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2013-06-08 10:57 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by JoshR Left Brain, how do you feel about this. (I made it up) NSA is using all of the information they have gathered through their massive spying program and have now created a National Gun Registry. Did you post on BT about your guns? They recorded it and pieced together your home address. Post on craigslist? They compiled that too. Order from a gun website? They have that info. Now they have a nice little gun registry.

Not to interrupt the bromance going on here, but this happens every day as-is.
Ever see a Google Ad for something you clicked on/shopped for recently or the tailored Facebook ads? They "recorded" information such as your click/shopping/browsing habits or what you post on your timeline/profile/location and are using it to advertise to you. It's nothing new.

If you don't want something public, you shouldn't post it anywhere online.
 

We get the public stuff that you post. It's the person-to-person messages that if I understand LB's position on this, there are those who think that by sending those person-to-person messages through say Gmail or over Verizon's text message system, you are using a 3rd party and therefore not having a private conversation.

Just so we're clear. They have and are listening/watching videos/chats/etc on everything. So what your statement suggests Lisa is that if we don't want the NSA to hear everything we say or do on electronic media, we should do it face to face only.

They aren't watching or listening to any private conversations/texts without a search warrant....that's just a load of crap.  

And no, you don't understand my position at all.  Using a 3rd party system to have a conversation has NEVER been part of anything I brought up....how did you even come up with that?  What I said, and Hook 'em confirmed with case law, is that information you give to a 3rd party is not protected..

Geez...pass the tinfoil!!!




Uh yes they are. Here are the ones they admitted to:
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/07/18831985-officials-...

Just let me ask you something LB, what would happen to me or you if I mistakenly broke into someone's home? Stole someones mail out of the box? Ran a stop sign? Shot someone? This is all unconstitutional and goes against everything we stand for. Well at least used to stand for.



2013-06-08 3:09 PM
in reply to: NXS

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.

2013-06-08 8:05 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
If they don't care about the data they are getting then why have they built the storage facility in Nevada that can hold more electronic data than we could ever imagine? I watch officials including Clapper lie during testimony, same for Holder and they will never be held accountable. I don't believe anything they say, I don't trust them, they are liars and should go to jail. This is like the old Soviets, keeping a file on their populace, just in case. I guess we just perfected their methodology.

This isn't politics, its the heart of who we are as a nation. I called my senators and rep. when they were voting on the original Patriot Act urging them to vote no. You see, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I can tell you what politicians and Fed. agencies will do with the power they have. They will abuse it 99% of the time and never be held accountable. Sadly once again they have proved me right. I have never been so ashamed of our nation, this is not what I thought we would leave our children.

Edited by NXS 2013-06-08 8:08 PM
2013-06-09 2:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whis...

Interview with the leaker.

Edited by JoshR 2013-06-09 3:09 PM
2013-06-10 11:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...


"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."


Edited by JoshR 2013-06-10 11:19 AM
2013-06-10 11:50 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by JoshR http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...
"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."

Just because this nut job says it, that doesn't make it so.  Is the technology there to do what he says?  Absolutely, it always has been.....is the govt. getting this information illegally, circumventing our court/legal system...I'd say the jury is still waaaaay out on that one. 

Snowden seems like a kook to me........we'll see.



2013-06-10 12:33 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.




That is all great until they make you are doing illegal. California is working hard to make a ton of law abiding citizens criminals over night just for owning something that was previously legal and is now not. Guess with all the data they have collected, they know right where to go to round up all these criminals.

You want everyone to give an inch to "protect us from terrorists" and we just need to trust that the government won't take a mile. I think we have seen plenty of evidence in the last two months that the government is taking their mile in more ways than one.

This is no different than what they are trying to do with gun control. Keep chipping away at it and eventually they will get where they want to be, and IMO anyone who is complacent in the chipping is part of the problem.
2013-06-10 12:40 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.

That is all great until they make you are doing illegal. California is working hard to make a ton of law abiding citizens criminals over night just for owning something that was previously legal and is now not. Guess with all the data they have collected, they know right where to go to round up all these criminals. You want everyone to give an inch to "protect us from terrorists" and we just need to trust that the government won't take a mile. I think we have seen plenty of evidence in the last two months that the government is taking their mile in more ways than one. This is no different than what they are trying to do with gun control. Keep chipping away at it and eventually they will get where they want to be, and IMO anyone who is complacent in the chipping is part of the problem.

