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2013-08-10 9:12 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".




One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election.

I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.


2013-08-10 10:00 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".

One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election. I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.

I read an article the other day that spoke of "President Palin" having access to all this information in four years.  It was a take on Obama supporters being all for it now, but big time against it with somebody they despise in office.  It was obviously hypothetical, but kind of entertaining.

I know the slippery slope argument is often discredited, but you are right that on the surface having access to who I called isn't that big of a deal.  However, even the most innocent things can easily become a really big deal.
There was a story last week about a couple in New York (i think) who had their house raided because of searches on their computer for pressure cookers and backpacks.  It wasn't the NSA that tipped it off, but an IT person at a company who noticed it, but it's the same idea.  As we go further and further down this road, the most innocuous of things we may do on the internet or with our cellphones can potentially lead to our doors being broken in by the PoPo and used against you/me in court.

I am personally very skeptical of the police and how they use the information they're given.  I did something very innocent back in 2006 and when the police came to ask me about it I explained everything.  I allowed them to look at my computers and anything else they wanted because I did nothing wrong and had nothing to hide.  They twisted what I said and used stuff on my computer that had nothing to do with the event to ultimately put me in jail for 60 days with a misdemeanor conviction.  So, I've lived it first hand and I will fight till my dying days for our civil rights in this country.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

2013-08-10 11:21 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".

One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election. I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.

I they despise in office.  It was obviously hypothetical, but kind of entertaining.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin



Yeah, I knew this Franklin quote would pop up. I almost did the "Franklin quote in 3...2..1.." It's become a very popular sentiment and while it hold some merit, it, like everything the Founding Fathers wrote, was based on a world that is long gone. There are threats against our safety that the FF's could never have imagined and it's not uneasonable to recognize that we have to adapt to this new world. Cherry-picking quotes from the FF's, like cherry-picking quotes from the bible that suit one's argument and conveniently ignoring the FF's when they spoke about topics that don't jibe with ones particular pov always makes me smile. The people who love to trot out this quote tend to go quiet when you mention Franklin's beliefs about the separation of church and state.
2013-08-10 2:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".




One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election.

I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.


I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published.

Oh what's that? It seems it already has been.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Edited by JoshR 2013-08-10 2:11 PM
2013-08-10 2:10 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".

One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election. I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.

I they despise in office.  It was obviously hypothetical, but kind of entertaining.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, I knew this Franklin quote would pop up. I almost did the "Franklin quote in 3...2..1.." It's become a very popular sentiment and while it hold some merit, it, like everything the Founding Fathers wrote, was based on a world that is long gone. There are threats against our safety that the FF's could never have imagined and it's not uneasonable to recognize that we have to adapt to this new world. Cherry-picking quotes from the FF's, like cherry-picking quotes from the bible that suit one's argument and conveniently ignoring the FF's when they spoke about topics that don't jibe with ones particular pov always makes me smile. The people who love to trot out this quote tend to go quiet when you mention Franklin's beliefs about the separation of church and state.

I'm not sure where I was cherry picking his quote.  If you have a different quote where he says it's OK to give up your 4th amendment rights if the times change then I'll rescind my quote.  Benjamin Franklin was a strong supporter of the 4th amendment and his quote was a warning to us all.

I think you grossly ignore the threats that our FF's were facing in their day as well.  It is estimated that almost 150k civilians were killed in the revolutionary war, 35k civilians in the war of 1812, and 500k civilians during the civil war.  
In comparison we've lost a little over 3k civilians in the war on terror.  So, yes we face a foe that wants to kill us, but how exactly is the terrorism threat today worse than what our FF's faced in their long gone world?

Also, I'm not sure what Ben Franklin being an atheist and the establishment clause has to do with the NSA violating the 4th amendment in the name of security.

2013-08-10 3:45 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

So, if the NSA violated my 4th amendment rights, and tried to use that evidence in court to indite me for.. whatever offense. (I"m assuming that the uproar is over this very fact) Then the evidence would not be admissable in court.. correct? 

