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2013-06-12 8:57 PM
in reply to: Clempson

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: This is worth the watch

the same way as anyone else. he opens his mouth and some people listen. i would like to see how any of the other established religions have a greater authority in way of evidence.

But that's not the way every other religion does it.

You're taking 5,000 years of history and theological understanding, one block built on another, in the case of the religion I subscribe to, and reducing it to a post enlightenment post modern dismissal.

Sorry friend, you don't get away that easily.

 



2013-06-12 9:02 PM
in reply to: dontracy

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Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by dontracy

i believe he stated the belief that reason and faith(feelings) are complementary, not oppositional. the opposite of what you stated originally.

Yes, faith and reason compliment each other. Reason informs faith and faith illuminates reason.

Feelings do not equal faith. That's a misunderstanding of what faith is.



fair enough. it is very rare for anyone to actually hold this view though, most have their limits. its easy to say or write, but most people still like to ignore rational evidence for some things and cling to a contradicting faith.

this view basically means that if you come across any evidence which contradicts a belief (faith) that you have to abandon the belief in favor for the factual evidence because the two cannot contradict one another. which is absolutely mind blowing when you think about young earth creationist. i believe pretty much every theological philosopher has agreed on the fact that physical evidence is real and god wouldn't plant fake evidence just to screw with your faith. which is their answer for dinosaur fossils, or they go full crazy and say they coexisted with us.
2013-06-12 9:09 PM
in reply to: dontracy

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Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by dontracy

the same way as anyone else. he opens his mouth and some people listen. i would like to see how any of the other established religions have a greater authority in way of evidence.

But that's not the way every other religion does it.

You're taking 5,000 years of history and theological understanding, one block built on another, in the case of the religion I subscribe to, and reducing it to a post enlightenment post modern dismissal.

Sorry friend, you don't get away that easily.

 



there is debate among current historians on events within the last hundred years but we are supposed to believe that the ones written by a few people several hundred years after the fact are accurate depictions of what occurred thousands of years ago? i wish we had the same method/ability of event recording they did. not to mention they were recorded by people who had everything to gain (power) from them being recorded the way they were.
2013-06-12 9:15 PM
in reply to: 0

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by Clempson
Originally posted by dontracy

i believe he stated the belief that reason and faith(feelings) are complementary, not oppositional. the opposite of what you stated originally.

Yes, faith and reason compliment each other. Reason informs faith and faith illuminates reason.

Feelings do not equal faith. That's a misunderstanding of what faith is.

fair enough. it is very rare for anyone to actually hold this view though, most have their limits. its easy to say or write, but most people still like to ignore rational evidence for some things and cling to a contradicting faith. this view basically means that if you come across any evidence which contradicts a belief (faith) that you have to abandon the belief in favor for the factual evidence because the two cannot contradict one another. which is absolutely mind blowing when you think about young earth creationist. i believe pretty much every theological philosopher has agreed on the fact that physical evidence is real and god wouldn't plant fake evidence just to screw with your faith. which is their answer for dinosaur fossils, or they go full crazy and say they coexisted with us.

I agree!

There is no contradiction between faith and reason.
There ought not be any contradiction between religion and science.

That works both ways: religion ought not contradict fact based science, and science ought not to define aspects of metaphysics that are outside its sphere of expertise.



Edited by dontracy 2013-06-12 9:19 PM
2013-06-12 9:40 PM
in reply to: dontracy

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Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by dontracy

Everyone on this planet who claims to believe in God has "made up" their own God.  No one has authority.  Think about the absurdity of claiming to have "authority" on God.  He certainly isn't claiming authority in this video, but he is certainly challenging it.

Yes, he is claiming authority.

He's saying, "they're wrong". and then saying, "this is the way it really is". (paraphrasing)

First he needs to show how he gets the authority to make such a claim.

No, no he doesn't.  He has a belief.  You don't have to believe him, but he doesn't have to "show how he gets the authority" as he is claiming his belief, not his authority.