Where?  So far I haven't seen where they have done anything outside of what the courts and federal judges said they could do.....that IS the way the system works, ya know?  I have seen where they admitted to mistakes and took the proper steps to report them.....but I haven't seen a SINGLE thing yet that says they were outside of the law.

I don't mean to rain on your parade Aaron....but apparently when you aren't looking LOTS of laws get passed making things illegal that were previously legal.....it's even been done before with assault rifles and magazines......wow, a lot of people sure went to jail over that one, huh?

Again....it's all alot of noise....in practice it doesn't affect our lives at all.....but it does give everyone something to whine about. 

 



Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-10 12:41 PM
2013-06-10 12:42 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by JoshR

http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...


"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."



Is there a defense out there like "I disclosed this confidential information because my agency was violating the civil rights of others and there was no way for me to report this through my chain of command without being sent to Gitmo without a trial."?

I look at this and Bradley Manning differently because Manning disclosed unrelated information because his rights were being violated. I think Snowden's defending the 4th amendment rights of privacy of others argument would have weight.

2013-06-10 12:51 PM
in reply to: GomesBolt

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds

Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by JoshR http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...
"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."
Is there a defense out there like "I disclosed this confidential information because my agency was violating the civil rights of others and there was no way for me to report this through my chain of command without being sent to Gitmo without a trial."? I look at this and Bradley Manning differently because Manning disclosed unrelated information because his rights were being violated. I think Snowden's defending the 4th amendment rights of privacy of others argument would have weight.

If all of the data collected was done within the scope and knowledge of the federal court system and our current laws, and it was part of a national security program that was also done in full view of Congress, and certainly had Congressional oversight, and the program was classified,  then Snowden is a traitor.....period. 

2013-06-10 1:00 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by JoshR http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...
"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."
Is there a defense out there like "I disclosed this confidential information because my agency was violating the civil rights of others and there was no way for me to report this through my chain of command without being sent to Gitmo without a trial."? I look at this and Bradley Manning differently because Manning disclosed unrelated information because his rights were being violated. I think Snowden's defending the 4th amendment rights of privacy of others argument would have weight.

If all of the data collected was done within the scope and knowledge of the federal court system and our current laws, and it was part of a national security program that was also done in full view of Congress, and certainly had Congressional oversight, and the program was classified,  then Snowden is a traitor.....period. 




You're entitled to your opinion. Snowden is entitled to his defense.

I'll make a wager with you. If this doesn't go to the Supreme Court, it'll be because of 1) a plea deal at a lower court or 2) because a lower court finds in-favor of Snowden or 3) Snowden stays in a non-extradition treaty country for the rest of his days. This is not a cut-and-dry case....Period.


2013-06-10 1:45 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.

That is all great until they make you are doing illegal. California is working hard to make a ton of law abiding citizens criminals over night just for owning something that was previously legal and is now not. Guess with all the data they have collected, they know right where to go to round up all these criminals. You want everyone to give an inch to "protect us from terrorists" and we just need to trust that the government won't take a mile. I think we have seen plenty of evidence in the last two months that the government is taking their mile in more ways than one. This is no different than what they are trying to do with gun control. Keep chipping away at it and eventually they will get where they want to be, and IMO anyone who is complacent in the chipping is part of the problem.

Where?  So far I haven't seen where they have done anything outside of what the courts and federal judges said they could do.....that IS the way the system works, ya know?  I have seen where they admitted to mistakes and took the proper steps to report them.....but I haven't seen a SINGLE thing yet that says they were outside of the law.

I don't mean to rain on your parade Aaron....but apparently when you aren't looking LOTS of laws get passed making things illegal that were previously legal.....it's even been done before with assault rifles and magazines......wow, a lot of people sure went to jail over that one, huh?

Again....it's all alot of noise....in practice it doesn't affect our lives at all.....but it does give everyone something to whine about. 

 




That may be the way the system is currently working but that is not how it is supposed to work nor how it was designed.

According to your posts as long as the judges and Congress are on board they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever laws they want cuz that is "how the system works".

