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2013-06-07 12:22 PM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up)

NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.


2013-06-07 12:31 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Who is "they" and why would they want to do that?

Just FYI - I don't buy guns from a web site, never would.  I don't post on CL, never would.  I don't use facebook, twitter, instagram, etc.  My wife does, I think she's crazy.  So you see, I've got a bit of your same paranoia....but it's not the govt. I fear.  I worry about criminals getting their hands on my information, or reading that we are out of town, or any number of things about my family that may be posted.  I try to be careful about things I post, but I do put some information out there on sites such as this.....because, again, this site is not that important to anyone as far as mining information.

Your privacy is your responsibilty......you can't blame anyone else for information of yours that is floating around or being compiled by someone. (BTW - there are companies who's sole purpose is to build a file on you......the govt. looks like a bunch of imbeciles compared to what those companies have)

2013-06-07 12:44 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-06/meet-prism-us-984xn-us-gov...

Here's an article with a little more info on the PRISM leak yesterday.
2013-06-07 12:46 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Who is "they" and why would they want to do that?

Just FYI - I don't buy guns from a web site, never would.  I don't post on CL, never would.  I don't use facebook, twitter, instagram, etc.  My wife does, I think she's crazy.  So you see, I've got a bit of your same paranoia....but it's not the govt. I fear.  I worry about criminals getting their hands on my information, or reading that we are out of town, or any number of things about my family that may be posted.  I try to be careful about things I post, but I do put some information out there on sites such as this.....because, again, this site is not that important to anyone as far as mining information.

Your privacy is your responsibilty......you can't blame anyone else for information of yours that is floating around or being compiled by someone. (BTW - there are companies who's sole purpose is to build a file on you......the govt. looks like a bunch of imbeciles compared to what those companies have)




"they" would be the government. They would want to do that in order to confiscate your guns (according to most people who are opposed to the national gun registry).
2013-06-07 1:50 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Who is "they" and why would they want to do that?

Just FYI - I don't buy guns from a web site, never would.  I don't post on CL, never would.  I don't use facebook, twitter, instagram, etc.  My wife does, I think she's crazy.  So you see, I've got a bit of your same paranoia....but it's not the govt. I fear.  I worry about criminals getting their hands on my information, or reading that we are out of town, or any number of things about my family that may be posted.  I try to be careful about things I post, but I do put some information out there on sites such as this.....because, again, this site is not that important to anyone as far as mining information.

Your privacy is your responsibilty......you can't blame anyone else for information of yours that is floating around or being compiled by someone. (BTW - there are companies who's sole purpose is to build a file on you......the govt. looks like a bunch of imbeciles compared to what those companies have)

"they" would be the government. They would want to do that in order to confiscate your guns (according to most people who are opposed to the national gun registry).

I don't want a national gun registry because the law doesn't provide for it and it would do nothing to stop the problem of people doing stupid things with guns.  However, that is not the case with using the already established databases to thwart terrorism.  I'm for catching bad guys, not harrassing good guys.  I've got to say, I don't see any good guys being harrassed here.  I see some good guys worried about being harrassed....but that's a different deal.  Show me where your rights have been violated in this deal.  Confiscating my guns (if I have any Laughing  ) would be violating my rights.

2013-06-07 1:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

 

More confusion for you, Tony.  No, I do not need a warrant for phone records.  Most providers want a court order, which is WAY down the scale from a search warrant and doesn't require probable cause.  I can get phone records to further an investigation.  Yes, there are some companies that have given us records without a court order (just flash the badge as you say).....they really can do whatever they want with the records.....they belong to the provider.

And I'm sorry, but phone records are NOT conversations.  And conversations aren't nearly as protected as you may think.  I can record ANY conversation that I am a part of, whether you know I am or not...because, again, I also "own" the content of that conversation (for lack of a better term).

Your privacy is your responsibility. 

Let me see if I have this right. There is no such thing as a requirement for "probable cause" in securing the phone records of people who are not even suspected of committing any crime? So what exactly does the 4th amendment protect? The video below shows the additional issues with this. Basically, the NSA could spy on every congressman, senator, and SC judge and gather whatever harmful information they want to use against them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eITxTUMaWecI lived near Ft Meade during high school so I knew plenty of NSA folks even back in the 90s they were saying they were nervous about how much they were skirting the line when listening to phone calls.