I'm really trying to understand the hoopla. I can understand NSA's premiss of combing through a lot of hay (data) to look for trends in order to find the needle in the haystack.. (a terrorist), but I'm not sure how the government has, so far, used the information to hurt ordinary citizens. 



2013-08-10 3:54 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

2013-08-10 4:45 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1

So, if the NSA violated my 4th amendment rights, and tried to use that evidence in court to indite me for.. whatever offense. (I"m assuming that the uproar is over this very fact) Then the evidence would not be admissable in court.. correct? 

I'm really trying to understand the hoopla. I can understand NSA's premiss of combing through a lot of hay (data) to look for trends in order to find the needle in the haystack.. (a terrorist), but I'm not sure how the government has, so far, used the information to hurt ordinary citizens. 

This is honestly the struggle with this whole thing.  In a normal court of law with an effective defense, you are absolutely correct.  If the NSA hypothetically arrested and charged me because I was searching for pressure cooker bombs or something like that.  However, with the legal system the way it is in America the poor are often unable to put up an effective defense.  If you don't have money, you have a pretty good shot of going to jail under just about any charge.

The other part is when you throw things like this on top of the Patriot Act which allows the government to detain without charge a US citizen INDEFINITELY.  They only have to suspect that someone is a terrorist to detain them.  No, the government isn't out rounding people up and doing this, but the mere fact that there are laws in place that allow the executive branch to arrest and indefinitely detain a US citizen should scare the crap out of people.

The government watches every email, every phone call, every internet search for "terrorist activity".  If the executive branch feels the activity raises to a certain level then they feel they have the legal right to arrest and indefinitely detain that individual.  How is this any different than the KGB of old in Russia?

2013-08-10 5:42 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

The ends still don't justify the means, because normal people doing nothing wrong can easily be sucked into the suspicion of trafficking drugs.

There was a local story here in Nebraska several weeks ago.  A couple was traveling cross country and was pulled over for speeding.  They allowed the police to search their vehicle and they found close to $1M in cash in the car.  They arrested them and confiscated the money for the simple reason that they suspected it was drug money.  They didn't break any laws at all, other than speeding, yet the money was confiscated.

Turns out the owner was an exotic dancer who saved her money and had tax returns to show it all was legitimate.  It took her over a year and a lot of money fighting in court to get a ruling that the money had to be returned.  Even with the court ruling the police are still refusing to return her money because they are convinced it's drug money.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/07/judge-orders-1-million-returned-to-exotic-dancer/

 

2013-08-10 5:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.




If they are circumventing the legal system then how do we know they aren't just making up info? We don't know when they use this info typically. If you'll notice the Prosecutor in the story found out and didn't want to file charges because it's contrary to our legal system. In addition you are denying the defendant a fair trial because they are lying (under oath I might add, also a crime) about the evidence they've collected.
2013-08-10 6:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn What's shocking about it? That the guy shut down his service without giving his subscribers any notice or giving them the opportunity to recover their data or refunding their money?

I think you're missing the point.  Reading between the lines, by law he had to give NSA access to all of his customers data but he chose to close his business in order to prevent it and protect his customers constitutional rights.

Go google the NSA 3 hop rule.  I can pretty much guarantee that both you and I have had our phone records searched as a result of it.  Even if we haven't every call that you, me, my wife, and three kids have made are all searchable in a government database.  Not cool

As I've mentioned before in other threads.  I find it so ironic that the conservatives/libertarians are the ones arguing for civil rights when the progressives are arguing for more "trust in the government".

One persons' "reading between the lines" is another persons' "making assumptions based on limited information". You're taking the word of a person who you probably never heard of before yesterday and an article from a source that I guarantee you that you were questioning the integrity of back during the last election. I'm not ready to start scanning the skies for black helicopters. All this stuff gets a big "meh" from me and I'm 100% convinced that if the last election had turned out differently, most of the people who are up in arms about it would have a totally different reaction. It's all just more political hyperbole and faux outrage. If the NSA reading my email, I'm more worried about the waste of government resources than I am about being spied upon. And if it prevents even one terrorist attack then that's fine with me. If the people who are opposed to the NSA can think of a better way to hunt terrorists in the us without intercepting and analyzing electronic communications, I'd love to hear it.