But the system was not designed that way, the constitution is supposed to bestow very limited power from the people to the government, they don't get to do whatever they want, they get to do what they are assigned to do by the people thru the constitution.

IMO they have gone much too far in what they do.

(Oh and nice try with the previous assault weapon ban, you know full well there was a grandfather clause there and there is no such clause in the current laws being pushed in CA)
2013-06-10 1:54 PM
in reply to: GomesBolt

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by JoshR http://www.businessinsider.com/is-whistleblower-edward-snowden-a-he...
"...the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested [by the NSA] without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards."
Is there a defense out there like "I disclosed this confidential information because my agency was violating the civil rights of others and there was no way for me to report this through my chain of command without being sent to Gitmo without a trial."? I look at this and Bradley Manning differently because Manning disclosed unrelated information because his rights were being violated. I think Snowden's defending the 4th amendment rights of privacy of others argument would have weight.

If all of the data collected was done within the scope and knowledge of the federal court system and our current laws, and it was part of a national security program that was also done in full view of Congress, and certainly had Congressional oversight, and the program was classified,  then Snowden is a traitor.....period. 

You're entitled to your opinion. Snowden is entitled to his defense. I'll make a wager with you. If this doesn't go to the Supreme Court, it'll be because of 1) a plea deal at a lower court or 2) because a lower court finds in-favor of Snowden or 3) Snowden stays in a non-extradition treaty country for the rest of his days. This is not a cut-and-dry case....Period.

Wait....you'll make a wager with me and you get 3 possibles?  Nice........I should take you to Vegas. Laughing

2013-06-10 2:01 PM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.

That is all great until they make you are doing illegal. California is working hard to make a ton of law abiding citizens criminals over night just for owning something that was previously legal and is now not. Guess with all the data they have collected, they know right where to go to round up all these criminals. You want everyone to give an inch to "protect us from terrorists" and we just need to trust that the government won't take a mile. I think we have seen plenty of evidence in the last two months that the government is taking their mile in more ways than one. This is no different than what they are trying to do with gun control. Keep chipping away at it and eventually they will get where they want to be, and IMO anyone who is complacent in the chipping is part of the problem.

Where?  So far I haven't seen where they have done anything outside of what the courts and federal judges said they could do.....that IS the way the system works, ya know?  I have seen where they admitted to mistakes and took the proper steps to report them.....but I haven't seen a SINGLE thing yet that says they were outside of the law.

I don't mean to rain on your parade Aaron....but apparently when you aren't looking LOTS of laws get passed making things illegal that were previously legal.....it's even been done before with assault rifles and magazines......wow, a lot of people sure went to jail over that one, huh?

Again....it's all alot of noise....in practice it doesn't affect our lives at all.....but it does give everyone something to whine about. 

 

That may be the way the system is currently working but that is not how it is supposed to work nor how it was designed. According to your posts as long as the judges and Congress are on board they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever laws they want cuz that is "how the system works". But the system was not designed that way, the constitution is supposed to bestow very limited power from the people to the government, they don't get to do whatever they want, they get to do what they are assigned to do by the people thru the constitution. IMO they have gone much too far in what they do. (Oh and nice try with the previous assault weapon ban, you know full well there was a grandfather clause there and there is no such clause in the current laws being pushed in CA)

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.

2013-06-10 2:36 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by Aarondb4
Originally posted by Left Brain

I know of two instances in my career where a search warrant was served on the wrong house....it happens.  What I'm sayn gis that nobody is listening or looking at phone calls or e-mails of people who are not being investigated for terrorism or some other crime.....why would anyone waste the time to do that?  Who cares about the e-mails or conversations of people not involved in criminal activity?  Nobody.

I understand the point you are making, but from my view this is all politics.  I'm happy to hear that the mistakes were reported to the judges who issued the orders....that's how it should be.  Are they making mistakes that are not getting reported?  I don't know.  What I do know, from my experience, is that they don't care about information that is not part of an investigation.....nobody is listening to you or me.....well, I guess I can't speak for you because I don't know you, but I'm not worried about someone wasting their time with me.

Where is the outrage from the Obama supporters?  If Bush was still President they'd be marching in the streets.  Comical.

