General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Group rides and drafting Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2013-07-23 9:08 AM

User image

Member
560
5002525
Utah
Subject: Group rides and drafting
I rode with several women in my neighborhood this morning for the first time. I usually train solo or maybe with one other person, but this was my first time in a group. I consider myself an average cyclist, usually MOP in my race splits, and I have made a ton of improvements in the past year. However, I had my azz handed to me this morning. I couldn't keep up even though I was going 17-19 mph. They kept saying if I would draft I would be fine. I couldn't bring myself to get my wheel that close to theirs, it scared the hell out of me to be that close! I finally decided it wasn't worth killing myself to keep up and was lagging a good half mile behind. At the next stop light I told them to enjoy the rest of their ride and I headed back deflated and butt kicked!

If drafting something I should learn? Or is it like flip turns, where when it comes to races you can't do it anyway, so why bother? I do enjoy training bymyself or with one other person, but I was clearly out of my league with this group this morning. Thoughts? I can see the benenf of training with people slightly better than you, to push you, but this wasn't even remotely fun trying to keep up.


2013-07-23 9:20 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

User image

Expert
1224
1000100100
Is this Heaven? No, it's Iowa.
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

I love riding in groups and drafting.  Most of my training is solo on my tri bike but I will occassionally jump in with the roadies and grab a wheel.  I would say practice more with them if you can.  Eventually you will get comfortable with it and start to enjoy it.  I truly think it makes me a better cyclist anyways.  It forces you to focus on the road, the wheel in front of you, reaction times, etc. 

And that bit on the flip turns hurt my feelings....   Wink

2013-07-23 9:21 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

User image

Veteran
706
500100100
Illinois
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Welcome to group rides.

I classify drafting as a bike handling skill, not necessarily a "I will suck wheel this ride and be lazy" situation. It's also a lot more fun to ride in the group, generally safer, and more sociable.

I try to focus on the middle of the shoulder blades of the person in front of me, instead of the wheel.

I've also found that, when trying to get back into the draft, it's easier to increase your cadence slightly to make up the difference, as opposed to jumping it a bit. At 17mph, that's 25 feet per second, so closing a 5 foot gap doesn't take much.

The most important thing is to be smooth and communicate. The group will push you harder, faster, and make you stronger - and at the same time, will shelter you on rough days.

Also, there is nothing more humbling than getting dropped 25 miles from home. It sucks, it happens, and it's a lesson.

Another thing - try to stay in the middle of the group until you become accustomed to the group - its easier to stay in the draft, and harder to get dropped. Let them know you're new to group riding, and most folks will happily give you pointers.
2013-07-23 9:25 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Do enough group riding so that it's very easy for you to operate around others. Races aren't groups, but the familiarity with being in close proximity can help quite noticeably. So for the group riding, drafting is part of it, but the familiarity is the bigger thing. How hard you end up working depends on your match to the group, but that is another thing.
2013-07-23 9:29 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

User image

Champion
10668
500050005001002525
Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

Originally posted by KatieLimb Or is it like flip turns, where when it comes to races you can't do it anyway, so why bother?

I've never understood this mentality, and applying this faulty logic to bike training makes even less sense.

Were you working harder to stay with the group? Then it is beneficial to learn to draft.

What is it that makes you so nervous? Why do you think that drafting equates to killing yourself?

First off, be smooth. Relax. Keep your arms loose. Keep your front wheel 6" or so to either side and about 12-18" or so behind the wheel in front of you. If you find yourself creeping up on that wheel, ease the pedals a bit or coast for a second or two, move a little more off line from that wheel, and match speed. If you find yourself creeping backwards, move more in line with the wheel, increase the pressure on the pedals a bit and match speeds again. DO NOT hit the brakes or stand up to sprint back onto the draft -- that will just cause problems for the people behind you. Keep your head up and be aware of what's going on around you.

There's a certain amount of trust involved -- trusting that the people you're riding with know the above as well. Being in a well-oiled group is a fun experience. You'll go farther, faster, and if it becomes a hammer fest, you'll get a FAR harder workout than you ever could solo, and be having so much fun you don't ever realize it.

2013-07-23 9:33 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

User image

Extreme Veteran
929
50010010010010025
, Kobenhavns Kommune
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Initially I've been against group riding (but pro flip turns! :P) and I absolutely share the discomfort of not being able to look ahead. But I've changed my opinion, group riding - and not just the drafting - is a useful skill, like knowing to circle swim in the pool.

Where I ride lots of groups go too, and I often find myself not being able to pass or being sucked up by a group for a few miles and it's common that small groups form spontaneously. I enjoy the chance to get some tips from more experienced rides about routes and stuff.

You don't have to be at 2" wheel to wheel to draft, you'll get the draft once you get within a few feet of the next rider, and the bigger the group the greater the distance can be where you still enjoy the draft.

