General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane Rss Feed  
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2013-08-28 4:42 AM


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Subject: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Hi Guys,

I've signed up for my first HIM next august, this leaves me a lot of time to get prepared. I have an ambition to really push the boat out and try to get a sub 5:00. Am I crazy or is the achievable with good training? What plan would you guys prepare, I want to spend the next couple of months working on my swimming and biking and then in February/March begin the Don Fink Competitive plan but cut it by 5 or 6 weeks. Is this a good idea? I work from home so have the time to dedicate myself to training.


2013-08-28 4:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
nm

Edited by Experior 2013-08-28 5:10 AM
2013-08-28 5:35 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
depends on a lot of things... how fit are you now, what are some times swimming/biking/running you've got to start with, how many hours can you put in every week (without getting hurt or burnt out) can you pull it all together on race day, what course are you planning to race?

All those things (and a LOT more) need to be addressed before you start thinking about "sub" whatever. It's definitely possible though.
2013-08-28 6:38 AM
in reply to: orcrpie


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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
In my opinion, being a good swimmer, a very good biker, and a great runner is the equation. Then improve until race day. If in recent history, you happened to be a college 10K champ, that would be nice. Sub 5 is do-able.
2013-08-28 6:48 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
I sub 5'd my first HIM. I have not been able to repeat. It is not an insane quest, just difficult.
2013-08-28 7:06 AM
in reply to: Leegoocrap

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane

Originally posted by Leegoocrap depends on a lot of things... how fit are you now, what are some times swimming/biking/running you've got to start with, how many hours can you put in every week (without getting hurt or burnt out) can you pull it all together on race day, what course are you planning to race? All those things (and a LOT more) need to be addressed before you start thinking about "sub" whatever. It's definitely possible though.

Having the info that Chris listed would help us guide you on this. 

There are lots of different combos to get sub 5, and you can play around with a race calculator to see how you could theoretically get there.  As others have said being above average in all three will be the most likely route to sub five.  Assuming an above average performance in all three, with none of the legs being particularly outstanding, you might be looking at times like:

1:37/100yds on the swim

21.5mph on the bike

8 minute miles on the run

Transitions < 2 minutes each

Depending on the athlete that can be totally doable or those can be dream numbers :)

 



2013-08-28 7:20 AM
in reply to: #4840818


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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
I had a 5:08 for my first HIM.
It's doable but work on hard bricks. those workouts were key for me
2013-08-28 7:40 AM
in reply to: switch

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Originally posted by switch Assuming an above average performance in all three, with none of the legs being particularly outstanding, you might be looking at times like:

1:37/100yds on the swim

21.5mph on the bike

8 minute miles on the run

Transitions < 2 minutes each

Depending on the athlete that can be totally doable or those can be dream numbers

 




Well, not like I was thinking about going sub 5 when I sign up for my first HIM, but seeing those numbers I now know that I have no shot. Seeing those type of numbers really puts things in perspective.
2013-08-28 7:54 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
very doable as long as you don't do what i did and crush the bike and blow up on the run.
2013-08-28 8:47 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Totally possible but what is your background, what HIM did you sign up for, what is your plan, etc. These are all many variables you must consider when trying to achieve your goal.

I highly suggest if you are hell bent on breaking sub 5 to do some benchmark workouts as you build up to your race. For example

Swim
10x200 w/ 15 seconds rest.

With the above random workout if your goal is to swim 1:30/10 yards in the race and you are doing this at 1:40/100 then you will come up short on your swim goal

Run
They say that you can run within about 10% of your open HM time, what is it? If you are shooting for a 1:50 run, but can't run sub 8 min/miles in training you probable don't have the fitness, but if you can run sub 7:15 miles in training, can you back that up with a strong bike effort?

Do you have a power meter? This is the best way to train, IMO, on the bike to measure improvements, gauge progress, etc.
2013-08-28 8:58 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Totally do-able. In my first tri season I went almost exactly 5 flat in my first attempt at a HIM and I'm by no means a good athlete. I came from a running background so I spent a lot of time focused on bike training before the race. I also picked a flat course which helped a lot.


2013-08-28 9:01 AM
in reply to: Patrick E

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Originally posted by Patrick E

Totally do-able. In my first tri season I went almost exactly 5 flat in my first attempt at a HIM and I'm by no means a good athlete. I came from a running background so I spent a lot of time focused on bike training before the race. I also picked a flat course which helped a lot.


Only on triathlon related forums is going 5 flat in one's first HIM considered being "by no means a good athlete."
2013-08-28 9:06 AM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Along with your fitness, the course is a factor. The two really are intertwined.

The swim isn't so much a factor here, but the bike and run elevation change can make a huge difference. On hilly courses the little guys can do better, since there just isn't as much weight to push over the hills. On the flats, it's more aerodynamics.

Likewise if you're more a sprinter on the bike, i.e. can put out big power for short times, recover, do it again, etc. then the hills will hurt less. Some are better at setting the cruise control and keeping the same power for hours. That's your flat course racer.

Heat is another factor; how well you do in the heat can make a difference if the race is in warm/humid conditions.

My first HIM was 5:07, and might have been faster, had I not pushed the bike as hard. I was frying on the run. However it was also in the 90's with Maryland Humidity, so maybe that was all I had anyway.