That is all great until they make you are doing illegal. California is working hard to make a ton of law abiding citizens criminals over night just for owning something that was previously legal and is now not. Guess with all the data they have collected, they know right where to go to round up all these criminals. You want everyone to give an inch to "protect us from terrorists" and we just need to trust that the government won't take a mile. I think we have seen plenty of evidence in the last two months that the government is taking their mile in more ways than one. This is no different than what they are trying to do with gun control. Keep chipping away at it and eventually they will get where they want to be, and IMO anyone who is complacent in the chipping is part of the problem.

Where?  So far I haven't seen where they have done anything outside of what the courts and federal judges said they could do.....that IS the way the system works, ya know?  I have seen where they admitted to mistakes and took the proper steps to report them.....but I haven't seen a SINGLE thing yet that says they were outside of the law.

I don't mean to rain on your parade Aaron....but apparently when you aren't looking LOTS of laws get passed making things illegal that were previously legal.....it's even been done before with assault rifles and magazines......wow, a lot of people sure went to jail over that one, huh?

Again....it's all alot of noise....in practice it doesn't affect our lives at all.....but it does give everyone something to whine about. 

 

That may be the way the system is currently working but that is not how it is supposed to work nor how it was designed. According to your posts as long as the judges and Congress are on board they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever laws they want cuz that is "how the system works". But the system was not designed that way, the constitution is supposed to bestow very limited power from the people to the government, they don't get to do whatever they want, they get to do what they are assigned to do by the people thru the constitution. IMO they have gone much too far in what they do. (Oh and nice try with the previous assault weapon ban, you know full well there was a grandfather clause there and there is no such clause in the current laws being pushed in CA)

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.




I did not make the arguments you think I made. And for some reason I can't bold so that is the scope of my response.
2013-06-10 2:39 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.




LB, you keep treating this like all they are doing is collecting phone records. I think I'm not alone when I say I belive they are gathering more info than that. I think that's where a big difference of opinion comes from.


2013-06-10 3:09 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Left Brain

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.

LB, you keep treating this like all they are doing is collecting phone records. I think I'm not alone when I say I belive they are gathering more info than that. I think that's where a big difference of opinion comes from.

I'm sure they also have e-mail addresses.  I'm sure they have text messages and texts of e-mails...and I'm sure they have phone conversations....but they had to jump through bigger and bigger hoops to get that information.  You guys act like these federal Agencies like NSA and the FBI, and whoever just operate on their own with no oversight.  You are so far off the mark that it barely rates commenting on. Look, the BEST thing that will come out of all of this is that the public will be alot more hesitant about just giving their information out to whoever asks for it......or maybe we won't.

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.

2013-06-10 4:04 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.




Banks can't send you to Gitmo. Banks can't do much of anything to you. Banks are a business. We can move our money elsewhere if we're unhappy with a bank.

We can't switch NSAs. We're stuck with the one we have. They shouldn't have this much access to information. Not under this or any other administration.

I also find it really hypocritical of you LB to say you trust the Government with the ability to get this information and then you call the guy who made these claims a "kook" and "traitor". Then they're hiring "kooks" and "traitors" and then giving them access to data with a simple request. So why should we trust them with that data if they put kooks and traitors on the switch?

And no, banks cannot get secret permission to listen in on your phone calls or watch your skype chats.

2013-06-10 4:24 PM
in reply to: GomesBolt

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.

Banks can't send you to Gitmo. Banks can't do much of anything to you. Banks are a business. We can move our money elsewhere if we're unhappy with a bank. We can't switch NSAs. We're stuck with the one we have. They shouldn't have this much access to information. Not under this or any other administration. I also find it really hypocritical of you LB to say you trust the Government with the ability to get this information and then you call the guy who made these claims a "kook" and "traitor". Then they're hiring "kooks" and "traitors" and then giving them access to data with a simple request. So why should we trust them with that data if they put kooks and traitors on the switch? And no, banks cannot get secret permission to listen in on your phone calls or watch your skype chats.

Hey Gomes.....most of our traitors have been employees of those agencies, so hardly hypocritical.  People give away secrets for a variety of reasons, but let's face it...THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE SECRETS!