I they despise in office.  It was obviously hypothetical, but kind of entertaining.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, I knew this Franklin quote would pop up. I almost did the "Franklin quote in 3...2..1.." It's become a very popular sentiment and while it hold some merit, it, like everything the Founding Fathers wrote, was based on a world that is long gone. There are threats against our safety that the FF's could never have imagined and it's not uneasonable to recognize that we have to adapt to this new world. Cherry-picking quotes from the FF's, like cherry-picking quotes from the bible that suit one's argument and conveniently ignoring the FF's when they spoke about topics that don't jibe with ones particular pov always makes me smile. The people who love to trot out this quote tend to go quiet when you mention Franklin's beliefs about the separation of church and state.

I'm not sure where I was cherry picking his quote.  If you have a different quote where he says it's OK to give up your 4th amendment rights if the times change then I'll rescind my quote.  Benjamin Franklin was a strong supporter of the 4th amendment and his quote was a warning to us all.

I think you grossly ignore the threats that our FF's were facing in their day as well.  It is estimated that almost 150k civilians were killed in the revolutionary war, 35k civilians in the war of 1812, and 500k civilians during the civil war.  
In comparison we've lost a little over 3k civilians in the war on terror.  So, yes we face a foe that wants to kill us, but how exactly is the terrorism threat today worse than what our FF's faced in their long gone world?

Also, I'm not sure what Ben Franklin being an atheist and the establishment clause has to do with the NSA violating the 4th amendment in the name of security.




3,000 people lost in the war on terror may not seem like a lot when you live in Omaha Nebraska, but when they're your neighbors, and you get to see the smoke billowing from the crater where they died on your way home from work every day for a month, it feels like a pretty significant number. I'm not prepared to gut this country's ability to root out terrorists to assuage a few people's paranoia or to placate a bunch of people who are making a big deal out of this for no reason other than to grind a political axe. 99.999% of the so-called outrage about this issue is politically motivated. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is selling ad space on Fox.

Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2013-08-10 6:53 PM


2013-08-10 7:23 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  3,000 people lost in the war on terror may not seem like a lot when you live in Omaha Nebraska, but when they're your neighbors, and you get to see the smoke billowing from the crater where they died on your way home from work every day for a month, it feels like a pretty significant number. I'm not prepared to gut this country's ability to root out terrorists to assuage a few people's paranoia or to placate a bunch of people who are making a big deal out of this for no reason other than to grind a political axe. 99.999% of the so-called outrage about this issue is politically motivated. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is selling ad space on Fox.

So where are your limits on the government if you feel the constitution is irrelevant in the war on terror?

I understand how you can be emotional about this and I am as well.  I was working in the sears tower in Chicago the morning of Sep 11th and it is not a feeling I ever want to have again.  As passionate as I am about rooting out terrorism, I am far more passionate about protecting our civil rights as a nation.  Without them, our country becomes irrelevant and dies which was the goal of the terrorists to begin with.

I'm not sure what political axe I'm grinding.  The NSA spying scandal is one of the most bi-partisan issues in the last 8 years.  Back in July the House almost passed an amendment to immediately stop the entire program and make it illegal to do.  It failed with a 205/217 vote with 94 republicans and 111 democrats voting in favor of halting the program.
Apparently all those democrats had a political axe to grind and sold ad space on Fox. 

2013-08-11 12:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  3,000 people lost in the war on terror may not seem like a lot when you live in Omaha Nebraska, but when they're your neighbors, and you get to see the smoke billowing from the crater where they died on your way home from work every day for a month, it feels like a pretty significant number. I'm not prepared to gut this country's ability to root out terrorists to assuage a few people's paranoia or to placate a bunch of people who are making a big deal out of this for no reason other than to grind a political axe. 99.999% of the so-called outrage about this issue is politically motivated. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is selling ad space on Fox.

So where are your limits on the government if you feel the constitution is irrelevant in the war on terror?

I understand how you can be emotional about this and I am as well.  I was working in the sears tower in Chicago the morning of Sep 11th and it is not a feeling I ever want to have again.  As passionate as I am about rooting out terrorism, I am far more passionate about protecting our civil rights as a nation.  Without them, our country becomes irrelevant and dies which was the goal of the terrorists to begin with.

