General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Why do I fall apart during my long runs? Rss Feed  
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2013-06-03 12:59 AM

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Subject: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Had an 18 mile run last week. Ran a mile, walked a minute for 2 miles, then ran 4 minutes walked 1 minute until mile 13.5, then walked 4.5 miles.

This week I ran a mile, walked a minute for 12 miles, then 4/1 for 5 miles, then walked 3 for 20 miles.

By the time I start walking I'm doing 22 minutes per mile and swaying all over the place.

This week: 132 oz of water, 6 Gu Brew tablets, 1 gel before run + 4 more at the start of each hour.

First 12 miles: 12:35 minutes per mile.

13:41 minutes per mile for miles 12-17.

Average for miles 0-17 12:58 minutes per mile.

I drank 8.5 lbs of water and ended up 3.5 lbs heavier than when I started.

Last week I had gels even more frequently, every 4 miles, which is what I usually do (and with the same results).

Yesterday I biked 100 miles then ran 6 miles without stopping at a 12:46 minutes per mile pace.

I have no more long runs and an IM coming up on 6/23, so I pretty much can only come up with theories and then cover them on race day, i.e. 1 salt tablet + 1 glucose tablet every half an hour during race day, which I've taken before and I know won't hurt, but won't know if they'll help either, but might as well since I have no more long runs to test theories out.

I usually have no problem running without stopping after biking but the distances are shorter, but I had already been working out biking 8 hours before I started running yesterday. Last week I biked 7 hours 20 minutes then ran 5 miles at a 11:11 pace.

I did 2 HIMs in which I didn't walk (other than to get water down), one with a pace of 12:41 and another with a pace of 12:28.

Ideas, suggestions? I wear a hat, and a Desoto skin cooler shirts and thigh coverings.

Thanks!


2013-06-03 4:55 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
That water consumption could very well be the cause of the problem... it's simply too much! The problem with drinking that much water is that you will end up completed diluted of electrolytes.
2013-06-03 5:35 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
I drink to thirst, though, and I just can't run thirsty, can't stand that feeling. So maybe double up on the electrolytes?

I have some theories of course but don't want to sway people

By the way, in winter I may go 8 miles without a drop, but that 20 mile run was in 90-100 degree weather.

Edited by GatorDeb 2013-06-03 5:42 AM
2013-06-03 6:14 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
That kind of tells me you started off either dehydrated or that you have diluted your body of electrolytes to start with... water is great, but you will lose significant amount of electrolytes through perspiration.

You mentioned that you feel unstable (swaying) when walking during the run... Right before you start walking, slow down your running pace gradually instead of going from full run to full walk, that will help with the transition. And when you walk, make sure you slow enough to be able to recover and walk properly. This is a problem I commonly see... walking too fast will put strain on your calfs and quads, and will make you feel unstable. Same thing goes for when you get back to running again, gradually increase pace until you run at goal pace.
2013-06-03 6:32 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
I would guess:

1) Too much water
2) Too many calories at one time - try half a gel each 30 minutes
3) Running too long/hard based on your fitness
4) Fatigue
5) Time of day may be an issue (based on temp)

Shane
2013-06-03 6:43 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Originally posted by gsmacleod

I would guess:

1) Too much water
2) Too many calories at one time - try half a gel each 30 minutes
3) Running too long/hard based on your fitness
4) Fatigue
5) Time of day may be an issue (based on temp)

Shane


+1 all of those in combination can really do a number on fitness and performance.


2013-06-03 7:10 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?

Originally posted by gsmacleod I would guess: 1) Too much water 2) Too many calories at one time - try half a gel each 30 minutes 3) Running too long/hard based on your fitness 4) Fatigue 5) Time of day may be an issue (based on temp) Shane

x2

At this late point in the game I'd suggest more of a survival strategy.  Maybe try something that seems way too easy, like a 2 min run/2 min walk, but that at least has a chance to get you to the finish line.  All the disussion about hydration, nutrition and clothing is just ignoring the fact that your fitness is lacking.

