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OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help
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 2013-09-08 9:26 AM |
Regular  287   Levittown, PA |  Subject: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for helpWas at OWS practice yesterday at a nearby lake. There are usually several kayakers lined up along the sides of the course, but yesterday there was just one. I just got done swimming and had taken my wetsuit off when I heard a blood curdling scream for help. It was really frightening. Arms flailing and screaming for help probably about 6 times. You could hear the fear in their voice. The 1 kayaker was about 75 yards away. They got over to him, but it took about 20 seconds or so, which seemed like an eternity. There was a buoy close by and the swimmer tried to grab it but kept slipping off. It turns out they had no wetsuit on and they were a beginner swimmer and got a bad leg crap. My question is this. I just started swimming a few months ago but feel pretty confident in the water. If I had been swimming by with my wetsuit on, would it have been safe to try and help this swimmer. I think my gut instinct would have been to stop and help. I know it is dangerous but I couldn't live with myself if i was close by and did nothing. With the wetsuit on, I know I would at least have the added help of the buoyancy. Just wondering if anybody has been in this spot themselves and helped or what you did. I was actually standing next to the guys wife when it happened and she remained pretty calm which I couldn't believe. If that was my wife I would have been freaking out. Just curious about your thoughts on what is the best thing to do in that situation, granted that you are close enough to the person as its happening. Edited by spiderjunior 2013-09-08 9:28 AM |
| 2013-09-08 10:07 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Champion 19812   MA | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Great question of what you can actually do to help someone having trouble swimming? Folks who in full on panic, will flail about and grab anything/anyone they can often putting them in distress as well. My good friend Marianne swims with a noodle on a over the shoulder harness not for her but for others she swims with as she often helps newbies get swim confidence when learning to owe. We talk about what we would do and we'd give them the float and move away. I have a rescue can that works similar way but is harder to swim with. Learning to float is an important skill all swimmers should be competent in. Maybe someone with life saving experience can chime in. |
| 2013-09-08 10:10 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Member 79 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Honestly it might not be the safest thing to do depending on how badly the person was panicking as they could try grab/flail hit you and/or pull you down. But having said that if I was close and in my wetsuit I would have attempted to help, I just couldn't go by someone that is in need of immediate help and be 'ok' with myself later. As far as helping though i would be sure to not get too close to them right off but instead talk to them, try to calm them down, find what the problem is- then only if I thought they wouldn't un-intenntionaly hurt me would I get close enough for contact. Oh as a person that has on too many occasions been thrown into emergency situations, it does no good to freak out. Stay calm, do what you gotta do...then when its all said in done sit down with a beer and go 'holy crap I cant believe that happened' |
| 2013-09-08 10:27 AM in reply to: PowerRuff |
Expert 1263 Wendell, NC | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Easy to come up with ideas in retrospect. Heat of the battle is different. But setting up scenarios in one's head before a crises tends to help create wise moves during the panic vortex. #1 rule: Do not get caught up in the vortex. If there were no kayaker, one could have grabbed the buoy, placed it between you and the swimmer and assisted the swimmer in holding onto the buoy.....perhaps. Keeping a distance, talking to the swimmer and waiting for the kayaker would be best-since there was a boat available. |
| 2013-09-08 10:31 AM in reply to: La Tortuga |
Expert 1263 Wendell, NC | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help p.s. A friend tells a story of when he was caught in a rip current at the beach, fighting it, tiring, panicking. Thought he was going to drown. A lifeguard approached, kept his distance, spoke to him in calming words, got him to settle down a bit, then told him "now stand up". He was in about 4 feet of water. |
| 2013-09-08 10:32 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 1300 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help What probably would've happened is he would've latched onto you and taken you under. If you couldn't get away then you both would end up having a bad day. If you're not a strong swimmer it's dangerous to go out to help but understand you don't want to stand bye. Best thing would to try and find something to throw them. There's different techniques for taking control when you reach the victim to how to escape their clutch if they get ahold of you. |
| 2013-09-08 10:45 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Extreme Veteran 1136 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help I was a lifeguard in my younger days and I will say that unless you are trained to control this type of situation and a strong swimmer you will likely be put into an emergency situation of your own. The panicking individual will try to climb up you and will then push you both underwater. The marginal bouyancy of a wetsuit is not enough to use as a lifesaving device for two people. The previous comments about using the available resources (bouy, noodle, etc) to offer as help, but staying out of reach, are spot on. |