2013-08-28 9:12 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
For an average course

a) I would say you need to be a sub 25' 1500m swimmer
b) You need 3.5 watts/kg on the bike
c) You need to be a 51 VDOT on the run

You need the right load and mix of training.
You need to execute properly.

If you are stronger in one area, you can be a bit weaker in another.
2013-08-28 9:18 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
5:06 in my first HIM and I swim like I am towing a 20 lb anchor..........

If you are willing to dedicate the time and consistently follow a plan, sure, it can be done. It appears that you have the time, as long as you actually use some of it to train.

Of course, if you are currently swimming 2:15/100, biking 16 MPH and run 9:30 miles, your quest might be a little tougher.


Start logging workouts here on BT's training log so people can evaluate your training and give you advice based on data.

Edited by wannabefaster 2013-08-28 9:19 AM
2013-08-28 9:26 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
I did 4:37 in my first HIM. That was my first and only to date but I could have went faster had I hydrated more on the bike and not paid for it on the run. Just my .02 cents. At the end of the day though it comes down to how fit you are now and how much better you can get once race day comes.


2013-08-28 10:00 AM
in reply to: Bevie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
I pulled off a 4:58 on my first HIM earlier this year, and thats including a tough swim and a meltdown on the run. Its definitely possible. Just focus on building a huge base in the months leading up to the race.
2013-08-28 11:05 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane

As the others have mentioned, there are so many variables to not only your background, training, but even the weather can play a role.

I trained really hard for my first HIM and felt pretty confident that I could go sub 5:00.  I had an athletic background so the speed necessary to do it came on pretty easy for me.

Then comes race day and the winds are whipping at near 30mph at race start and I was swimming through 4+ feet swells and even sighted the wrong buoy coming back.  crap 43 minute swim...

Now the bike turns into a sufferfest video due to the wind.  I still manage to crank out a 2:43 (20.5) bike, even with the 30mph winds, but now I'm off pace even more and my legs are toast now because I was pushing so hard.  crap...

Then comes the run, which just so happens to be on the record hottest day in decades.  97 degrees and absolutely roasting.  My PR open marathon time is a 1:36, but I end up cooking to death and finish with a 2:12 run...  uggh

At least my transitions were good at 2:05 & 1:35.  

Finished with a 5:43

So, can it be done?  Absolutely, but even when you do everything right it still may not happen.

2013-08-28 11:20 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
As everyone else has asked, what are some current times you are laying down? If you can run great, bike ok but swim like crap (me) it's not happening the first time out. If you can run half a&&, bike ok and swim pretty darn good, certainly possible.
2013-08-28 11:25 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
In California (Wildflower, Oceanside, and Vineman) I'm going to say "probably not".
2013-08-28 11:34 AM
in reply to: orcrpie

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
What are your OLY times - swim/bike/run and what about open HM times? Thanks. Anything is possible with enough work.


2013-08-28 1:10 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Originally posted by tuwood

 

My PR open marathon time is a 1:36, but I end up cooking to death and finish with a 2:12 run...  uggh

 

That's pretty fast...Wink

Mark

2013-08-28 1:38 PM
in reply to: thebigb

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Originally posted by thebigb

As everyone else has asked, what are some current times you are laying down? If you can run great, bike ok but swim like crap (me) it's not happening the first time out. If you can run half a&&, bike ok and swim pretty darn good, certainly possible.


umm, what? If anything the HIM and IM distances are weighted significantly toward the bike and the run. If there is any room for weakness its on the swim.
2013-08-28 1:54 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane

Originally posted by marcag For an average course a) I would say you need to be a sub 25' 1500m swimmer b) You need 3.5 watts/kg on the bike c) You need to be a 51 VDOT on the run You need the right load and mix of training. You need to execute properly. If you are stronger in one area, you can be a bit weaker in another.

Marc, I laughed when I saw this as I'll be training to go sub 5 next year, and I don't know my answer to b or c.  You and your damn numbers! And graphs! And data! ;)

 

2013-08-28 2:01 PM
in reply to: JZig

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Subject: RE: Sub 5:00 for first HIM, realistic or insane
Originally posted by JZig

Originally posted by thebigb

As everyone else has asked, what are some current times you are laying down? If you can run great, bike ok but swim like crap (me) it's not happening the first time out. If you can run half a&&, bike ok and swim pretty darn good, certainly possible.


umm, what? If anything the HIM and IM distances are weighted significantly toward the bike and the run. If there is any room for weakness its on the swim.


Don't agree. If you can't get out of the water then it's over. I'll offer up a personal anecdote: I'm an ok cyclist but working hard to improve that. I'm also a low 1:20 half marathoner and ran a 3:07 full in January in which I was pacing a friend, no doubt could have gone sub 3 on that attempt with room to spare. Thanks to being an adult onset swimmer and some panic/sighting/being gassed when out of the water I didn't get close to a sub 5 on my first attempt nor my second. Third attempt was closer but some very less than ideal lake conditions ended up costing me again. If I was a decent swimmer that was comfortable in the water in a race situation it would probably be a very different story. There is no recovery when you come out of the water already tanked, none.
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