Uh.....here's another for you Gomes....if I REALLY want to find out somethign about you, I subpeona the databases of financial institutions or any number of private companies that PAY THE BANKS for the information.  (we actually pay a yearly fee to have access to the information from a number of databases). 

As for "secret permission" to listen to your phones calls....it's called a search warrant.....they've been around a while now. of course banks can't do that..,....but neither can the govt. without the intervention of the courts......that's how our system is set up.

I'm going to say this again.  What the govt. may have collected on this deal absolutely pales in comparison to what is already floating around on you.  You might as well proceed with your life as if nothing is a secret....because very little is.  I get videotaped doing my job almost every time I'm out in public these days....so what?

More tin foil please!!

2013-06-10 4:44 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Left Brain

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.

LB, you keep treating this like all they are doing is collecting phone records. I think I'm not alone when I say I belive they are gathering more info than that. I think that's where a big difference of opinion comes from.

I'm sure they also have e-mail addresses.  I'm sure they have text messages and texts of e-mails...and I'm sure they have phone conversations....but they had to jump through bigger and bigger hoops to get that information.  You guys act like these federal Agencies like NSA and the FBI, and whoever just operate on their own with no oversight.  You are so far off the mark that it barely rates commenting on. Look, the BEST thing that will come out of all of this is that the public will be alot more hesitant about just giving their information out to whoever asks for it......or maybe we won't.

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.




Much like the IRS was acting with no oversight when it targeted conservative groups? Much like there was no oversight in Benghazi when 4 people died. Much like Axlerod likes to say the government is too huge for anyone to really know what is going on in it?

Banks don't make laws, banks can't put you in jail, etc.

Governments are the ones who when Katrina hit went door to door confiscating weapons, would have been even easier with a database of everyone who ever bought a magazine online.

Government is who went door to door in Boston throwing people out of their homes with no warrants because there was one guy on the loose.

2013-06-10 5:04 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.

Banks can't send you to Gitmo. Banks can't do much of anything to you. Banks are a business. We can move our money elsewhere if we're unhappy with a bank. We can't switch NSAs. We're stuck with the one we have. They shouldn't have this much access to information. Not under this or any other administration. I also find it really hypocritical of you LB to say you trust the Government with the ability to get this information and then you call the guy who made these claims a "kook" and "traitor". Then they're hiring "kooks" and "traitors" and then giving them access to data with a simple request. So why should we trust them with that data if they put kooks and traitors on the switch? And no, banks cannot get secret permission to listen in on your phone calls or watch your skype chats.

Hey Gomes.....most of our traitors have been employees of those agencies, so hardly hypocritical.  People give away secrets for a variety of reasons, but let's face it...THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE SECRETS!

Uh.....here's another for you Gomes....if I REALLY want to find out somethign about you, I subpeona the databases of financial institutions or any number of private companies that PAY THE BANKS for the information.  (we actually pay a yearly fee to have access to the information from a number of databases). 

As for "secret permission" to listen to your phones calls....it's called a search warrant.....they've been around a while now. of course banks can't do that..,....but neither can the govt. without the intervention of the courts......that's how our system is set up.

I'm going to say this again.  What the govt. may have collected on this deal absolutely pales in comparison to what is already floating around on you.  You might as well proceed with your life as if nothing is a secret....because very little is.  I get videotaped doing my job almost every time I'm out in public these days....so what?

More tin foil please!!




I can see playing point-counterpoint isn't working so I'll try to understand what it is your saying. Is it one of the below?

"You should give up your right to privacy because everything about you is already public." Which you say above. Also which would imply the 4th amendment should be edited.
or
"You don't have to worry about government officials prying into your private information and communications until you break the law because we have to show probable cause to listen to your calls/read your emails/etc. But we can collect data without PC in-case you do commit a crime so we can backtrack through everyone you called before the incident."

I'm seriously trying to understand your point because your arguments are all over the place and the amount of times you type my name makes me think you have the hots for me...

My point is that government should have more controls over their ability to see personal emails, listen to phone conversations, and see video chats between two people unless they have probable cause to do so. If they don't have probable cause, they shouldn't be gathering the data on me or anyone else.

Why not fingerprint and DNA swab everyone at age 16. That way we have a good database of every person out there and we can pull-up the suspects immediately. That's essentially what you're saying but instead of physical, it's digital.


