Modified Swim Starts at Certain Ironman Races (Page 4)

Beach 2 Battleship has a mass start for the full iron distance, but that race is capped at 800 athletes.

The B2B Half, with 1700 athletes, starts an hour later than the full and has wave starts.

I disagree it's not about liability containment as they already have that.  People have died, gotten run over by water craft, damaged by official motorcycles, etc and not one person has ever successfully 'blamed' WTC in court.  This is about getting more people to sign up for races.  Make it more palatable to the 70% that make up the field and you're golden.

Wave starts = larger field = more money

I could care less about the 'purity' of IM and the mass start.  I can say that I have been more beat up at a TTP sprint than I have at any of the IM races I have participated in.  Self-seeding already occurs at every IM mass start and people now, just like later, will put themselves in harms way...on purpose.  If you don't want the possibility of getting trampled, then sit on the shore and wait 2 minutes or wade in the water and when the gun goes off swim the opposite way for 1 min and then back to the start.  You have a warm-up AND no thrashing. 

Overall thought:  They are addressing a problem that does not exist.  Swim deaths are so infinitesimally small and have not been linked to mass starts that they are addressing the wrong thing.  It's purely a show of safety, nothing more.  Think TSA.

My concerns:
- The rest rafts will cause more, not less, people to not train for the distance.  People will develop a raft to raft strategy of getting through the swim thus making it more, not less, dangerous.  I will bet $100 that the first 100 people in line at IM KY are there because they want more time, not because they want clean water for a faster time

- Seeded swim starts will cause more people to get 'beat up' during the swim.  Right now when I line up in a big race I don't know if the person next to me is a 1:00 swimmer or a 2:00 swimmer.  So I am cautious.  If you have seeded yourself in the 1:00 swimmer corral you will get beat up more because everyone will assume you are a good swimmer and can 'handle' yourself accordingly. 

- You can rest on the bike and run, why not the swim:  If you were going a century ride and you had to take a break after the first 5 miles would you say you were ready to ride the entire century?  It's about being prepared for the distance.  If you have a problem, out of the ordinary, then there are kayaks randomly around for the random issue. 

- For the "Why do you care?  It doesn't affect you" crowd:  Yes...it does affect me.  Who do you think will have to pay for all of this extra unnecessary water personnel and anchored rest rafts?  Not WTC.  They will pass the costs down to us, the athletes.  All of us.  And as WTC does, independent triathlons do.  So the cost for the Rev3 races, etc will also go up.  All, mainly because of a perceived issue that could be fixed very readily. 

What would I do?
Require...yes require a swim test of each and every athlete that does a WTC race.  (I'd exempt the pros)  You already have to come early to sign in 2 days ahead of time (1 day for 70.3).  So you get to do a swim test.  No wetsuit no aids.  Just you, goggles, suit and swim cap.  If can even be done in a pool with the lane lines take out.  That prevents the "but what about conditions" complaints.  10 minutes continuous swimming or a set distance of like 500 meters.  You don't make it, then you forfeit your entry for that race.  When you pass the swim test then you get put into a database for X years.  Let's say 3 for numbers sake.  No need to retest for another (3) years.

The above takes care of 99.5% of the proposed problem, is actual safety and switches the responsibility where it should be...the athlete. 

I would not do it through USAT because WTC is a private company and operates under it's own rules.

Fred - as far as I've ever read, or heard about, the deaths were to people who were NEVER described as undertrained for any part of the triathlon.  That being said, I have no idea what the new swim starts will accomplish. 

And, as we seem to both agree on.........I will be stunned if there are less deaths in the swim than we already have seen.  People are going to die.  A few are going to die during a triathlon....that number will not change.

Like I said, I'm mostly just making discussion, not argument, because I really couldn't care less what they do with the swim.  I'll show up, follow the rules, and go on with my life.......or die while I'm at it. 

I have an idea. Instead of having to plow through 2500 age group swimmers to get to a distressed swimmer they will only need to get through 300-500. Also it will be much easier to spot a distressed swimmer then search through the masses. Also those floating rafts will make it much easier to do CPR if need be then do do it on a kayak. Those rafts will be more accessible then the shore. As for the deaths, I feel over the next few years we will hear more of more successful rescues then in years past. 

I hope you are right....but that's all pretty much speculation. (except for the easier CPR on a platform, as I've said....not sure which thread though at this point)  Uh....but ONLY if it's a true platform....CPR on a soft raft is still a long shot.

I think that the changes are put in place to create more revenue.  I think everyone understands that there will be deaths in a triathlon swim.  In fact.....there are deaths from drowning in just about every swimming hole in the country.

And that is speculation too, but if you look at the registration numbers for this year it isn't since they didn't increase. 

I think everyone is jumping on WTC way too early for this and need to give it a chance before being critical. Like I said earlier in this thread, when a problem of safety in this world exists and measurements are taken to improve safety or the loss of life it is generally positively accepted....unless you are dealing with the selfish nature of triathletes. 