Mark

2013-06-03 8:45 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Originally posted by GatorDeb

This week: 132 oz of water, 6 Gu Brew tablets, 1 gel before run + 4 more at the start of each hour.



I'll second some folks here - too much water and too much nutrition. I count 8, 16 oz water bottles, and 17 gels? Others much more astute with regards to digestive function can weigh in but I'm not sure your body can process that level of hydration and nutrition.
2013-06-03 8:48 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
What was your longest run before this one?  Do you always feel this way during long runs?
2013-06-03 8:51 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
2013-06-03 9:29 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
I was wondering "How do you carry all that water"? I usually go for a long trail run and carry water with me on all my runs and carry 2 x 10oz bottles on my hydration belt. On my longest runs (18 miles so far), I've used water fountains along the trail on top of that. At the most, I'm guessing I drink no more than 30oz for a 18 mile run.

Might be that you're pushing yourself too hard. You might want to pace yourself. At that distance, you should be able to talk while you're running and not run out of breath.


2013-06-03 10:18 AM
in reply to: Tmanishere

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
4 gels for the run, not at a time, 1 per hour.

I did loops around the house

I have done bunch of 7, 9, then 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 mile runs.

I can run 13 miles without issues. One week I'll go 2 miles and then have to switch (1 gel per 40 mins) then the next I'll run 12 before switching (1 gel per 60 mins). It's just so inconsistent.
2013-06-03 11:12 AM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
As others have said it is probably a combination of hydration, and electrolyte imbalance brought on by the rising temperatures.

I run long runs with a 3 bottle fuel belt. I carry water in two and an electrolyte solution in the other. I drink 2 to 1 obviously.

I also have laid out a 9 mile course that I pass by one central point 2 times every 9 miles. I stash a small soft side cooler off the road in the deep grass with cold water and electrolyte solution to replenish dwindling supplies.

The biggest detriment I have found to my own performance is ambient conditions. Two weeks ago I ran 14 miles non stop and felt good doing it. This past week I ran 10 (and I ran them slower, and had to stop a time or two along the way). Difference was about 10 degrees temperature, 25% humidity difference, and I had a steady 10 mph wind on my 14 mile run and hardly anything on my 10 miler.

Heat generation/dissipation will have dramatic effects on performance and unfortunately the bigger athletes generate more heat.

Despite all the internal grumblings I am satisfied that no matter the distance....I didn't stop until it was done.
2013-06-03 11:29 AM
in reply to: trisuppo

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Originally posted by trisuppo

Originally posted by GatorDeb

This week: 132 oz of water, 6 Gu Brew tablets, 1 gel before run + 4 more at the start of each hour.



I'll second some folks here - too much water and too much nutrition. I count 8, 16 oz water bottles, and 17 gels? Others much more astute with regards to digestive function can weigh in but I'm not sure your body can process that level of hydration and nutrition.

I think she meant that 1 at the start of each hour for 4 hours. to me, for IM training, that isn't enough. particularly if you are coming off a long bike the day before where your glycogen stores are already depleted. for IM, I try for 200 cals an hour on the run.
2013-06-03 11:49 AM
in reply to: Daffodil

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
I think you are looking for an answer on the nutrition side, but I think you should listen to the people saying you are not running enough to sustain your pacing/run/walk strategy

By your BT logs you averaged 18miles per week this year ?
That isn't much for an IM run.
2013-06-03 12:23 PM
in reply to: GatorDeb

Subject: ...
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2013-06-03 12:46 PM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?

Originally posted by GatorDeb 4 gels for the run, not at a time, 1 per hour. I did loops around the house I have done bunch of 7, 9, then 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 mile runs. I can run 13 miles without issues. One week I'll go 2 miles and then have to switch (1 gel per 40 mins) then the next I'll run 12 before switching (1 gel per 60 mins). It's just so inconsistent.

How did those go versus this one? Pace, nutrition, water, etc?

2013-06-03 1:35 PM
in reply to: GatorDeb

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Originally posted by GatorDeb

4 gels for the run, not at a time, 1 per hour.