2013-06-10 5:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

New user
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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Left Brain

Aaron.....here is a fact for you.  The courts have ruled that the type of information being collected is not protected under the 4th amendment.  The NSA asked for, and recieved, court orders to collect the data.  The court orders and the data come under review every 60-90 days.  This is nothing new.......the scope of it certainly makes you go WOW....but that is where we are with the current technology.  Under old technology, ie. pin registers, we could grab every phone number coming into specific phone lines.....that's old hat now, and the result is simply a larger database.  How in the world do you think your phone number is private from anyone when it comes up on caller ID's?  How is the world would you consider your e-mail address private when you use it and send it to thousands of people......these are all things that the court has ruled on.

Maybe it will be revisited......but I'll wager (only one, not tryin gto stack the deck like Gomes) that the outcome is the same.  Information that you freely give out is NOT private.....any more than the trash you set on your curb is.

LB, you keep treating this like all they are doing is collecting phone records. I think I'm not alone when I say I belive they are gathering more info than that. I think that's where a big difference of opinion comes from.

I'm sure they also have e-mail addresses.  I'm sure they have text messages and texts of e-mails...and I'm sure they have phone conversations....but they had to jump through bigger and bigger hoops to get that information.  You guys act like these federal Agencies like NSA and the FBI, and whoever just operate on their own with no oversight.  You are so far off the mark that it barely rates commenting on. Look, the BEST thing that will come out of all of this is that the public will be alot more hesitant about just giving their information out to whoever asks for it......or maybe we won't.

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.




Actually, the BEST thing that could come out of all this is that the 4th amendment is strengthened and the gov. is not allowed to gather ANYONE'S electronic data without a warrant and probable cause.
2013-06-10 11:31 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by GomesBolt
Originally posted by Left Brain

I don't think that the govt. is Big Brother at all....again, you guys have probably not seen the information that has been collected on you and your life.  Big Brother is the financial sector that you have NO secrets from....they make what the govt. has just collected look like rank amateurs.  I just find it funny that there is this outrage over the possibility that a govt. agency may be collecting information that you freely give away every day, and amounts to MUCH less information than your bank has on you.

Banks can't send you to Gitmo. Banks can't do much of anything to you. Banks are a business. We can move our money elsewhere if we're unhappy with a bank. We can't switch NSAs. We're stuck with the one we have. They shouldn't have this much access to information. Not under this or any other administration. I also find it really hypocritical of you LB to say you trust the Government with the ability to get this information and then you call the guy who made these claims a "kook" and "traitor". Then they're hiring "kooks" and "traitors" and then giving them access to data with a simple request. So why should we trust them with that data if they put kooks and traitors on the switch? And no, banks cannot get secret permission to listen in on your phone calls or watch your skype chats.

Hey Gomes.....most of our traitors have been employees of those agencies, so hardly hypocritical.  People give away secrets for a variety of reasons, but let's face it...THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE SECRETS!

Uh.....here's another for you Gomes....if I REALLY want to find out somethign about you, I subpeona the databases of financial institutions or any number of private companies that PAY THE BANKS for the information.  (we actually pay a yearly fee to have access to the information from a number of databases). 

As for "secret permission" to listen to your phones calls....it's called a search warrant.....they've been around a while now. of course banks can't do that..,....but neither can the govt. without the intervention of the courts......that's how our system is set up.

I'm going to say this again.  What the govt. may have collected on this deal absolutely pales in comparison to what is already floating around on you.  You might as well proceed with your life as if nothing is a secret....because very little is.  I get videotaped doing my job almost every time I'm out in public these days....so what?

More tin foil please!!

I can see playing point-counterpoint isn't working so I'll try to understand what it is your saying. Is it one of the below? "You should give up your right to privacy because everything about you is already public." Which you say above. Also which would imply the 4th amendment should be edited. or "You don't have to worry about government officials prying into your private information and communications until you break the law because we have to show probable cause to listen to your calls/read your emails/etc. But we can collect data without PC in-case you do commit a crime so we can backtrack through everyone you called before the incident." I'm seriously trying to understand your point because your arguments are all over the place and the amount of times you type my name makes me think you have the hots for me... My point is that government should have more controls over their ability to see personal emails, listen to phone conversations, and see video chats between two people unless they have probable cause to do so. If they don't have probable cause, they shouldn't be gathering the data on me or anyone else. Why not fingerprint and DNA swab everyone at age 16. That way we have a good database of every person out there and we can pull-up the suspects immediately. That's essentially what you're saying but instead of physical, it's digital.