| 2013-09-08 10:55 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Extreme Veteran 929 , Kobenhavns Kommune | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help As mentioned, when somebody panics they will grab onto anything/anyone to push them self out of the water, which may mean pushing the one coming to their rescue under the water. I once took a course for pool life guard and we were taught tricks to wrestle free again. A trick was to get under water, once they find you don't support them they'll loose their grip. Panicking people 1) are difficult to help and 2) stay up as long as they panic. So, what you can do is to go for their rescue but stay clear at a safe distance as long as they're still panicking, try to calm them down, tell them that you're there to help and that they need to relax etc. Once they either calm down or get exhausted from all the panicking it's much easier and safe to rescue them. But, don't try to be a hero if you don't know how to handle the situation, nobody wants two people drowning. |
| 2013-09-08 11:03 AM in reply to: wbattaile |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by wbattaile I will say that unless you are trained to control this type of situation and a strong swimmer you will likely be put into an emergency situation of your own. The panicking individual will try to climb up you and will then push you both underwater. +1, this is like lesson #1 in lifeguard school. So while it sounds harsh to say you should not help, doing so may end badly (No good deed goes unpunished). I tend to think that those of use that are comfortable in the water should take a 2 day red cross lifeguard class as a public service. Might just save a loved one some day. |
| 2013-09-08 11:25 AM in reply to: erik.norgaard |
Member 432 Calgary, AB | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by erik.norgaard As mentioned, when somebody panics they will grab onto anything/anyone to push them self out of the water, which may mean pushing the one coming to their rescue under the water. I once took a course for pool life guard and we were taught tricks to wrestle free again. A trick was to get under water, once they find you don't support them they'll loose their grip. Panicking people 1) are difficult to help and 2) stay up as long as they panic. So, what you can do is to go for their rescue but stay clear at a safe distance as long as they're still panicking, try to calm them down, tell them that you're there to help and that they need to relax etc. Once they either calm down or get exhausted from all the panicking it's much easier and safe to rescue them. But, don't try to be a hero if you don't know how to handle the situation, nobody wants two people drowning.
I did a similar lifeguarding course in high school. Never worked as a lifeguard but I still remember a lot of the training. I have fond memories of the "get under water" trick -- we used to practice choke holds from behind (the most dangerous situation) -- the preferred method was just to lie back and float on top of the victim until s/he ran out of breath and let go. The above tips are spot on -- never turn a single drowning into a multiple drowning. One additional trick that they did teach us as a last resort: If you have to approach them, and if you don't have any object at your disposal -- get to within ~5 feet (close, but out of arms' reach) and flip onto your back, legs pointing toward the victim. Then slowly scull your way closer to them (while talking to them, calming them down, etc.) If they grab your leg, that might be enough to calm them down. If it's not, you're in a much stronger position to kick them away. And if they're flailing a lot, you're a lot less vulnerable to a punch / kick to the head or a choke hold. |
| 2013-09-08 11:37 AM in reply to: Oysterboy |
| 172 Kenmore, Washington | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help I took classes and got certified as a lifeguard many years ago. We practiced these types of situations and let me tell you, this is not something you want to try unless you are ready to risk your life. You will have to wrestle the victim to get into the right position to pull them to shore. Keeping a short distance and calming them down is the best approach. If you want to see how it's done, search Youtube for Lifeguard Towing. It's a one handed side stroke + flutter kick, while you hold the victim either under their chin or under their shoulder. |
| 2013-09-08 11:41 AM in reply to: Hoos |
Regular 146 Columbus | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help We also used to practice "escapes" in lifeguarding class and inservices. The one I remember the best was if you are facing the victim they will probably wrap their arms around your head or neck. Grab them at both armpits, push them up hard (which pushes yourself underwater) and use the force to swim backwards away from them. Everyone else's advice is spot on- try to find something to give them and to be between you and them. Now even lifeguards are trained to use objects (rescue tubes) in their rescues - rescuing someone without anything to assist you can be really dangerous. |
| 2013-09-08 11:51 AM in reply to: pnwdan |
Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by pnwdan let me tell you, this is not something you want to try unless you are ready to risk your life. Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like an overwhelming consensus is to just stay clear which I completely understand. Would just be really hard to do that when you hear somebody screaming in horror as I did yesterday, but when you read the comments above by pnwdan it kind of puts things in perspective. |
