 2013-05-10 1:42 PM

1stTimeTri - 2013-05-10 11:25 AM Extremely well stated and I thank this for being posted.

And without being condescending.  Goes to show you that you can be informative and knowledgeable and share information without putting people down.

. Totally agree. It's something that I have been trying to work at, but I digress since I feel like I'm hijacking this thread.
2013-05-10 10:24 PM
in reply to: #4734565

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
I am trying to remember the prayer we said before basketball games. Catholic high school circa 1979. Can anyone help?

It went something like:

Oh Lord, Hear our prayer. Help us to play the game and play it fair......something something.... To conquer, win, or if to lose, not to rival or abuse. Something something.

Anyone that can fill in the blanks or a variation thereof?
2013-05-11 6:10 AM
in reply to: #4737428

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners

bootygirl - 2013-05-10 11:24 PM I am trying to remember the prayer we said before basketball games. Catholic high school circa 1979. Can anyone help?

It went something like:

Oh Lord, Hear our prayer. Help us to play the game and play it fair......something something.... To conquer, win, or if to lose, not to rival or abuse. Something something.

Anyone that can fill in the blanks or a variation thereof?

 

I went to a public high school.  In the locker room before games, the coach would huddle us up and lead us in a prayer.  I think it was the Our Father.  I thought it was b.s. then, and I think it's b.s. now.  I'm disappointed I didn't have the brass ones to stand up and point out how wrong it was at that time.  I honestly don't think the coach in my case, or the cheerleaders in to a lesser extent in this case, understood my (and others' I'm sure) point of view.

2013-05-23 1:41 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

bootygirl - 2013-05-10 11:24 PM I am trying to remember the prayer we said before basketball games. Catholic high school circa 1979. Can anyone help?

It went something like:

Oh Lord, Hear our prayer. Help us to play the game and play it fair......something something.... To conquer, win, or if to lose, not to rival or abuse. Something something.

Anyone that can fill in the blanks or a variation thereof?

 

I went to a public high school.  In the locker room before games, the coach would huddle us up and lead us in a prayer.  I think it was the Our Father.  I thought it was b.s. then, and I think it's b.s. now.  I'm disappointed I didn't have the brass ones to stand up and point out how wrong it was at that time.  I honestly don't think the coach in my case, or the cheerleaders in to a lesser extent in this case, understood my (and others' I'm sure) point of view.

 

but do you understand their view? Just because one person disagrees with it does not mean everyone has to disagree with it.

I am guessing that you did not have to participate and perhaps the coach might have done something different had he known, but to call someone's faith BS and state that is wrong is not cool either.



2013-05-27 11:05 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners
Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

bootygirl - 2013-05-10 11:24 PM I am trying to remember the prayer we said before basketball games. Catholic high school circa 1979. Can anyone help?

It went something like:

Oh Lord, Hear our prayer. Help us to play the game and play it fair......something something.... To conquer, win, or if to lose, not to rival or abuse. Something something.

Anyone that can fill in the blanks or a variation thereof?

 

I went to a public high school.  In the locker room before games, the coach would huddle us up and lead us in a prayer.  I think it was the Our Father.  I thought it was b.s. then, and I think it's b.s. now.  I'm disappointed I didn't have the brass ones to stand up and point out how wrong it was at that time.  I honestly don't think the coach in my case, or the cheerleaders in to a lesser extent in this case, understood my (and others' I'm sure) point of view.

 

but do you understand their view? Just because one person disagrees with it does not mean everyone has to disagree with it.

I am guessing that you did not have to participate and perhaps the coach might have done something different had he known, but to call someone's faith BS and state that is wrong is not cool either.




Perhaps I can be a little more clear...I believe it was the wrong setting. Basketball is a team sport. You've got an imposing adult figure (the coach) who is telling you to bring it in. All players are in. There is coaching going on. All hands are brought in for a pre-game bonding moment. The coaching leads directly to a, "Now we bow our heads..." The kid like me bows his head in respect despite the fact he does not agree with what's transpiring. For me to have taken my hand out as all hands are in during a prayer is the quickest way to being labeled, "not a team player." Can you understand that point of view? It just seems to me there are universal messages that can be taught without invoking something as personal as religious faith...especially in a public school setting.

Now, as for you saying I called someone's faith "BS," and, "wrong," please re-examine my post. I never said such a thing. What I called "B.S." and "wrong" was the time and place of the recitation of the religious prayer.
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