I'm not sure what political axe I'm grinding.  The NSA spying scandal is one of the most bi-partisan issues in the last 8 years.  Back in July the House almost passed an amendment to immediately stop the entire program and make it illegal to do.  It failed with a 205/217 vote with 94 republicans and 111 democrats voting in favor of halting the program.
Apparently all those democrats had a political axe to grind and sold ad space on Fox. 

I agree with tuwood's post above.  Yes, terrorism has taken lives and we should mourn them.  But we've lost many more lives of soldiers who fought to uphold our freedom and way of life.  And now I think people are all too eager to toss those freedoms in the garbage for an illusion of safety.

That said, look at another side of the coin - the loss of trust in our government.  Even if you ignore politics, the NSA programs are a violation of the public trust.

One place where that trust is lost is in the market.  The USA is a service-based economy.  And much of that is in big data computing.  That requires some level of trust in the service that you're using.  Maybe you're storing credit card info or medical records or the Coca-Cola formula, or who knows what else.  All those things suddenly become unreliable when the NSA can circumvent due process and in some cases the Constitution.  Without that trust, people want to take their business outside the USA.

The FISA court is another source of distrust.  We should not have secret courts in this country, especially not one that approves something like 99.97% of its requests for warrants within 48 hours.  Judicial oversight - yeah right.  It's a rubber stamp.  Also from Wikipedia: due to the classified nature of its proceedings, usually only government attorneys are permitted to appear before the court.  Does that sound a little biased to you?

Of course the cynical person might say the NSA *wants* businesses to move their data out of the USA, since they can then spy to their hearts' content when it's no longer "spying on Americans".

Terrorists want to disrupt our way of life and the economy is a big target.  Blowing up planes, shutting down all our flights and general fear of flying had a direct effect.  But the indirect costs of the NSA spying can be far more costly over time.

Food for thought.



Edited by spudone 2013-08-11 12:12 AM
2013-08-11 6:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  3,000 people lost in the war on terror may not seem like a lot when you live in Omaha Nebraska, but when they're your neighbors, and you get to see the smoke billowing from the crater where they died on your way home from work every day for a month, it feels like a pretty significant number. I'm not prepared to gut this country's ability to root out terrorists to assuage a few people's paranoia or to placate a bunch of people who are making a big deal out of this for no reason other than to grind a political axe. 99.999% of the so-called outrage about this issue is politically motivated. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is selling ad space on Fox.

So where are your limits on the government if you feel the constitution is irrelevant in the war on terror?

I understand how you can be emotional about this and I am as well.  I was working in the sears tower in Chicago the morning of Sep 11th and it is not a feeling I ever want to have again.  As passionate as I am about rooting out terrorism, I am far more passionate about protecting our civil rights as a nation.  Without them, our country becomes irrelevant and dies which was the goal of the terrorists to begin with.

I'm not sure what political axe I'm grinding.  The NSA spying scandal is one of the most bi-partisan issues in the last 8 years.  Back in July the House almost passed an amendment to immediately stop the entire program and make it illegal to do.  It failed with a 205/217 vote with 94 republicans and 111 democrats voting in favor of halting the program.
Apparently all those democrats had a political axe to grind and sold ad space on Fox. 

I agree with tuwood's post above.  Yes, terrorism has taken lives and we should mourn them.  But we've lost many more lives of soldiers who fought to uphold our freedom and way of life.  And now I think people are all too eager to toss those freedoms in the garbage for an illusion of safety.

That said, look at another side of the coin - the loss of trust in our government.  Even if you ignore politics, the NSA programs are a violation of the public trust.

One place where that trust is lost is in the market.  The USA is a service-based economy.  And much of that is in big data computing.  That requires some level of trust in the service that you're using.  Maybe you're storing credit card info or medical records or the Coca-Cola formula, or who knows what else.  All those things suddenly become unreliable when the NSA can circumvent due process and in some cases the Constitution.  Without that trust, people want to take their business outside the USA.

