Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars
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Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller | Reply |
2013-07-03 8:48 AM |
New user 17 JoCo Kansas | Subject: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I have a question..... I am a fairly broad shouldered guy, and last weekend my riding group started giving me a hard time about the value of my Aero bars on my ride. After they got past the humor of the 'circus gorilla' comments, they did start debating whether a guy with extra shoulder width actually gained anything from the aero position. My riding group is all fairly thin, and while they are in great shape they wouldn't be someone you would want on your side in a bar fight. No matter.... They split just about evenly on the question, and a couple of the engineers in the group are still debating it. Before this derails into a physics discussion that gets tedious to follow, I wanted other opinions. So I am putting the question out here: Do Aero bars provide meaningful value for a rider who is particularly broad when he is in the saddle? |
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2013-07-03 8:56 AM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Member 43 Newmarket, NH | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Yes. |
2013-07-03 9:03 AM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Think in extremes to visualize: lets assume a 2x4 board (small shoulder guy) and a 2x8 board (big shoulder guy). Both boards are 4 feet long. now will have the boards more wind resistance parallell to the ground or perpendicular? In other words the extra width applies to the total length, hence I would argue that the big shoulder guy has MORE of an advantage in aero than the small shoulder guy. |
2013-07-03 11:17 AM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Member 43 Newmarket, NH | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I tried to keep physics out of it (hence my simple "yes"), but it's too much fun. Drag force is directly proportional to cross-sectional area, and for the sake of discussion, we can assume all other variables in the equation remain constant (air density, speed, and the drag coefficient). Therefore, the more you reduce the cross-sectional area, the more you reduce your drag force. So, a wide-shouldered guy who reduces his CS area by half (or more) by getting aero also reduces his drag by the same amount. This applies equally to the wide and narrow-shouldered. The overall or absolute drag force of the wide-shouldered guy will still be higher than the narrow-shouldered, but the proportional benefit is the same. |
2013-07-03 11:41 AM in reply to: mpento17 |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars So while the proportional benefit is the same, the absolute benefit is bigger. Hence the gain in speed (at same power) is greater. |
2013-07-03 11:47 AM in reply to: mpento17 |
New user 17 JoCo Kansas | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars OK.... I followed that. Let me adjust my pocket protector and take this a step further..... Assume further that the wide shouldered rider is riding down in the hooks versus sitting upright, and that the rider's body is pretty close to the same level of parallel if he is in the drops as compared to aero. Does that generate the same answer? |
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2013-07-03 12:11 PM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Generally the difference between riding in the drops and in aero is not much. Neither for a broad shoulder or a skinny guy. But in aero you have your arms mostly in front of your body, versus in the drops next to your body. So you still save some aero. Nevertheless this is about to go into a very different discussion: a)Road bike vs. b)Road bike with areo bars vs. c)Tri bike vs. d)Tri bike with hoods Before we go there, keep in mind that there are different geometries in place and b and d are compromises for those that can/don't want to affoard a AND c |
2013-07-03 12:16 PM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Champion 4942 Richmond, VA | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars First off, I read somewhere (and could be completely wrong about this), that you do not gain any noticeable benefit in the aero position unless you are going over 20 mph. From what I read, below that speed, you aren't generating enough wind resistance to really change the equation of wind resistance. (granted, I'm sure it isn't a 20 mph "AAHH moment" but more of a general guideline - e.g. being aero at 17.5 mph versus upright at 22.5 mph) Secondly, as to your follow-up question, I would look at it from "surface area" facing the wind. The more surface area you expose to the wind, the greater the benefit for wind resistance. (e.g. akin to a sailboat having a larger sail). If in the drops, you are making an oval shape with your body allowing the wind to funnel into your chest, you are thus adding drag. But if in the aero bars you are more streamlined, your arms blocking the wind into your midsection, then you would have less drag. But I suspect this is a more academic inquiry, but you also have to account for if you are faster cyclist in the drop bars versus aero bars - wind resistance can be offset by your own ability to go faster further... |
2013-07-03 12:18 PM in reply to: condorman |
Champion 4942 Richmond, VA | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Also, it depends if your bike is red or blue - bc I hear red bikes go faster. |
2013-07-03 1:14 PM in reply to: condorman |
Member 43 Newmarket, NH | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Well, yes, of course. I took that as a given. |
2013-07-03 2:13 PM in reply to: condorman |
New user 17 JoCo Kansas | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I agree with the wind resistance decrease being offset by the ability to go faster and further. The aero's feel good, and for long flats they work great. Give me lots of up and down and/or vicious crosswinds and I think they have a diminishing return on the value they provide. (To your point....) They are an add on to a pretty good road bike, and on some spots in my ride they serve their purpose. But before I get serious and start playing with upgrades or with shifter locations and other tinkering in the off season I am going to try and make up my mind on the value they really provide. I have four more races this season to mess with this. If it wasn't this aero issue, it would be something else to fixate on no doubt.... |