I did loops around the house

I have done bunch of 7, 9, then 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 mile runs.

I can run 13 miles without issues. One week I'll go 2 miles and then have to switch (1 gel per 40 mins) then the next I'll run 12 before switching (1 gel per 60 mins). It's just so inconsistent.


My mistake on the gels...I misunderstood what you wrote.

Dug into your logs. Looks like you recently really ramped up the distance of some of your runs. Since the New year (through end of May) you are running an average of 10.6x per month or 2.5x per week. In that time you have 7 runs greater than 10 miles (0 in January, 0 in February, 1 in March, 3 in April and 3 in May). Averaging 67.6 miles per month. If you take out the long runs your average mileage is 48.1 miles per month. Also, no consistent running base in 2012.

Continuing, the last two weeks (your two longest runs this year) were proceeded on Friday by rides of 30 and 35 miles and Saturday by rides of 94 and 100 and runs of 5 and 6 (respectively for the last two weeks).

Your water consumption and overall fitness level (running base???) are what I would focus on here.

Finally 13 miles run by itself is one thing. Cycling 135 miles over Friday and Saturday and then running 26 miles over saturday and Sunday are another.
2013-06-03 2:55 PM
in reply to: trisuppo

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
My main background comes from distance running and not triathlon, here is my two cents. Even though nutrition may have been a contributing factor the main reason that you are struggling on long runs is your lack of running fitness.

Running an average of less than three times a week will NOT prepare you to run a marathon. Unfortunately, with the race less than three weeks away you will not be able to significantly improve your running fitness before the IM. Did you follow a plan? If so you need to find a new coach/plan for your next IM training cycle. To run a marathon you should have been running five times a week and averaging a MINIMUM of 40 mpw. Running just three times a week would make it hard to finish a stand-alone marathon, after riding for 112 miles it will be a struggle for you to keep a steady pace on the run and finish.

2013-06-03 3:08 PM
in reply to: rick4657

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
She has a coach who designs her plan.
2013-06-03 3:17 PM
in reply to: KathyG

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
Originally posted by KathyG

She has a coach who designs her plan.


Then she needs to have a serious discussion with her coach. Either the plan does not include enough running or she is not following the plan.


2013-06-03 3:25 PM
in reply to: rick4657

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
uh oh, a feel another monster thread coming on

gatordeb. the reason you are falling apart on your long run is because you do not have the fitness to complete it. You need to run more, more often, and more consistently to accomplish your goals. x10000000 you need a new coach and/or plan, or need to follow your coach's plan correctly if it did include more running.
2013-06-03 3:43 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?

Originally posted by dmiller5 uh oh, a feel another monster thread coming on gatordeb. the reason you are falling apart on your long run is because you do not have the fitness to complete it. You need to run more, more often, and more consistently to accomplish your goals. x10000000 you need a new coach and/or plan, or need to follow your coach's plan correctly if it did include more running.

why do people even bother to give this piece of advice any more???  but i will sit back and enjoy the thread anyway.

2013-06-03 3:53 PM
in reply to: mehaner

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
this is what I would do

reduce liquid intake. My goal would be to lose less than 2% body weight but certainly not gain. it sounds like you are almost taking double what you should be taking
In the scenario you gave, If you drank half of what you did your weight by be down by 1lb which sounds about right

I would take 1 GU brew tablet per bottle of water. This will give you something like 350g of sodium per 20-24oz of liquid. + the stuff in the gels.
I think you will reduce your risk of hyponetremia

You need to adjust your walk/run ratio because your run fitness is probably not there.

I believe your problem is that if you walk too much you will not make the IM cut-off time

When you come off the bike, figure out how much time you need and do the maximum walking in order to meet that time

Good luck.
2013-06-03 3:54 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Why do I fall apart during my long runs?
This same thread is posted on ST, they are saying the same thing. gatordeb - if you need to ask TWO online forums for advice then it is time to fire your coach.

Edited by rick4657 2013-06-03 3:54 PM
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