 

What is it about your phone "records" that you think is private?  Obviously your conversations are, but the numbers you call are kept on record by the phone provider....THOSE RECORDS BELONG TO THE PROVIDER.....they can give them to whoever they wish.  Most of them require a court order as a means of showing their customer that they had no choice.  A COURT ORDER does not require probable cause as a SEARCH WARRANT does.

There is absolutely nothing new here.  The trash you put out on the curb....we can pick it up to look for evidence of crimes....we don't need a warrant.  The video of you walking down the street that was taken by a camera on the side of a building....I don't need a warrant to get that video.  I don't even need a court order if the owner will just give it to me (the overwhelming majority of time it happens that way).  Yes, it's your image.....it doesn't belong to you.

Look, you can blame the govt. or whatever you want.....the fact of the matter is, we all gave up most of our privacy years ago.....right about the time we started using credit cards, and cell phones, and computers, and every other item that has your information tied to it.  You no longer exclusively own that information....you gave it away!  Big Brother didn't have to do anything but sit back and watch.

The funny thing is... EVERYTHING has a user agreement these days, and everyone consents to this type of stuff without ever reading it. Personal information has always been mined for information and sold to other companies to sell to you... and you agree to that.

I'm not saying I approve of the government doing it... but what I am saying is the American citizen does not have a clue what they agree to or authorize on a daily basis just from user agreements that they don't bother to read... myself included. I've been burned a couple of times because a lot of companies authorize auto renewal in their agreement and I get billed without my knowledge for it again because I "agreed" to it. I at least learned where that check box is buried.



2013-06-07 1:55 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by

I don't want a national gun registry because the law doesn't provide for it and it would do nothing to stop the problem of people doing stupid things with guns.  However, that is not the case with using the already established databases to thwart terrorism.  I'm for catching bad guys, not harrassing good guys.  I've got to say, I don't see any good guys being harrassed here.  I see some good guys worried about being harrassed....but that's a different deal.  Show me where your rights have been violated in this deal.  Confiscating my guns (if I have any Laughing  ) would be violating my rights.

The ACLU has sued over this... all the way to the Supreme Court, but they lost because they could not prove their records were part of the information... and the government refused to tell them if their information was a part of it because it was "classified information".

There is something very wrong with that.

2013-06-07 2:13 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

2013-06-07 2:16 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by

I don't want a national gun registry because the law doesn't provide for it and it would do nothing to stop the problem of people doing stupid things with guns.  However, that is not the case with using the already established databases to thwart terrorism.  I'm for catching bad guys, not harrassing good guys.  I've got to say, I don't see any good guys being harrassed here.  I see some good guys worried about being harrassed....but that's a different deal.  Show me where your rights have been violated in this deal.  Confiscating my guns (if I have any Laughing  ) would be violating my rights.

The ACLU has sued over this... all the way to the Supreme Court, but they lost because they could not prove their records were part of the information... and the government refused to tell them if their information was a part of it because it was "classified information".

There is something very wrong with that.

Maybe.

There are national security issues....or at the very least there is the possibility of national security issues. 

Overall, I'm pretty happy with what our govt. agencies have done since 9/11 to help keep the country free of more terrorism.  I'm not naive enough to think it will never happen again, but there is no doubt that terror operations have been stopped because of the efforts of some of these govt. agencies.....that's a good thing.

2013-06-07 2:30 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 



We get the public stuff that you post. It's the person-to-person messages that if I understand LB's position on this, there are those who think that by sending those person-to-person messages through say Gmail or over Verizon's text message system, you are using a 3rd party and therefore not having a private conversation.


Just so we're clear. They have and are listening/watching videos/chats/etc on everything. So what your statement suggests Lisa is that if we don't want the NSA to hear everything we say or do on electronic media, we should do it face to face only.

2013-06-07 2:34 PM
in reply to: GomesBolt

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Not a problem to me.  I have Sprint.


2013-06-07 2:35 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by

I don't want a national gun registry because the law doesn't provide for it and it would do nothing to stop the problem of people doing stupid things with guns.  However, that is not the case with using the already established databases to thwart terrorism.  I'm for catching bad guys, not harrassing good guys.  I've got to say, I don't see any good guys being harrassed here.  I see some good guys worried about being harrassed....but that's a different deal.  Show me where your rights have been violated in this deal.  Confiscating my guns (if I have any Laughing  ) would be violating my rights.