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2013-07-03 2:20 PM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars My advice from a big guy that had a road bike, then road bike with aero bars and now a road bike and tri bike: If you got aero bars on your road bike, consider them as a further position to ride in, but don;t move shifters or worry too much about the aero bar positions. If you can afford get a tri bike, but be aware that your bike split might not be a lot faster. Your run though would benefit more. |
2013-07-03 5:34 PM in reply to: condorman |
Expert 1360 | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Originally posted by condorman First off, I read somewhere (and could be completely wrong about this), that you do not gain any noticeable benefit in the aero position unless you are going over 20 mph. From what I read, below that speed, you aren't generating enough wind resistance to really change the equation of wind resistance. (granted, I'm sure it isn't a 20 mph "AAHH moment" but more of a general guideline - e.g. being aero at 17.5 mph versus upright at 22.5 mph) Secondly, as to your follow-up question, I would look at it from "surface area" facing the wind. The more surface area you expose to the wind, the greater the benefit for wind resistance. (e.g. akin to a sailboat having a larger sail). If in the drops, you are making an oval shape with your body allowing the wind to funnel into your chest, you are thus adding drag. But if in the aero bars you are more streamlined, your arms blocking the wind into your midsection, then you would have less drag. But I suspect this is a more academic inquiry, but you also have to account for if you are faster cyclist in the drop bars versus aero bars - wind resistance can be offset by your own ability to go faster further... I'm pretty sure that this has been proven wrong. Anyone that has ridden in the wind upright versus in aero would be able to attest to this. I believe the % of savings is greater at over 20 mph, but there is savings no matter how fast you are going. even though the % gain is lower for the slower rider, they have potentially more time to gain as they will be on the bike longer. There was a thread on the main forum about this last week. |
2013-07-03 5:44 PM in reply to: Daffodil |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars drag grows with the square of speed. Hence the more forntal wind you have the more important is the aerodynamics. Aero benefits will be there as soon as your headwind exceed 0mph, but it might not be significant until later. Though note that significant is an individual measure! |
2013-07-03 8:54 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Veteran 320 Edmonton, AB | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I would add that whether or not there is any benefit in terms of resistance, it's just so comfortable on long rides. You don't get the numb hands, and I find it relaxing even. Just my 2 cents. |
2013-07-04 9:20 AM in reply to: Fatboy32 |
Pro 4838 | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Originally posted by Fatboy32 I would add that whether or not there is any benefit in terms of resistance, it's just so comfortable on long rides. You don't get the numb hands, and I find it relaxing even. Just my 2 cents. Agreed. I'm a big cat myself (6'4 250ish) very wide shouldered former college linebacker. So I did my first try a few years back and didn't have aero bars. The wind killed me. I was like a big sail and my hands were numb and my triceps were sore. Now I have added aero bars and I'm much faster (for me) then I was catching wind. And I don't get the numb hands and sore arms so it has been a plus for me. |
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2013-07-04 11:27 AM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Regular 176 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars This is a great discussion. I've read similar one's here, on SlowTwitch and RoadBikeReview. Unless I missed it, one thing I don't see in the discussion is also how far the rider is leaning over, i.e. getting their torso closer to horizontal, which is only another point about the cross-section note. The closer to horizontal, all other things being equal, the less surface area is presented to create wind resistance. I just added aero bars a week ago and as the same cadence and gear, I'm faster. Depending on the gear, wind, etc, it may only be a 1/2 mph, but on others its 1 to 1.5 mph more. |
2013-07-14 10:31 PM in reply to: Maniton |
8 | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars Ive been wondering about this is well. I would think it depends the geometry of your bike and position. I would go to a bike store and ask their bike fitter their opinion. I am a bigger guy, 6ft, 225 and wear a 50 suit coat, I feel like im too wide to be comfortable. However, the possibility of wider handle bars would seem the route to go. or even change the stem. I would like to try aero bars. I have a road bike. |
2013-07-18 7:13 PM in reply to: Magnum Athletos |
Regular 226 Saint Petersburg, FL | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I added aero bars to my road bike and had the local bike shop change some of the geometry to apporach more of a TRI Bike geometry (as much as it could). At the time I couldn't afford a TRI bike so had to make it with what I had. My aero bars were spaced a bit wider than for someone with narrower shoulders and I have found I'm not that much faster but can keep my pace with a bit less effort and for a longer period of time. I haven't done any side by side comparisons but I'm confident I have achieved some benefit. I was much heavier than I am now when I started so I went back to the bike shop and have had some additiona (slight) adjustments made. I'm a bit more limber, leaner and in better shape than when I started. You may want to get a formal fit with the aerobars on your bike now. Good luck. |
2013-07-22 10:31 AM in reply to: SWFLFATGUY |
Regular 180 Clinton, TN | Subject: RE: Broad Shoulders and Aero Bars I added bars and I don't know if I was faster, but I sure was more comfortable. My bike is red so I had to be faster. And I did see a big difference in the run. Did not seem as tired heading into the run. Could have been psychological but it worked! |
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