| 2013-09-08 2:18 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Veteran 154 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help In high school and college I worked as a lifeguard...and life guard instructor.. If you are not trained stay away. I'm a strong swimmer had the training and am a big guy, today 30 yrs from my lifeguard prime I would be very hesitant to approach a panicked swimmer unless I was 100% sure I was larger/stronger than them and could overpower them. Given that with no training I'd make several suggestions... 1)Can you push a buoy, board, wetsuit... swim noodle something that floats to the panicked swimmer without getting within reach, do so... (Corollary if you do OWS with inexperienced people not towing some kind of buoy borders on negligence.) 2)If you can't do #1, stay close but out of reach when I say out of reach, I mean out of reach YOUR LIFE DEPENDS on this. When they stop struggling tow the unconscious person ashore and revive them on the beach. Double drownings are far too common... (Probably useful to practice towing other swimmers, not really an easy skill to improvise...) This may sound harsh, but realize that one of the techniques taught for open water life saving is if they over power you , push them under water till they stop struggling, It may come down to you or them and if your unconscious you can't help anybody. |
| 2013-09-08 3:20 PM in reply to: pbreed |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help I spent 12 years training and working as a lifeguard, with multiple rescues. Do not get close, you would both go under! The rules are reach- throw - go if you can't reach them or throw something to them from land you go but only if you know what you are doing. You tube videos are not training- don't fool yourself. Handleing paniced people in the water is very difficult, if you know the techniques you can manage. If they were thrashing and yelling that much he was panacked more than he was in danger. Assuming away from shore and no flotation device to hand him I would have tried to calm him down by talking to him. If he refused to calm down he would eventually exhaust himself, and thats a much safer time to go get him. If you think its hard swimming 1/4 mile try swimming a 1/4 mile with a panaked swimmer under your arm. If you don't know what your doing don't get close, it's better for 1 to drown than 2. you can always flip them over and drag them back when they stop moving. |
| 2013-09-08 7:08 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
New user 115 Rhode Island | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help +1 on all the answers about not getting within their reach. I've never been a lifeguard, but I've practiced panicked swimmer rescue drills getting my rescue diver certification and it can get scary for the rescuer, even in controlled practice scenarios, even when you have an inflated BC on. That limited training came into play this weekend when during a choppy/wavy ocean swim sprint tri a female swimmer (in a full wetsuit) was on the verge of full blown panic when I was swimming by and she was just saying "please help me, help me" and reaching out trying to grab me. I stopped but kept her at more than arm's length away and told her to stay calm, help was coming and I waved to one of the event lifeguards who was nearby on a paddleboard. He got over in less than 10 seconds and she latched onto the board and the lifeguard waved me off, so I continued the swim. I'm glad that 1) I had enough minimum training to know to stay out of her reach and 2) that the swim had plenty of competent lifeguards nearby. |
| 2013-09-08 10:58 PM in reply to: johnmoran |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help I agree with the others about keeping your distance. ESPECIALLY since there was a kayak. Even though 20 seconds may have seemed long, it's better than the wrestling match you would've had even if you controlled it. I was a lifeguard and instructor, and I still would've avoided approaching the person if I thought the kayak was enroute. Oh, and a wetsuit's buoyancy is minimal. Someone climbing on your head will still sink you. |
| 2013-09-08 11:03 PM in reply to: spudone |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help If you want to see how it's done, search Youtube for Lifeguard Towing. It's a one handed side stroke + flutter kick, while you hold the victim either under their chin or under their shoulder. It gets even tougher if the person is bigger / stronger than you. You might have to lock both of your hands together and drag them in just using your scissors kick. It's not a good situation to run out of steam. |
| 2013-09-08 11:16 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
| 128 , California | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by Oysterboy Originally posted by wbattaile I will say that unless you are trained to control this type of situation and a strong swimmer you will likely be put into an emergency situation of your own. The panicking individual will try to climb up you and will then push you both underwater. +1, this is like lesson #1 in lifeguard school. So while it sounds harsh to say you should not help, doing so may end badly (No good deed goes unpunished). I tend to think that those of use that are comfortable in the water should take a 2 day red cross lifeguard class as a public service. Might just save a loved one some day. X2 This is usually the first thing taught in life guarding courses. Unless you are trained you will be risking your life to safe another and no one wants 2 victims in the water. You can throw a floatation device to them, but unless you are a trained lifeguard, do not approach them in the water. Yes, harsh but true. |