The ACLU has sued over this... all the way to the Supreme Court, but they lost because they could not prove their records were part of the information... and the government refused to tell them if their information was a part of it because it was "classified information".

There is something very wrong with that.

Maybe.

There are national security issues....or at the very least there is the possibility of national security issues. 

Overall, I'm pretty happy with what our govt. agencies have done since 9/11 to help keep the country free of more terrorism.  I'm not naive enough to think it will never happen again, but there is no doubt that terror operations have been stopped because of the efforts of some of these govt. agencies.....that's a good thing.

This issue of electronic privacy will be around for a long time to come. I do understand there are problems,and if the government deals with them, that is one thing. But over 200 years self government has also shown the government rarely stops at what it was doing in the first place. they cross lines many times.

If you have the right of regress against your government, and the government has the right to refuse you, then you no longer have the right of regress. That isn't right. And then for the Judicial branch to back that up... that isn't right either. The suit I understand... in order to sue someone, you have to be able to show you were harmed... and they can't do that without the one that they allege is harming them tells them so... but it also just does not sit right.

2013-06-07 2:37 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

 

The difference is Google does not have the power to take away your rights and property and deny your freedom... the Government does. That's the point. Retail is one thing, the government is another.... the Constitution was not written to limit commercial powers, or guarantee consumer rights.



Edited by powerman 2013-06-07 2:39 PM
2013-06-07 2:40 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by Kido Not a problem to me.  I have Sprint.

I am crying laughing--FTW!

2013-06-07 2:41 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 




Hey now this is no place for women! (I'm kidding obviously)

That's an interesting point, but I think the two are different. If I go on say trisports.com and look up a bike I will see that bike advertised on BT or some other websites that use google ads. What I'm talking about though is you go and post in the gun thread "Hey I got this sweet new AR-15, check it out". With the access that the NSA seems to have they could theoretically write down on the list "Lisac957 owns an AR-15". They'd be able to trace your IP address and eventually end up with your home address. Then in the super conspiracy theorist world, when they come to confiscate everyone's weapons, they know that Lisac has an AR-15 and they could try to collect it.

Obviously, this is all hypothetical and i was mostly trying to show LB his two conflicting viewpoints (in my mind anyway) between gun control and natoinal security.
2013-06-07 2:45 PM
in reply to: switch

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Kido Not a problem to me.  I have Sprint.

I am crying laughing--FTW!

Surely you do not think Verizon is the only carrier doing this? Wink



2013-06-07 2:48 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Kido

Not a problem to me.  I have Sprint.


I'm switching to Vigin mobile on Monday!


I should say that I had already purchased my phone online before this was brought up.
2013-06-07 3:03 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by powerman
Originally posted by

I don't want a national gun registry because the law doesn't provide for it and it would do nothing to stop the problem of people doing stupid things with guns.  However, that is not the case with using the already established databases to thwart terrorism.  I'm for catching bad guys, not harrassing good guys.  I've got to say, I don't see any good guys being harrassed here.  I see some good guys worried about being harrassed....but that's a different deal.  Show me where your rights have been violated in this deal.  Confiscating my guns (if I have any Laughing  ) would be violating my rights.

The ACLU has sued over this... all the way to the Supreme Court, but they lost because they could not prove their records were part of the information... and the government refused to tell them if their information was a part of it because it was "classified information".

There is something very wrong with that.

Maybe.

There are national security issues....or at the very least there is the possibility of national security issues. 

Overall, I'm pretty happy with what our govt. agencies have done since 9/11 to help keep the country free of more terrorism.  I'm not naive enough to think it will never happen again, but there is no doubt that terror operations have been stopped because of the efforts of some of these govt. agencies.....that's a good thing.

This issue of electronic privacy will be around for a long time to come. I do understand there are problems,and if the government deals with them, that is one thing. But over 200 years self government has also shown the government rarely stops at what it was doing in the first place. they cross lines many times.