BR


2013-07-23 9:50 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2013-07-23 9:51 AM
in reply to: erik.norgaard

Champion
34263
500050005000500050005000200020001001002525
Chicago
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
I've been doing tris for about 7 or 8 years now and I can't get comfortable on group rides. I have no problem drafting and I usually can keep up unless I'm with a group of hardcore cyclists, but I choose not to because the close proximity makes me nervous. Really, it's a personal preference. Do what makes you feel comfortable and don't try to do something you don't want to do. Square peg, round hole and all that.
2013-07-23 10:53 AM
in reply to: briderdt

Expert
3126
2000100010025
Boise, ID
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by briderdt

Originally posted by KatieLimb Or is it like flip turns, where when it comes to races you can't do it anyway, so why bother?

 You'll go farther, faster, and if it becomes a hammer fest, you'll get a FAR harder workout than you ever could solo, and be having so much fun you don't ever realize it.

This. I also started group riding this year. I told everyone before the first ride that I was new and they helped me learn how to become a safe addition to the group. Now I ride with them every weeks sometimes more than once a week and it is great! I am in the best cycling shape I have ever been in. I work harder trying to keep from getting dropped than I ever have riding solo. 

Give it a shot for a month or two and see how you like it. If you still hate it then forget it and ride solo. But if you really give it a chance you might find you will be challenged and become a much better cyclist. 

2013-07-23 10:56 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

Veteran
1384
1000100100100252525
Panama City, FL
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
You don't have to be wheel to wheel to get a good benefit. Maybe a wheel length or 2 and you still get a good draft. Some of the funnest rides I do are with buddies and we all take turns up front "pulling" and we all draft. It makes a significant difference-

You just have to pay attention and really communicate well about debri in road, slowing, braking etc.
2013-07-23 11:09 AM
in reply to: mr2tony

Master
2946
200050010010010010025
Centennial, CO
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

Originally posted by mr2tony I've been doing tris for about 7 or 8 years now and I can't get comfortable on group rides. I have no problem drafting and I usually can keep up unless I'm with a group of hardcore cyclists, but I choose not to because the close proximity makes me nervous. Really, it's a personal preference. Do what makes you feel comfortable and don't try to do something you don't want to do. Square peg, round hole and all that.

Geez Tony, this could be the same post you left for the person about wetsuits.  Just switch drafting and swimming and cyclists to swimmers.  Seems your not very comfortable.  

Guess I just happened to read your two posts back to back today. 



2013-07-23 11:21 AM
in reply to: KatieLimb

Alpharetta, Georgia
Bronze member
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

I'm on the fence when it comes to groups. The times I've gone out with groups I've experienced what you did.

I realize that riding with faster folks would push me and make me a better cyclist, I really do. However I feel that my time is better spent getting in a solid solo workout and not feeling frustrated and potentially pushing myself to the point of injury or unnecessary fatigue.

I've also been on the OTHER end where I was one of the faster riders and frankly it's equally as frustrating having to stop and wait for others every mile. I think if you can find a group that is just slightly faster than you - that would be ideal. But vastly faster or vastly slower is not a good use of training time, IMO.

2013-07-23 11:26 AM
in reply to: lisac957

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
You can like them or hate them, but you will become a better cyclist by riding in a group regularly.....there really is no argument. 
2013-07-23 11:30 AM
in reply to: velocomp

Champion
34263
500050005000500050005000200020001001002525
Chicago
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by velocomp

Originally posted by mr2tony I've been doing tris for about 7 or 8 years now and I can't get comfortable on group rides. I have no problem drafting and I usually can keep up unless I'm with a group of hardcore cyclists, but I choose not to because the close proximity makes me nervous. Really, it's a personal preference. Do what makes you feel comfortable and don't try to do something you don't want to do. Square peg, round hole and all that.

Geez Tony, this could be the same post you left for the person about wetsuits.  Just switch drafting and swimming and cyclists to swimmers.  Seems your not very comfortable.  

Guess I just happened to read your two posts back to back today. 




Actually, that's a very good point!!!

I'm not comfortable swimming sans wetsuit and I'm not comfortable riding in a pack. I guess I won't be doing any ITU races anytime soon!
2013-07-23 1:30 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Left Brain

You can like them or hate them, but you will become a better cyclist by riding in a group regularly.....there really is no argument. 


And it makes drinking beer in the bar after your ride more fun.

2013-07-23 1:49 PM
in reply to: 0

Veteran
214
100100
, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
I group ride every Sunday. Like others has said, it makes you better at bike handling, gear selection, establishing a cadence, etc. I also find that the push of a group workout make me work harder. Plus, the post-ride coffee and chat are always pleasant. And it will help you on race day...but just don't tell anyone.