The FISA court is another source of distrust.  We should not have secret courts in this country, especially not one that approves something like 99.97% of its requests for warrants within 48 hours.  Judicial oversight - yeah right.  It's a rubber stamp.  Also from Wikipedia: due to the classified nature of its proceedings, usually only government attorneys are permitted to appear before the court.  Does that sound a little biased to you?

Of course the cynical person might say the NSA *wants* businesses to move their data out of the USA, since they can then spy to their hearts' content when it's no longer "spying on Americans".

Terrorists want to disrupt our way of life and the economy is a big target.  Blowing up planes, shutting down all our flights and general fear of flying had a direct effect.  But the indirect costs of the NSA spying can be far more costly over time.

Food for thought.




So, do we dismantle the NSA altogether? How do,you propose we covertly hunt for terrorists here and abroad without doing the sort of thing that the NSA was created to do?
2013-08-11 9:04 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by JoshR  I would be upset with this if Romney or Obama or Gary Johnson (the guy I voted for) had won the presidency. Our government is so corrupt I guarantee this info is being used inappropriately. For the record I read CNN and Foxnews daily and both sites had this story published. Oh what's that? It seems it already has been. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R2...

Is that the best you can come up with?  Data being used to catch drug runners and money launderers?

Oh the horrors.

If they are circumventing the legal system then how do we know they aren't just making up info? We don't know when they use this info typically. If you'll notice the Prosecutor in the story found out and didn't want to file charges because it's contrary to our legal system. In addition you are denying the defendant a fair trial because they are lying (under oath I might add, also a crime) about the evidence they've collected.

Personally, it's not an area I even care about. It's hard to catch the crooks... if they can pull an a-hole off the street with a tip that leads to a bust and arrest, so be it.

As far as the argument about setting an innocent person up?.. I'm thinking crooked cops could do that with or without a SOD tip.. 

2013-08-11 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

So, do we dismantle the NSA altogether? How do,you propose we covertly hunt for terrorists here and abroad without doing the sort of thing that the NSA was created to do?

The FISA court is a big part of the problem with the NSA's involvement at home right now.

a) Open the FISA court.  I understand they can't and shouldn't give away classified info regarding ongoing investigations.  But this court should be scrutinized carefully after a waiting period.  Right now they have no checks and balances.

b) Right now the judges on the FISA court are all nominated by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.  That's too much power in one person's hands. The judges should be appointed from a wide cross section of the U.S.  (perhaps have each federal appeals court nominate one judge for the FISA court).

c) The FISA court is now making law by precedent, something they never did before until maybe the past few years.  Refer to above about too much power.

d) NSA activities are strictly limited to foreign surveillance.  I'd want this spelled out carefully.  Right now they're operating under laws that were written from the telephone era and have little relevance to computer networks of today.  That means a lot of loopholes and avenues for abuse.  Their mission needs to be clarified and narrowly focused.

e) NSA demands made to USA corporations should be open and on the record.  The *implementation* of how they do these things can remain secret.  But the public should know who they're dealing with and when.

 

Right now, if you think about it, email is almost completely insecure.  You and I can encrypt our email end-to-end but the NSA still knows we're talking to each other.  And that's just assuming home computers.  As soon as I open and read it on a cellphone?  Oh yeah, AT&T, Verizon, Apple, Google... names sound familiar?  All in the NSA's pocket.

Terrorists know this already and have known it for some time.  It's time the public at large became aware of it.



Edited by spudone 2013-08-11 11:41 AM


2013-08-11 5:45 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by spudone

  It's time the public at large became aware of it.

Why? 

If my neighbors were to start disappearing and we started hearing about ordinary citizens  ending up in kangaroo court, then I'd be the first to line up and throw a fit.. 

But I'm really not interested in knowing the details about how NSA goes about catching the bad guys. In fact, I feel safer if it's kept under wraps. I'm assuming that those in the terrorist world know about it because some their efforts have been thwarted by this surveillance. 

2013-08-11 7:40 PM
in reply to: KateTri1

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by KateTri1

Originally posted by spudone

  It's time the public at large became aware of it.

Why? 