If you have the right of regress against your government, and the government has the right to refuse you, then you no longer have the right of regress. That isn't right. And then for the Judicial branch to back that up... that isn't right either. The suit I understand... in order to sue someone, you have to be able to show you were harmed... and they can't do that without the one that they allege is harming them tells them so... but it also just does not sit right.




That's why I thought the ACLU usually has a person they use for their case. i.e. Shannon Faulkner. In this case, they would just have to find one of 100,000,000 Verizon customers or twice that many across the 9 other entities they're getting data from.


I think the issue is that on the heels of the IRS targeting a particular group possibly with direction from the white house, we now see the problem with giving a government entity power to do something unconstitutional with this information that they are gathering.


I say this as my Pandora does a commercial about military loans for graduate school programs showing that they mined my preferences. But I trust that they still can't read my text messages to my wife.

2013-06-07 3:04 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

 

The difference is Google does not have the power to take away your rights and property and deny your freedom... the Government does. That's the point. Retail is one thing, the government is another.... the Constitution was not written to limit commercial powers, or guarantee consumer rights.



x2
2013-06-07 3:20 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Alpharetta, Georgia
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

Hey now this is no place for women! (I'm kidding obviously) That's an interesting point, but I think the two are different. If I go on say trisports.com and look up a bike I will see that bike advertised on BT or some other websites that use google ads. What I'm talking about though is you go and post in the gun thread "Hey I got this sweet new AR-15, check it out". With the access that the NSA seems to have they could theoretically write down on the list "Lisac957 owns an AR-15". They'd be able to trace your IP address and eventually end up with your home address. Then in the super conspiracy theorist world, when they come to confiscate everyone's weapons, they know that Lisac has an AR-15 and they could try to collect it. Obviously, this is all hypothetical and i was mostly trying to show LB his two conflicting viewpoints (in my mind anyway) between gun control and natoinal security.

Oh jeez I read this whole thread and didn't know it was about THIS. My bad.
But I still think if it's that sensitive of an issue to you or you are that paranoid, don't post it online?  

2013-06-07 3:25 PM
in reply to: GomesBolt

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

We get the public stuff that you post. It's the person-to-person messages that if I understand LB's position on this, there are those who think that by sending those person-to-person messages through say Gmail or over Verizon's text message system, you are using a 3rd party and therefore not having a private conversation.

Just so we're clear. They have and are listening/watching videos/chats/etc on everything. So what your statement suggests Lisa is that if we don't want the NSA to hear everything we say or do on electronic media, we should do it face to face only.

They aren't watching or listening to any private conversations/texts without a search warrant....that's just a load of crap.  

And no, you don't understand my position at all.  Using a 3rd party system to have a conversation has NEVER been part of anything I brought up....how did you even come up with that?  What I said, and Hook 'em confirmed with case law, is that information you give to a 3rd party is not protected..

Geez...pass the tinfoil!!!



2013-06-07 3:37 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

We get the public stuff that you post. It's the person-to-person messages that if I understand LB's position on this, there are those who think that by sending those person-to-person messages through say Gmail or over Verizon's text message system, you are using a 3rd party and therefore not having a private conversation.

Just so we're clear. They have and are listening/watching videos/chats/etc on everything. So what your statement suggests Lisa is that if we don't want the NSA to hear everything we say or do on electronic media, we should do it face to face only.

They aren't watching or listening to any private conversations/texts without a search warrant....that's just a load of crap.  

And no, you don't understand my position at all.  Using a 3rd party system to have a conversation has NEVER been part of anything I brought up....how did you even come up with that?  What I said, and Hook 'em confirmed with case law, is that information you give to a 3rd party is not protected..

Geez...pass the tinfoil!!!

Paulie hated phones.  He wouldn't have one in his house.

There were guys, that's all they did all day, was take care of Paulie's calls.

2013-06-07 3:51 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Kido
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

We get the public stuff that you post. It's the person-to-person messages that if I understand LB's position on this, there are those who think that by sending those person-to-person messages through say Gmail or over Verizon's text message system, you are using a 3rd party and therefore not having a private conversation.

Just so we're clear. They have and are listening/watching videos/chats/etc on everything. So what your statement suggests Lisa is that if we don't want the NSA to hear everything we say or do on electronic media, we should do it face to face only.

They aren't watching or listening to any private conversations/texts without a search warrant....that's just a load of crap.  