He believes that God would not create hell.  That hell is a construct of religion. There is not 5000 years of evidence of hell;  there is a collection of writings by humans that discuss hell over a long period of time.  That same collection of writings depict a god who has very human emotions and drives, particularly in the Old Testament. There is no evidence of a God like that, or any other God, and no amount of writing about it makes it so.

What you describe as "building blocks" could also be described, by someone with a different belief system, as a "house of cards".

2013-06-12 10:17 PM
in reply to: 0

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by switch
Originally posted by dontracy

Everyone on this planet who claims to believe in God has "made up" their own God.  No one has authority.  Think about the absurdity of claiming to have "authority" on God.  He certainly isn't claiming authority in this video, but he is certainly challenging it.

Yes, he is claiming authority.

He's saying, "they're wrong". and then saying, "this is the way it really is". (paraphrasing)

First he needs to show how he gets the authority to make such a claim.

No, no he doesn't.  He has a belief.  You don't have to believe him, but he doesn't have to "show how he gets the authority" as he is claiming his belief, not his authority.

He believes that God would not create hell.  That hell is a construct of religion. There is not 5000 years of evidence of hell;  there is a collection of writings by humans that discuss hell over a long period of time.  That same collection of writings depict a god who has very human emotions and drives, particularly in the Old Testament. There is no evidence of a God like that, or any other God, and no amount of writing about it makes it so.

What you describe as "building blocks" could also be described, by someone with a different belief system, as a "house of cards".

Hey, if you like it go for it. It's still a free country I think. Maybe not.

I'll tell you though that within the context of serious Christian theological thinking, Spong is spiritual-psycho-babble clap trap.

Christianity as taught in Catholicism isn't built on a house of cards. It stands as a coherent whole without contradiction. The only system that stands as such.

If you're hungry for the truth as I am, keep going toward it.  Maybe Spong is a step along the way. I'm telling you though, if you follow his thinking and reduce it down you will find contradictions.  You'll see that what he's preaching is not true. Some people stop at their comfort level. That's fine. Others keep drilling down into the well of truth. If you're the latter, and it seems that you are, you'll discard Spong and his ilk in due time. Guaranteed.



Edited by dontracy 2013-06-12 10:18 PM


2013-06-12 11:37 PM
in reply to: dontracy

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Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by dontracy
Originally posted by switch
Originally posted by dontracy

Everyone on this planet who claims to believe in God has "made up" their own God.  No one has authority.  Think about the absurdity of claiming to have "authority" on God.  He certainly isn't claiming authority in this video, but he is certainly challenging it.

Yes, he is claiming authority.

He's saying, "they're wrong". and then saying, "this is the way it really is". (paraphrasing)

First he needs to show how he gets the authority to make such a claim.

No, no he doesn't.  He has a belief.  You don't have to believe him, but he doesn't have to "show how he gets the authority" as he is claiming his belief, not his authority.

He believes that God would not create hell.  That hell is a construct of religion. There is not 5000 years of evidence of hell;  there is a collection of writings by humans that discuss hell over a long period of time.  That same collection of writings depict a god who has very human emotions and drives, particularly in the Old Testament. There is no evidence of a God like that, or any other God, and no amount of writing about it makes it so.

What you describe as "building blocks" could also be described, by someone with a different belief system, as a "house of cards".

Hey, if you like it go for it. It's still a free country I think. Maybe not.

I'll tell you though that within the context of serious Christian theological thinking, Spong is spiritual-psycho-babble clap trap.

Christianity as taught in Catholicism isn't built on a house of cards. It stands as a coherent whole without contradiction. The only system that stands as such.

If you're hungry for the truth as I am, keep going toward it.  Maybe Spong is a step along the way. I'm telling you though, if you follow his thinking and reduce it down you will find contradictions.  You'll see that what he's preaching is not true. Some people stop at their comfort level. That's fine. Others keep drilling down into the well of truth. If you're the latter, and it seems that you are, you'll discard Spong and his ilk in due time. Guaranteed.