Eh....you needn't worry about me having the hots for you.....I'm not attracted to middle aged fat guys. Laughing  (don't get your panties in a bunch, you started itCool

Neither of your quoted sentences makes any sense to me.  As far as your first quote.....you already gave up your privacy, which is how they can collect the data.

As far as your second quote.....nowhere did I say that we could go back and listen to phone conversations you had that have nothing to do with the crime we are investigating.  Sure, if we can show probable cause, and the conversation is available, we MIGHT be able to get it.  Alot will depend on the judge.

As for DNA....while you weren't paying attention the SCOTUS ruled that we can, indeed, collect DNA from people we arrest, just like fingerprints...and we do...."say ahhh" 

I'm going to say this one more time with regard to your other point......the Supreme Court has clearly stated that information you give to a 3rd party is no longer protected by the 4th amendment.  Most of what you put on the internet is not protected...don't like it?....  Burn some cars or something.

My biggest objection to the comments I see here and elsewhere is the idea that the NSA did anything illegal....you may not like it, and you may not agree with it, but the only person who did anything illegal here was Snowden....and if you really want to place you money on a bet, you should put it on the idea that he will end up in prison, where he belongs.

Snowden is no hero....he's a traitor.  I don't know any heros that run off to China to make their play.  He's a disgrace.



Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-10 11:39 PM
2013-06-11 8:06 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Here's the thing- If this is so not quite the big deal and terrorism suspects only, why all the secrecy ? Why not be upfront and say this is what we got and this is what we plan on doing with it ? I think everyone (mostly everyone) agrees catching terrorists before they can act is a good thing. Who's to say it will stop there though ? How do we know it won't be used to gather business information, inhibit competition, disclose meetings health records or sex lives ? Its the invasiveness thats the problem with no recourse and the potential for this to go way beyond what its one benefit may have been intended for.
2013-06-11 8:41 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Verizon giving millions of U.S. phone records to feds
Originally posted by Left Brain]

 As far as your second quote.....nowhere did I say that we could go back and listen to phone conversations you had that have nothing to do with the crime we are investigating.  Sure, if we can show probable cause, and the conversation is available, we MIGHT be able to get it.  Alot will depend on the judge.



You mean like having a FISA judge that grants almost every request given to them?


As for DNA....while you weren't paying attention the SCOTUS ruled that we can, indeed, collect DNA from people we arrest, just like fingerprints...and we do...."say ahhh" 



That's different. They said you can collect DNA from people you've arrested, Gomes said collecting DNA from EVERYONE. Similar to collecting all of the phone records anywhere, then when you find something you can go back and use ti as evidence.


I'm going to say this one more time with regard to your other point......the Supreme Court has clearly stated that information you give to a 3rd party is no longer protected by the 4th amendment.  Most of what you put on the internet is not protected...don't like it?....  Burn some cars or something.

My biggest objection to the comments I see here and elsewhere is the idea that the NSA did anything illegal....you may not like it, and you may not agree with it, but the only person who did anything illegal here was Snowden....and if you really want to place you money on a bet, you should put it on the idea that he will end up in prison, where he belongs.

Snowden is no hero....he's a traitor.  I don't know any heros that run off to China to make their play.  He's a disgrace.




My biggest objection here is that what the NSA is doing is considered legal. History has shown us that this kind of knowledge is not immune from corruption. Let's say the NSA does somehow collect all of this data that Snowden says. Leaving aside the 4th amendment concerns, think about the scumbags who are in DC. Lets say President Romney/Obama (I'm being bipartisan here) get's a call from Koch/Soros about all of those campaign funds they donated. Now they would like some info the NSA has collected on a certain business competitor of theirs.

I feel like this situation is handing a loaded gun to a kid in a classroom. There are literally hundreds of examples of major corruption in our nations short history that proove that the people in charge can't be trusted with the kind of info the NSA is supposedly gathering, yet they are still collecting it.
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