| 2013-09-08 11:28 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 1858 Salt Lake City | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help I've been through quite a bit of first responder training, including a lifeguard certification class. To reiterate what others have said, the first rule of responding to an emergency is to make sure you don't make the situation worse by adding yourself as an additional victim. The best option is to throw someone who is panicking something that will float. Incidentally, if the person still has enough energy to kick thrash and yell they've got enough energy to keep themselves afloat for a while longer. When they're truly about to go under they'll be quiet, unable to scream and will look calm because they're completely exhausted. If the person is screaming and flailing you've got time to find something to throw them. As part of the lifeguard and drownproofing class I took the instructor threw all kinds of different things in the water it can be surprising how little it takes to keep someone floating. A discarded gallon jug with the lid on it, or any similar sized plastic container is plenty to keep someone's head above water. Also, in any given scenario where people are in the water recreationally there are probably any number of inflated or styrofoam equipment that can more than do the job regardless of whether its stamped as a "lifesaving device" or not. It may or may not apply to this kind of situation, but when I took the class I was working a job where pretty much all of our vehicles had an easily accessible full sized spare tire. An inflated tire complete with a steel rim is buoyant enough to keep more people floating on it than are physically capable of holding onto the tire. At the moment I'm genuinely curious whether or not a bike tire floats well enough to work... Edited by JZig 2013-09-08 11:31 PM |
| 2013-09-08 11:51 PM in reply to: JZig |
Master 1858 Salt Lake City | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Ok... so now my mind is working overtime thinking about the kinds of stuff a triathlete might have laying around at an OWS. Things I'm thinking might work: Inflated camelbak bladder - in fact this would be almost ideal, just blow into the hose and throw the whole pack out in the water. Bike Helmet Bike wheel Rolled up wetsuit - I'm thinking roll it up like a sleeping bag and tie it with the arms? |
| 2013-09-09 12:13 AM in reply to: JZig |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by JZig I've been through quite a bit of first responder training, including a lifeguard certification class. To reiterate what others have said, the first rule of responding to an emergency is to make sure you don't make the situation worse by adding yourself as an additional victim. The best option is to throw someone who is panicking something that will float. Incidentally, if the person still has enough energy to kick thrash and yell they've got enough energy to keep themselves afloat for a while longer. When they're truly about to go under they'll be quiet, unable to scream and will look calm because they're completely exhausted. If the person is screaming and flailing you've got time to find something to throw them. As part of the lifeguard and drownproofing class I took the instructor threw all kinds of different things in the water it can be surprising how little it takes to keep someone floating. A discarded gallon jug with the lid on it, or any similar sized plastic container is plenty to keep someone's head above water. Also, in any given scenario where people are in the water recreationally there are probably any number of inflated or styrofoam equipment that can more than do the job regardless of whether its stamped as a "lifesaving device" or not. It may or may not apply to this kind of situation, but when I took the class I was working a job where pretty much all of our vehicles had an easily accessible full sized spare tire. An inflated tire complete with a steel rim is buoyant enough to keep more people floating on it than are physically capable of holding onto the tire. At the moment I'm genuinely curious whether or not a bike tire floats well enough to work... That would be my luck......I'm drowning and someone chucks a bike tire at me. Thanks. |
| 2013-09-09 1:29 AM in reply to: wbattaile |
Veteran 177 Berlin, Germany | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by wbattaile I was a lifeguard in my younger days and I will say that unless you are trained to control this type of situation and a strong swimmer you will likely be put into an emergency situation of your own. The panicking individual will try to climb up you and will then push you both underwater. The marginal bouyancy of a wetsuit is not enough to use as a lifesaving device for two people. The previous comments about using the available resources (bouy, noodle, etc) to offer as help, but staying out of reach, are spot on. /\ THIS! as a Rescue Diver I can tell you that without proper training you WILL put yourself in grave danger. A swimmer in panic will grab at anything and for sure put the untrained "rescuer" under. Rescue divers learn and practice tricks and procedures how to deal with a panicking person. Stay at least 5 feet away from the person, or there will be two people that need to be rescued! |
| 2013-09-09 7:58 AM in reply to: JZig |
Expert 1215 Austin, TX | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by JZig Ok... so now my mind is working overtime thinking about the kinds of stuff a triathlete might have laying around at an OWS. Things I'm thinking might work: Inflated camelbak bladder - in fact this would be almost ideal, just blow into the hose and throw the whole pack out in the water. Bike Helmet Bike wheel Rolled up wetsuit - I'm thinking roll it up like a sleeping bag and tie it with the arms? In Scouts we had to inflate a pair of blue jeans. You tie the legs together and cinch the waist if I remember correctly. It actually worked. |
| 2013-09-09 8:05 AM in reply to: Hugh in TX |
| 1159 | Subject: RE: OWS practice. Somebody yelling for help Originally posted by Hugh in TX Originally posted by JZig Ok... so now my mind is working overtime thinking about the kinds of stuff a triathlete might have laying around at an OWS. Things I'm thinking might work: Inflated camelbak bladder - in fact this would be almost ideal, just blow into the hose and throw the whole pack out in the water. Bike Helmet Bike wheel Rolled up wetsuit - I'm thinking roll it up like a sleeping bag and tie it with the arms? In Scouts we had to inflate a pair of blue jeans. You tie the legs together and cinch the waist if I remember correctly. It actually worked. ditto for the Navy - had to do both the top and the legs - to show that we could if need be - its like tie the legs together, then either scope water/air into the pants; or if you are taller pull it over our head (I could never do that one) |
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