I hope God's not storing e-mails and phone numbers in a cave somewhere.......there will be hell to pay for THAT!

2013-06-13 6:39 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: This is worth the watch

I hope God's not storing e-mails and phone numbers in a cave somewhere.......there will be hell to pay for THAT!

The Dead Sea Emails!

I wish everyone well in their search for God.
Nothing is more important or as much of an adventure. 

2013-06-13 8:22 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: This is worth the watch

DT "I'll tell you though that within the context of serious Christian theological thinking, Spong is spiritual-psycho-babble clap trap."

Putting judgement on belief seems to me to be antithetical to God, and certainly to Christian values.  Don, I think what resonates with me about what Spong is saying is that God is too big for humans to even comprehend, let alone for one group to judge the worthiness of another's thoughts about God.  If there is a God, God would be something that our little human minds could not comprehend.  Try to comprehend, sure, but really understand, I don't think so.  And to say that one group has "serious Christian theological thinking" and another is "spiritual0psycho-babble clap trap" is inherently problematic in its judgement--it's human judgement.  Really, think about that.

DT "Christianity as taught in Catholicism isn't built on a house of cards. It stands as a coherent whole without contradiction. The only system that stands as such."

Don, I admire your tenacity and your resolute faith, but to say that your particular faith, Catholicism "stands as a coherent whole without contradiction" is an almost mindboggling assertion, that, to me, requires negating the last 2000 years of history, particularly as it relates to the political aspects of the Catholic church.  The Christianity that has been taught by the Catholic Church in its most recent dealings of systemic sexual abuse and protection of perpetrators can not be separated from it; it is one of the single most incredible contradictions of the teachings of Christ that I could ever imagine.  

You said it yourself in this thread:

Jesus never said, "Blessed are the tolerant". Tolerance isn't a virtue.

If you love someone, then you're willing to speak the truth to them. Love is a Christian virtue.
It's willing the good of another for their own end and then doing something about it. 
Sometimes that pi$$es people off.

 

I am speaking the truth to you brother.


 




Edited by switch 2013-06-13 8:23 AM
2013-06-13 8:38 PM
in reply to: switch

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: This is worth the watch
Originally posted by switch

DT "I'll tell you though that within the context of serious Christian theological thinking, Spong is spiritual-psycho-babble clap trap."

Putting judgement on belief seems to me to be antithetical to God, and certainly to Christian values.  Don, I think what resonates with me about what Spong is saying is that God is too big for humans to even comprehend, let alone for one group to judge the worthiness of another's thoughts about God.  If there is a God, God would be something that our little human minds could not comprehend.  Try to comprehend, sure, but really understand, I don't think so.  And to say that one group has "serious Christian theological thinking" and another is "spiritual0psycho-babble clap trap" is inherently problematic in its judgement--it's human judgement.  Really, think about that.

DT "Christianity as taught in Catholicism isn't built on a house of cards. It stands as a coherent whole without contradiction. The only system that stands as such."

Don, I admire your tenacity and your resolute faith, but to say that your particular faith, Catholicism "stands as a coherent whole without contradiction" is an almost mindboggling assertion, that, to me, requires negating the last 2000 years of history, particularly as it relates to the political aspects of the Catholic church.  The Christianity that has been taught by the Catholic Church in its most recent dealings of systemic sexual abuse and protection of perpetrators can not be separated from it; it is one of the single most incredible contradictions of the teachings of Christ that I could ever imagine.  

You said it yourself in this thread:

Jesus never said, "Blessed are the tolerant". Tolerance isn't a virtue.

If you love someone, then you're willing to speak the truth to them. Love is a Christian virtue.
It's willing the good of another for their own end and then doing something about it. 
Sometimes that pi$$es people off.

 

I am speaking the truth to you brother.


 


 

Yes, I made a judgement. I am judgemental.

Just as Spong did in the video you posted. He made statements in judgement and with that judgement attacked my faith and religion.

The difference is that I can back up my judgement more coherently than Spong can his.

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