I'm not a WTC detractor....in fact, I enjoy their races and think they generally do a great job.  And again, I'm not arguing your points so much as making discussion.  Most of my issue stems from all kinds of entities these days taking "pre-emptive" safety measures that don't add up to a hill of beans.  And, to me, the problem is that the measures are made for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with safety since nobody knows what the problem is to begin with. 

This I know......people die swimming.  People will continue to die swimming.  Now we all have to change how we do things in order to appear to have more safety.  Let's have this discussion in 3 or 4 years.....I bet the death rates are the same because they are so low now.

If the rest rafts prevent one drowning or death good.

When you think about it you can stop in the run and the ride at any time.  The swim no.  It;s just evening it out a bit. 

If you got a bad cramp and had that opportunity to stretch it at one of the rest rafts it could save your day.  So many get pulled out because of a cramp or here in Australia to get that pesky jellyfish off your face!

Life isn't fair.

Louisville doesn't get the last person in the water until almost 7:45.  You still only get until midnight...

I'd also like to point out the 17 hour cutoff will be 17 hours from when you start and not at 12:00am (unless you start at exactly 7:00am).  Let's say you enter the water at 6:45am.  You have until 11:45pm to finish or you will be automatically DQ'd.  You won't get the extra 15 minutes to finish using that example.

I like they're doing that because it should eliminate weaker and slower swimmers/racers from incorrectly (and purposely) seeding themselves with the faster folks in hopes of getting more time to finish the race.  It won't matter, so don't do it.

In nearly all the races each participant is wearign a flotation device - the wetsuit.  You absolutely can just stop and stand in the water and you'll float in a wetsuit.  Or you can roll on your back and stare at the sky while you get your breath back.

People make it sound like if you stop swimming you'll sink to the bottom.

I think these changes suck and devalue the sport and the achievement. 

Fight for a spot to start by 7?  Really?  I'm not sure you'll have to fight anyone and you'll actually just have to walk to the swim start at the right time with little or no fisticuffs required.

BUt then you have races like IMSTG in 2012 where the conditions turned 180 in seconds and you had the chaos that happened. Even some of the best and strongest swimmers were swallowing lots of water, kayaks were being overturned, buoys were being blow away, what if that happened again? Could some of these resting rafts help endangered swimmers? Would it be easier to help rescue swimmers with more personal on site? Would they benefit or struggle with everyone starting at different times?

For anyone who has never been scuba diving, you have to wear a weight belt in addition to the tank you are wearing.  Why?  Because you can't get under the water without the extra weight.  Anyone wearing a wetsuit only needs to roll over on their back.  They will never sink.  Even in choppy conditions, while they may get splashed a bit, they will just float along.  I guess I just don't get panicking over crowded starts or choppy water if you are wearing a full body floatie.

Now if you're having a heart attack, it might be a bit more dangerous than huffing and puffing up a steep incline on your bike, but I'd prefer to avoid both. 

I still say they should know your swim time when you exit the water.  If you seeded in front to pad more swim time than the 2:20 cutoff, you can't continue.

I thought about this quite a bit during the last day or so.  Like I said, I'm not a WTC detractor....I like them and I like their races.  I think what I object to is the "dumbing down" of everything in our society. 

I spent alot of years duck hunting......most winters we ran from Canada to Mexicio with the Fall flights.  There was one spot that was an absolute favorite of mine.  It was a wild place that was hell to get into....but the payoff was spectacular as waves of ducks piled into it.  Some days we'd just sit and watch.  One year when we got there they had put in a couple new roads and 3 parking lots....it was easy to get to....and lots of people did.  Within 2 or 3 years the hunting there sucked.

I have seen the same thing happen with alot of my favorite things and places......usually in the name of "safety" or "convenience".  I'm not getting on that bus....I think it's crap.

There should be places that are hard and dangerous to get to.  There should be things that are dangerous and hard to do.  If we get rid of all the wild places and crazy things then what's left?  It's not really a life I have any interest in.  If you want to do a triathlon then get in the damn water and swim.  Then get out there and mix it up with the rest of the like minded people.  If that scares you.....no problem, I get it, there are things I won't do (jumping out of an airplane that is not on fire comes to mind).....so do pool swim triathlons.

The lowest common denominator should never be a goal in anything.

So for a freak occurrence that resulted in no fatalities and everything panning out just peachy you want to add layer upon layer of useless 'safety' perception that adds cost and no added safety? 

At Galway 70.3 they shortened the swim because of 10 foot waves and 30 mph winds.  If you're not comfortable swimming, call it a day and walk away.  Everyone survived and continued upon their merry way. I'm an adult taught swimmer who actually tends to sink a bit in a wetsuit.  I've spent the time to be ready just like others should. 

Once again, the infinitesimal chance that something will happen does not change with any of these measures.  What it does do is give a perception of safety which will bring more athletes and more revenue to WTC.  So Kudos to them for marketing it well.  (No sarcasm)

This has been one of my main questions about all this.  Where does WTC say that the person who starts, as in the example above, at 6:45am will only have until 11:45pm to finish?  I haven't seen that anywhere yet.