There is still a draft effect, albeit a small one, when you are trailing the rider in front of you at USAT-prescribed distances. As you learn to draft in a group, you will begin to feel the pocket of air. On the tri course, you can search it out, and learn to legally use it. This took me a while (many, many months), much like learning to feel the flow of water in the pool, but once you gain the skill, it will help.

And I don't flip turn, except when the swim leg of a race is in a pool.

Edited by dipboss 2013-07-23 1:50 PM


2013-07-23 1:56 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

If you simply work on your handling skills and confidence...to the point that you're able to ride within 2 feet of the wheel in front of you...you'll find it much much easier to hang on to the group.  Those who try to draft by leaving a 3-6 foot gap are going to need way more power to hang on.

When I'm in a really hard group ride with other strong roadies, I'm drafting 6-12 inches from the wheel in front of me to maximize the draft benefit...because I'm pushing just below threshold in the draft and well above threshold when in front.  If I tried to ride with those guys by handing 3+ feet back...I'd get shot off the back within 15 minutes.

2013-07-23 2:25 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

Extreme Veteran
3025
2000100025
Maryland
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by Left Brain

You can like them or hate them, but you will become a better cyclist by riding in a group regularly.....there really is no argument. 


And it makes drinking beer in the bar after your ride more fun.




both of these are spot on.

i credit group rides from making me a 22 mph bike split guy into a 24 mph bike split guy. Sometimes it takes the shame of being dropped to really learn how to suffer. and becoming a roadie really improves your handling and overall bike knowledge, something that triathletes tend to lack.
2013-07-25 2:34 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

Member
20

Rowlett, TX (Dallas area)
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Explain something to me... From what I'm reading, it seems that everyone is saying that you get to be a faster cyclist by riding with a group. Yet at the same time everyone keeps mentioning one big benefit of riding with a group is drafting. So are you going faster because you're drafting? And if so, then how does that actually help you in a race where you can't draft? Wouldn't it benefit you more to ride alone and work on your cycling skills without drafting? I'm not the most experienced cyclist so I may be way off with this thinking.
2013-07-25 2:41 PM
in reply to: jec03

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

Originally posted by jec03 Explain something to me... From what I'm reading, it seems that everyone is saying that you get to be a faster cyclist by riding with a group. Yet at the same time everyone keeps mentioning one big benefit of riding with a group is drafting. So are you going faster because you're drafting? And if so, then how does that actually help you in a race where you can't draft? Wouldn't it benefit you more to ride alone and work on your cycling skills without drafting? I'm not the most experienced cyclist so I may be way off with this thinking.

You work like crazy to stay in the draft of the group. Often times it will be harder than you would have gone on your own. The draft will help you go faster, but the effort put in to stay in that draft when the guys in front decide to go is what makes you stronger.

That and the ability to handle oneself better in a crowd. A LOT better.

2013-07-25 2:45 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

Elite
5145
500010025
Cleveland
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Left Brain You can like them or hate them, but you will become a better cyclist by riding in a group regularly.....there really is no argument. 
And it makes drinking beer in the bar after your ride more fun.

 

George Thorogood disagrees.

 

 

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.



2013-07-25 2:46 PM
in reply to: 0

Pro
4578
20002000500252525
Vancouver, BC
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Basically, you become used to riding faster by riding faster.

Edited by jeng 2013-07-25 2:46 PM
2013-07-25 2:48 PM
in reply to: KatieLimb

Champion
10668
500050005001002525
Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
A rhetorical question to every one who thinks there's no benefit to training in a draft when you can't draft in a race: Why do bike racers use motorpacing to train their TT?
2013-07-25 2:49 PM
in reply to: cgregg

Pro
15655
5000500050005001002525
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by cgregg

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Left Brain You can like them or hate them, but you will become a better cyclist by riding in a group regularly.....there really is no argument. 
And it makes drinking beer in the bar after your ride more fun.

 

George Thorogood disagrees.

 

 

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

That's also why you do it......so you can suffer just a bit longer with wind resistance at the front of the pack than you could normally, and you can do it more often....then go back and wait your turn again.  if you are riding with a group that you can keep up with without drafting and taking your turn pulling then you are in the wrong group.....period.  Again.....this is not an arguable point....you get faster riding with a group than you do alone (once you find the right group).  As a huge benefit, your bike skills also improve.

2013-07-25 2:53 PM
in reply to: cgregg

Master
10208
50005000100100
Northern IL
Subject: RE: Group rides and drafting
Originally posted by cgregg

I've never done any group rides, but I've also never had a problem pushing myself when riding solo.  That said, I would like to start riding with people that are faster than me, but I don't want to be in their draft when I do it.  I want to suffer the full bit of wind resistance.

Or so you think ... Wink

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Group rides and drafting Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2