If my neighbors were to start disappearing and we started hearing about ordinary citizens  ending up in kangaroo court, then I'd be the first to line up and throw a fit.. 

But I'm really not interested in knowing the details about how NSA goes about catching the bad guys. In fact, I feel safer if it's kept under wraps. I'm assuming that those in the terrorist world know about it because some their efforts have been thwarted by this surveillance. 




Thank you. When I hear about one ordinary citizen who has been personally inconvenienced or wrongfully arrested as a result of this NSA surveillance, I'll rethink my position, but for now, I'm sticking to my story that this is just fodder for anti-Obama folks and conspiracy theorists. "Ooh, but by then it'll be too late, and they'll be marching us off to pre-crime detention camps.." I have no illusions about most of my personal data being "out there" already. The genie got out of that bottle a long time ago and she's not going back in. Until we convert our currency to gold, stuff it into our mattresses, and move off the grid, we will have nothing but a false sense of privacy no matter what we do. It's the price we pay for living in a modern society, and a choice we all made the minute we got ATM cards and gmail accounts.

2013-08-11 9:06 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn  3,000 people lost in the war on terror may not seem like a lot when you live in Omaha Nebraska, but when they're your neighbors, and you get to see the smoke billowing from the crater where they died on your way home from work every day for a month, it feels like a pretty significant number. I'm not prepared to gut this country's ability to root out terrorists to assuage a few people's paranoia or to placate a bunch of people who are making a big deal out of this for no reason other than to grind a political axe. 99.999% of the so-called outrage about this issue is politically motivated. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is selling ad space on Fox.

Nice blinders. I especially love how dismissive you are of anyone that has a problem with a overreaching government power. I had a problem with it when Bush did it. Anything called the "Patriot" act... is BS from the start.

I'm actually speechless. Why don't you go tell the ACLU to close shop if the 4th A is no big deal? And I also must say... individual liberty is not one bit different today that it was 1000 years ago. It's sad to think that a cell phone in your hand makes you think somehow it is.

2013-08-11 9:08 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by spudone

  It's time the public at large became aware of it.

Why? 

If my neighbors were to start disappearing and we started hearing about ordinary citizens  ending up in kangaroo court, then I'd be the first to line up and throw a fit.. 

But I'm really not interested in knowing the details about how NSA goes about catching the bad guys. In fact, I feel safer if it's kept under wraps. I'm assuming that those in the terrorist world know about it because some their efforts have been thwarted by this surveillance. 

Thank you. When I hear about one ordinary citizen who has been personally inconvenienced or wrongfully arrested as a result of this NSA surveillance, I'll rethink my position, but for now, I'm sticking to my story that this is just fodder for anti-Obama folks and conspiracy theorists. "Ooh, but by then it'll be too late, and they'll be marching us off to pre-crime detention camps.." I have no illusions about most of my personal data being "out there" already. The genie got out of that bottle a long time ago and she's not going back in. Until we convert our currency to gold, stuff it into our mattresses, and move off the grid, we will have nothing but a false sense of privacy no matter what we do. It's the price we pay for living in a modern society, and a choice we all made the minute we got ATM cards and gmail accounts.

And exactly how do you think you will ever find out or hear about "that" person?

2013-08-11 9:47 PM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by KateTri1
Originally posted by spudone

  It's time the public at large became aware of it.

Why? 

If my neighbors were to start disappearing and we started hearing about ordinary citizens  ending up in kangaroo court, then I'd be the first to line up and throw a fit.. 

But I'm really not interested in knowing the details about how NSA goes about catching the bad guys. In fact, I feel safer if it's kept under wraps. I'm assuming that those in the terrorist world know about it because some their efforts have been thwarted by this surveillance. 

Thank you. When I hear about one ordinary citizen who has been personally inconvenienced or wrongfully arrested as a result of this NSA surveillance, I'll rethink my position, but for now, I'm sticking to my story that this is just fodder for anti-Obama folks and conspiracy theorists. "Ooh, but by then it'll be too late, and they'll be marching us off to pre-crime detention camps.." I have no illusions about most of my personal data being "out there" already. The genie got out of that bottle a long time ago and she's not going back in. Until we convert our currency to gold, stuff it into our mattresses, and move off the grid, we will have nothing but a false sense of privacy no matter what we do. It's the price we pay for living in a modern society, and a choice we all made the minute we got ATM cards and gmail accounts.