And no, you don't understand my position at all.  Using a 3rd party system to have a conversation has NEVER been part of anything I brought up....how did you even come up with that?  What I said, and Hook 'em confirmed with case law, is that information you give to a 3rd party is not protected..

Geez...pass the tinfoil!!!

Paulie hated phones.  He wouldn't have one in his house.

There were guys, that's all they did all day, was take care of Paulie's calls.

Unfortunately, the Boss rarely gets pinched because of his stupid acts.  Most of the time it is the stupid acts of those under him.

2013-06-07 4:54 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

 

More confusion for you, Tony.  No, I do not need a warrant for phone records.  Most providers want a court order, which is WAY down the scale from a search warrant and doesn't require probable cause.  I can get phone records to further an investigation.  Yes, there are some companies that have given us records without a court order (just flash the badge as you say).....they really can do whatever they want with the records.....they belong to the provider.

And I'm sorry, but phone records are NOT conversations.  And conversations aren't nearly as protected as you may think.  I can record ANY conversation that I am a part of, whether you know I am or not...because, again, I also "own" the content of that conversation (for lack of a better term).

Your privacy is your responsibility. 

Let me see if I have this right. There is no such thing as a requirement for "probable cause" in securing the phone records of people who are not even suspected of committing any crime? So what exactly does the 4th amendment protect? The video below shows the additional issues with this. Basically, the NSA could spy on every congressman, senator, and SC judge and gather whatever harmful information they want to use against them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eITxTUMaWecI lived near Ft Meade during high school so I knew plenty of NSA folks even back in the 90s they were saying they were nervous about how much they were skirting the line when listening to phone calls.

 

What is it about your phone "records" that you think is private?  Obviously your conversations are, but the numbers you call are kept on record by the phone provider....THOSE RECORDS BELONG TO THE PROVIDER.....they can give them to whoever they wish.  Most of them require a court order as a means of showing their customer that they had no choice.  A COURT ORDER does not require probable cause as a SEARCH WARRANT does.

There is absolutely nothing new here.  The trash you put out on the curb....we can pick it up to look for evidence of crimes....we don't need a warrant.  The video of you walking down the street that was taken by a camera on the side of a building....I don't need a warrant to get that video.  I don't even need a court order if the owner will just give it to me (the overwhelming majority of time it happens that way).  Yes, it's your image.....it doesn't belong to you.

Look, you can blame the govt. or whatever you want.....the fact of the matter is, we all gave up most of our privacy years ago.....right about the time we started using credit cards, and cell phones, and computers, and every other item that has your information tied to it.  You no longer exclusively own that information....you gave it away!  Big Brother didn't have to do anything but sit back and watch.

What about my voicemails?  Those recordings belong to the provider as well so can they give those to whoever they wish?  If not, how are they different than phone numbers?  Data is data and I've given it to the carrier in both instances.

I honestly don't know the answer, so I'm half being snarky and half curious. 

2013-06-07 8:02 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Tony - #1 I don't know of a provider that stores recordings of voice messages....and I've written search warrants or court orders for every provider that I know of.  #2 Most providers don't store text messages anymore either.  Some did for awhile, but we hammered them with search warrants for the texts and they quickly figured out it was not in their best interest to store them because of the cost of complying with the warrants....since they were under no obligation to store them, they quit.

Your biggest concern as far as search warrants, court orders, etc. for your text messages, voice mails, etc. is the very phone you carry around and do all of your conversing with....it's a computer....our forensic guys can get most of them out of your phone if we deem it necessary and can get a warrant for it....and in many cases, we don't need a warrant and can search it incident to arrest.

You all worry so much about the govt. and all the while you are your own worst enemies for your paranoia. And yeah, I'm being half snarky and half serious as well with the last comment.....you just have to figure out which half. Time to get the hat out! Laughing 

Like Hook 'em said, what WILL come out of all of this is supreme court decisions about all of the new technology once all of the lawsuits find their way.  We are working, for the most part, under laws and decisions that were made even before the internet was hatched by Al Gore.....it'll be interesting.

(I already know your name is Tony and you are from Nebraska..........it's only a matter of time before I'm breaking your door down, eh?)  Cool



Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-07 8:04 PM
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