And exactly how do you think you will ever find out or hear about "that" person?




Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.





2013-08-11 11:03 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?

2013-08-12 9:06 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?




Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no?

You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it:

No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election.

Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.
2013-08-12 9:50 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?




Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no?

You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it:

No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election.

Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.


You must not be paying attention to who is complaining about this NSA thing if you think it's purely a partisan affair. Go read the National Review and you'll find many conservatives defending it. Read the Huffington Post and you'll find many liberals complaining about it. You'll see that there are quite a few people who have been complaining about the Patriot Act, NDAA indefinite detention provisions, the targeting of Journalists by this and the previous administration, the NSA issue and many other issues affecting our personal liberty's. As was previously posted, the House bipartisanly almost defunded the NSA activities just a few weeks ago. It was a bipartisan effort to defund it and a bipartisan effort to keep it going so I think it's easy to see this is an issue that is splitting both sides.
2013-08-12 10:12 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Snowden again.. Why?
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Lol--well, that's the perfect conspiracy you've got there, isn't it? If I never find out or hear about "that" person, it could only be because "THEY" have suppressed the truth, right? It couldn't possibly be because there is no "that" person, right? Seems like I'm not the only one with blinders on.

Nice. You are usually much more reasoned that this. I don't do conspiracies. Real life is good enough. I mean hell, no police department has ever framed anyone. No body has ever been put to death because of an over zealous prosecutor. No law enforcment agency has used their wieght to harm anyone. No government has ever done anything wrong. I mean hell... the presumption if innocence is a pretty outdated way of thinking... something that can't possibly have any bearing in the modern age. Undecided

It isn't my job to prove to the government why I need protections... I already have them garanteed. It is their job to prove why they get to ignore them. And as terrible as 9/11 was, your 3000 people do not get to wipe out the civil liberties of millions.

Hell, those pescky court trials get in the way too... who the heck needs them in the Constitution? What the heck were they smoking back then?




Ok, first of all "your 3000 people"? WTH does that mean? They aren't "my" 3000 people. They're dead Americans. I'm pretty sure that means they belong to all of us, no?

You've stood up an awful lot of straw men, but I'll take a whack at it:

No, these things happen all the time. And have BEEN happening as long as this country has been in existence (though certainly a lot less than they happen in a lot of other countries). What Snowden has exposed is somewhat concerning, but I'm much more concerned about the kinds of things you've named in your examples that dramatically and sometimes irreversably affect people's lives every day that don't get NEARLY the amount of attention that this issue has garnered. Line up a thousand people who are screaming about Snowdon and the NSA and try to get them interested in something like the "stop-and-frisk" policy in NYC or other much more impactful, everday examples of governmental overreaching and you'll get glazed eyeballs and hear crickets. Why? Because most (not all) of the people who are screaming about the NSA don't actuallycare a whit about the NSA--this is about embarrassing Obama and trying to win the next election.

Limiting the NSA's ability to catch terrorists isn't going to prevent cops from acting inappropriately, or prosecutors from railroading suspects for political gain. All it's going to do is potentially diminish our ability to prevent another terrorist attack.


jmk-brooklyn, please stop trying to make this issue about Mr. Obama, because its not. The vast majority I talk to are concerned about their constitutional rights PERIOD. I am not willing to have ANY secret courts deciding ANYTHING or the NSA storing everything that crosses the airways, its just wrong and not the way our system was set up in the constitution. As far as NYC, it seems that the loss of freedom and liberty are just an accepted way of life when compared to my very rural existence. I don't want to live in a place where I can be stopped and frisked without probable cause, be searched to attend a New Years celebration, whether I can carry a gun, what type of gun I can own, how much gas I can store at home and the list of lost liberties goes on and on. Sure, the politicians can give you the old public safety diatribe, but its still a loss of liberty. Perhaps when one lives in a place where true freedom is but a memory, it is difficult to see why any further loss of liberty is such a big issue to others.

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